Friction Steam Boiler

[rickoff]

Reply to Bren:

Hi Bren,

Thanks for your interest and participation in this thread. Are you currently working on a replication of Lloyd's device, or are you simply giving it some serious thought at this stage?

Have you found the provided information to be adequate enough to enable readers to get a well informed head start on an experiment or replication, or is there anything currently lacking that you feel would be of great benefit to all if it were added in as content? All such constructive ideas are welcomed here, from any readers.

Best regards,

Rick

[brenie]

Rick many thanks once again. If I can get round to making some room in my garage, this has got to be my next 'time absorbing' project. Workspace in garage currently taken by veg-oil recycling.
Must admit the info: so far seems fairly comprehensive, if we can't replicate something worthwhile from this info: we're all doomed.

Regards, Bren

[rickoff]

I would tend to agree with you, Bren. I think we do have enough here to enable people to produce some positive results, and I will keep working on this project to further improve it. New and informing material has been added frequently, and I expect this will continue as more becomes available.

What is the purpose behind your veg-oil recyling project? Are you making bio-diesel fuel, or do you burn it in a waste oil heater?

[brenie]

Hello again Rick, used veg-oil is filtered a couple of time, warmed a little, and left to settle. Myself and friend then plonk it in the 'second mortgage' the cars for our hoped for 40 miles p/g.
The insentive for our endeavour is the fact that diesel in the UK at the moment is = $5.00! a gall.
What with speed cams, parking restrictions, new regs every other month,
fees to enter London by car, and other cities seeing the revenue potential,
it's getting like owning a car in uk= terrorist.
So just being able detour some of the maze, and cut some cost is fun.
Believe me, LLoyd's magic bench inspires hope for the future.

Regards, Bren.

[brenie]

Hi Rick, I got that wrong, clang!
Not $5 a gallon, $7.40. I would leave the car at home if it was'nt for my veg-oil.

Regards, Bren.

[rickoff]

Reply to Bren:

Wow, Bren! That's quite a price for diesel. Here in Maine diesel is much less (about $2.50 a gallon right now), but still relatively expensive compared to gasoline at $1.94 a gallon. Vegetable oil is a great solution for making biodiesel, and any restaurant or fast food outlet nearby that does a lot of deep frying is a great source for the oil. Works great in waste oil heaters or furnaces, too. If someone else hasn't already started a thread here on producing and utilizing biodiesel fuel, I would highly recommend you do that. While it is relatively easy to find a lot of information on the Internet concerning biofuels, I'm sure that many folks would be very interested to see photos and documentation concerning your processing setup.

Best regards,

Rick

[Dude_]

How is everyone who is building this (or even just thinking about it) planning on sourcing 4x4 green wood?

Are you getting green wood and cutting it yourself to the right dimensions? Where are you getting green wood that size and how are you cutting it?

Any ideas?

I was thinking of asking tree cutting companies but I know most sell their wood as firewood after a year of sitting (seasoning).

Thanks,
Darren

[dutchdivco]

First post

Hi, all.This is such a long thread, I hope I don't go over previously covered territory, but having gotten the o.k. to post, I just had to chime in.This is an intriquing idea!! It did occur to me that the 'stranded on a deserted island' way to start a fire, the real difficulties of which are shown so well in Castaway, invoves a similar idea. You don't normally find kiln dried wood on a desert island.So I wondered how is it that this device doesn't ignite the wood. I think it may be because the amount of pressure is relatively light (ask TOM Hanks about that!) This is not something I saw emphasised in the posts, but I think if anyone changes the design, they should probably try to keep the pressure the same.This is a much better way of using the energy stored in wood, as opposed to burning it. That said, I did think about the idea mentioned earlier of a wheel brake rotor;Use an old truck rear axle, Say a G.M 4:10 ratio,1989 or earlier with 1 axle and axle tube removed.Do a disk brake conversion on it, but make the weld on bracket so it holds 2 calipers.A caliper takes up 120 degrees, of the rotors 360 degrees of surface.The shoes rub on both sides of the rotor, with eaqual pressure. (Called 'floating caliper) So you have 4 shoes rubbing on the rotor, and there is an area 120 degrees, where you can put your steam generating apperatus.Any simple hydraulic unit, even a slave cylinder with a simple hand screw adjustment, plumbed with a 'tee' fitting, would enable you to put just enough pressure to generate heat, without stopping the rotor. The disk rotors are made to take this kind of wear, as are the shoes. In fact, on disk brakes, the shoe is always in contact with the rotor, even when your foots off the brake. I recently did a disc brake conversion on my truck, and I was tempted to put a second set of calipers on, as it wouldn't have cost that much more. Finally decided it was overkill.Anyway, some of the posts I saw were suggesting other materials than wood, and the parts are all off the shelf.
Well, now I've 'popped my cherry' with my first post! Some of the threads quickly lose me, as I'm electronically challenged, but this concept is so simple even I could understand it! Jim

[rickoff]

Reply to Darren (Dude):

How is everyone who is building this (or even just thinking about it) planning on sourcing 4x4 green wood?
Darren

The first thing that folks need to think about, when it comes to the wood, is the fact that Lloyd's friction device doesn't require very much of it. For example, the two chunks of wood (shown loaded in the first picture of post #124) will last for 3 full days of continuous use, according to Lloyd, and one cord of wood will last 5 years. Obviously, then, we wouldn't want to purchase a cord of hardwood (unless we also have another need for it) because the wood will no longer be "green" after just a few months of time. So the first step is to determine how much wood you would actually require for perhaps a two month run. That would be roughly 40 chunks of wood the same size as the ones in the photo. Since we know that the rotor is 5 inches in diameter, we can approximately scale the length of the wood chunks to be roughly 11.4 inches each, but let's call it 12 inches for simplicity, as that allows for the saw cuts. That means we would need 40 feet of 4" x 4" sized wood for a two month run. Okay, now I know what some of you are thinking - suppose that we have harsh winters where we live and need about a 6 month supply just to get us through the winter months. What do we do then? Well, I understand those thoughts, because I live in Maine, and winter can last 8 months here. The answer is to procure and cut all the wood before winter sets in, and to store the wood in such a way as to prevent it from drying. With wood cut to 4" x 4" dimension, this is relatively easy to do. Let's assume, for a moment, that you will need a 6 month supply, or 120 pieces. You can stack these wood blocks very neatly on your cellar floor in a stack that is two blocks wide, 12 blocks long, and 5 blocks high. That's 24" x 48" x 20". Pretty small stack, for a winter's supply of heat, huh? There would be no air circulation to the interior surfaces of the stack, so they would not dry out on you. Only the sides and top of the stack would be left exposed to air, and it wouldn't take much ingenuity to cover those surfaces tightly in plastic wrap.

So now that the storage problem is solved, we have to think about Darren's question, which is where will we obtain the wood? The least expensive solution (unless you have your own woodlot) would be to purchase the wood in "tree length" logs from a logger, and then cut them to 4" x 4" size using a relatively inexpensive chainsaw attachment, such as this one:
Amazon.com: Lumber Maker Chainsaw Attachment Turn Wood Logs into 2 X 4s Boards Portable Chain Saw Mill New: Home Improvement
Note that this particular unit's specifications are for cuts up to 3.5 inches, but it may actually be adjustable to 4 inches. Other similar devices can be found (or inexpensively built) that offer wider cuts. Here's a link that tells you how to build and utilize your own lumber cutting chainsaw attachments:
Make your own lumber with a chainsaw mill by Jacqueline Tresl Issue #39

If you choose this method, the excess material that you cut away to expose a 4" x 4" dimension can be utilized for firewood if you have a need for some, or sold to someone else who does have a need for firewood.

Another option, if you don't want to do the chainsaw work, would be to inquire with someone who operates a portable sawmill. Typically, they either cut and sell wood from their own woodlots, or go to a customer site to cut wood to whatever dimension the customer stipulates. Most all of the portable sawmills use a large bandsaw blade to do the cutting, and slice through a log like a knife through butter. Very slick! Here's a video of a small one performing some cuts on a log. This one sells for about $2,600 and would be a great way to cut wood for your friction steamer. It would actually pay for itself in fairly short order if you also used it to cut some dimensional lumber for some customers. Heck, you could easily make a decent living with one of these. In any case, this is the type of unit that most portable sawmill operators are using, and it can easily be loaded onto a trailer for hauling to any jobsite, which could be your back yard.

I hope this post helps to give people some useful ideas. Thanks for the question, Darren.

Best to all,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Jim (dutchdivco):

I wondered how is it that this device doesn't ignite the wood. I think it may be because the amount of pressure is relatively light (ask TOM Hanks about that!) This is not something I saw emphasised in the posts, but I think if anyone changes the design, they should probably try to keep the pressure the same.This is a much better way of using the energy stored in wood, as opposed to burning it.

Some of the threads quickly lose me, as I'm electronically challenged, but this concept is so simple even I could understand it! Jim

Thanks for your participation, Jim. There are two reasons why the wood doesn't burn, and one that you correctly pointed out is the low pressure. As I stated in another recent post, a force of only 10 pounds is required to push each of the wood blocks against the rotor. A 4x4 has 16 square inches of surface area with a flat cut, but when the block conforms to the curve of the 5 inch diameter rotor, it would increase the exposed surface area to more than 20 square inches. Assuming just 20 sq in, though, the pressure to the exposed area would be just 8 ounces per square inch. Very light, indeed. In the Lloyd Tanner - Friction Boiler
video, you see Lloyd pressing the wood blocks against the rotor using what he tells me was "very light hand pressure."

The second reason that the wood does not ignite is because green, unseasoned hardwood is used. The moisture content prevents combustion, while the sticky sap and wood resins probably aid the friction process. Lloyd uses oak, but simply because it was readily available to him. Any unseasoned hardwood will work fine.

Yes, as you point out, this really is a simple and age old concept that is easily understood. Everyone has had some experience with friction. Normally we tend to think in terms of reducing friction whenever possible, but Lloyd's idea puts frictional heat to some really good use.

As to the brake rotor idea, we have discussed that in several posts throughout this thread. As I pointed out recently, this would be worth experimenting with, and best done using a hefty truck rotor. Brake rotors and pads do present some wear problems that don't occur with Lloyd's design. Lloyd tells me that his rotor shows no perceptible wear after extensive use.

Thanks again for your post, Jim, and best regards to you,

Rick

[dutchdivco]

Wood basics

Because of previous posts, thought I should mention; When your buying wood, and you say "hard wood" or "softwood",these terms have NOTHING to do with the hardness of the wood;a hardwood comes from a tree with leaves, a softwood comes from a tree with needles. Balsa wood is classified as a hardwood, and you certainly wouldn't want to use that in Loyds device.
Also, Green lumber is just that; freshly cut."Seasoned" lumber, is more accurately called "air dried".The lumber is stacked in such a way that air has eaqual access to all surfaces, using thin strips of wood as spacers.Depending on the climate, it will eventually have its moisture content drop to around 20-30%(going on memory, so don't hold me to the #'s.Important point; it will not stabilise the way "kiln dried lumber" will, and so will readily absorb moisture from the aptnosphere(sp?) or a soaking.Kiln dried lumber is dried to 7-14%, for hardwood, cabinet grade lumber, 14-20% for "softwoods" like construction grade lumber,(2x4's)at which point it THEORETICALLY is stabilised, and will not absorb significant amounts of moisture, from the aptnosphere.From what I know of wood, the earlier post regarding storing wood should work fine. Storing the wood as described, would probably even work for longer than 6 mos.depending on the humidity levels in the area where the lumber is stored.There are moisture meters available for testing the moisture content of wood.All wood, even kiln dried, does continue to absorb SOME moisture from the air when its humid, and expel it when its dry.This can cause warping and cracking when its happens unevenly.End grain tends to absorb/reject moisture much faster than the other surfaces, so you might want to paint the ends of the wood with shellac. Shouldn't cause a problem when used in loyds device, other than perhaps slightly increasing the friction, and will reduce cracking/splitting of the wood. Jim

[Alana]

Expansion of water

Hi all,

although there is a heated discussion about the character of wood I want to place another subject: The expanion of water.

Lloyds device based on the expansion of water when it gets hot = steam. But let me pose a question: What would happen it you compress air in a cylinder (like in your car)? The air becomes hot. An what would happen if you inject water? It would expand like in Lloyds device. Don't get me wrong: I don't want to say a combustion engine would run with water. I know that it is a difference between steam and gasoline which explode (which is generate a quite explosion).
But there must be a great error if I am mistaken!! (hot air - steam).

Alan

[boguslaw]

Hi all,

although there is a heated discussion about the character of wood I want to place another subject: The expanion of water.

Lloyds device based on the expansion of water when it gets hot = steam. But let me pose a question: What would happen it you compress air in a cylinder (like in your car)? The air becomes hot. An what would happen if you inject water? It would expand like in Lloyds device. Don't get me wrong: I don't want to say a combustion engine would run with water. I know that it is a difference between steam and gasoline which explode (which is generate a quite explosion).
But there must be a great error if I am mistaken!! (hot air - steam).

Alan

No,you are not mistaken. You are right I think. Meyer water injector seems to work on this principle just using high electrostatic field to convert water into cold vapour inside the cylinder.Just like water spark plug experiments but using pure voltage instead of current.

[boguslaw]

I'd like to touch two issues.

First : if wood is burned is there a CO2 or CO produced also ? That would be dangerous in small closed room when device is operating for a few hours or days. I hope not.

Second: I think that the carbon surface on wood which is created soon after device start has something to do with efficiency of it, and I guess that it may be electrical effect involved.After analysing related Frenette patent I scoped (hopefully) the missing link between patent device and not working prototypes.
It has something to do with friction. Some materials does not generate heat but rather electricity when rubbed.What if the oil could charge itself electrostatically in efficient manner and then rotation create electric current of high frequency and noticeable current, capable of producing eddy current inside metallic cylinder ?

[rileydad48]

Yes Co2 is created in Llyod's device, but in very small amounts. The friction chars the wood and the pressure and lack of O2 keep ignition from ever happening.. Llyod also has said that because of noise ( and probably a small amount of smoke- my own thinking) that he would keep the unit somewhere away from the interior of the house.. Say a garage or shed.