Friction Steam Boiler

[rileydad48]

Boguslaw..
Sorry, I should have introduce myself first. My name is Paul and I am a new member. I have enjoyed this whole conversation on Llyod Tanner's device. But I think we should remember that Mr. Tanner uses his invention to produce steam and only steam. He runs a steam engine and produces electricity. Any other use of this device is up to the individual. I must say though that the possiblities are almost fasinating. Garage heater,
hot water heater, and with some modification can be made safe to heat the whole house. Let your mind go..
Thanks Paul

[rickoff]

More about wood:

Because of previous posts, thought I should mention; When your buying wood, and you say "hard wood" or "softwood",these terms have NOTHING to do with the hardness of the wood;a hardwood comes from a tree with leaves, a softwood comes from a tree with needles. Balsa wood is classified as a hardwood, and you certainly wouldn't want to use that in Loyds device.
Jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your post concerning wood. It's nice to see people participating in this thread in ways that can be informative and helpful to all. You are quite right that merely using the terms "hardwood," or "softwood," when purchasing wood, does not actually guarantee the hardness or softness of the wood. The hardness factor is dependent upon the species of the wood. Douglas Fir, for example, although being classified as a softwood because it is a conifer (cone bearing) tree, is actually a harder wood than Chestnut, which is a hardwood variety. On the average, though, the hardwood varieties are actually harder than the softwoods, and this is why the lumbering industry chose the "hardwood" and "softwood" descriptors to differentiate between the two groups. There is an accepted method of determining the actual hardness rating of different woods, and this is called the Janka hardness test. This involves measuring the force required to press a 0.444 inch steel ball into the wood until an indentation of 100 square millimeters is achieved. The Janka hardness rating for Douglas Fir is 660 pounds, while Chestnut is rated at 540 pounds. Lloyd uses Oak wood, as was previously noted. Red Oak has a rating of 1290 lbs, while White Oak is rated at 1360 lbs. Unless one tests several different species with Lloyd's device, we can not say with any certainty what species will actually produce the best overall results. What we can determine, though, is that woods having greater hardness ratings will last longer, thus requiring less frequent reloading. One can learn more about Janka hardness, and determine the hardness of their locally available wood species by visiting the following website:
Janka hardness
The chart shown at this site lists species alphabetically, according to their common names, and lists the "side hardness" (force applied to the side of a wood plank, rather than to the end grain) of woods air dried to 12% moisture content. Since we will be using non-dried, or "green, unseasoned" wood with Lloyd's device, it might be interesting to folks to note that dried wood is harder than green wood. Temperate (non-tropical) softwoods, for example, are 43% harder when dry than when green, while temperate hardwoods are just 31% harder when dry. This means that green hardwood varieties retain their hardness 12% better than green softwoods. With that in mind, green Douglas Fir would have a Janka hardness of about 461, while green Chestnut would be 412. While the Janka hardness of Balsa wood is not indicated in the chart, it is about 100 lbs, and as Jim points out we certainly wouldn't want to use Balsa, even though it is classified as a hardwood. In post #154, when I stated that, "Any unseasoned hardwood will work fine," I really should have further qualified that statement so as to leave no chance of being misunderstood. Sorry if that confused anyone. I didn't think it needed further explanation, since Balsa wood grows in the tropical forests of South America, and wouldn't even be an available wood choice in climates where Lloyd's device would most likely be utilized. The main reason for using Lloyd's device is to produce heat, and that is something you wouldn't be needing in a tropical zone. Also, it is noted that Lloyd uses Oak wood with excellent results, so common sense dictates that we would probably want to select a species with a similar hardness as a starting point, and then perhaps experiment with harder woods. Some common North American hardwoods having a Janka hardness relatively near to, but above Oak, would be Sugar Maple (1450), and Sweet Birch (1470). The hardest of all wood species is Lignum Vitae, rated at 4500 lbs, and is also known as Ironwood. Ironwood is so dense that it will actually sink if placed in water. Glen (Fuzzy Tomcat) said that he is planning on trying out some Ironwood in his replication of Lloyd's Friction Heater, so it will be very interesting to see what his results are. If it works well, without causing rotor wear (this may be the case, since the wood contains natural lubricating oils that do not dry out), then it may be possible to run the Friction Heater 10 days or more between reloads. The only problem that I forsee with Ironwood is that of limited availability, since Lignum Vitae is listed as a potentially endangered species.

I hope this clears up any questions that anyone may have had relating to wood species or hardness as preferred for Lloyd's Friction Heater. Thanks, Jim, for bringing this to my attention. I try to keep explanations in simple terms so that they are easily understood, but sometimes I may either oversimplify things, or write in terms that, while seeming common sense to me, may not be that understandable to others. Any time that happens, I will be glad to elaborate further if anyone alerts me to the need, so please don't hesitate to ask for clarification if you do not understand something, or to point out the possibility that something may have been misunderstood by others.

Best wishes to all,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Paul (rileydad):

Boguslaw..
Sorry, I should have introduce myself first. My name is Paul and I am a new member. I have enjoyed this whole conversation on Llyod Tanner's device. I must say though that the possiblities are almost fasinating. Garage heater, hot water heater, and with some modification can be made safe to heat the whole house. Let your mind go..
Thanks Paul

Hi Paul, and welcome to our thread. Yes, there really are so many possibilities for utilizing Lloyd's device, whether it be single use or multi-use. The best possible (most efficient) utilization will of course be a multi-usage project, where the device is used to produce household heat, domestic hot water, and to generate electrical power. Many other adaptations can also be added to these processes, such as water distillation, for example. You could put out a large quantity of distilled water, and sell the excess that you don't use to markets in your area. That would negate the cost of the wood that you are using. As you say, "Let your mind go.."

Best regards,

Rick

[theremart]

Question...

How many psi of steam does Lloyd's device make?

[jibbguy]

Long-aged wood is even harder

One thing that is escaping me here after re-reading the thread and the links, is why unseasoned wood is desirable. Because, from "hard" experience dulling saw blades and bending hundreds of nails working on old structures (and spewing thousands of swear words ); i know that wood that has aged for 40 or so years in a dry place without insect infestation can be at least twice as hard as originally.

So unless there is a specific need for unseasoned wood (possibly because of the moisture content?), "super-seasoned" might work best. This can be gotten from tore-down structures like barns, old houses being renovated, rail-road ties and power poles, and perhaps the bottom of old lumber wood piles. I guess the down-side danger would be related to it being drier and more prone to possibly flash-igniting... Can the same or similar effect be seen with the friction cylinder and timber baulk being immersed in water as in open air?

[boguslaw]

You missed my point.I mentioned Frenette device because I believe it has something to do with Lloyd using "green, unseasoned" wood with a resin inside. Remember that amber is also petrified resin. It has peculiar electric features.

[rickoff]

Reply to Mart:

How many psi of steam does Lloyd's device make?

Hi Mart,

Lloyd has said that he tested his device at prolonged steam temperature of 560 Farenheit degrees (293.33 Centigrade). This would equal out to about 12 bar (12 times normal atmospheric pressure of 14 psi), or about 168 pounds per square inch (psi). This is considerably more than needed to operate a steam engine of 10 horsepower or less.

Here's a diagram showing the steam temperature/steam pressure relationship, which is also known as the Steam Saturation Curve.


This should help you to determine steam temperature and pressure needs based upon the specifications of an engine you are considering for use.

Hope this helps, and best wishes to you Mart,

Rick

[rickoff]

One thing that is escaping me here after re-reading the thread and the links, is why unseasoned wood is desirable. I guess the down-side danger [of seasoned wood] would be related to it being drier and more prone to possibly flash-igniting...

Yes, jibbguy, that is exactly right. The friction will create a large amount of heat, and we don't want the wood to combust.

Can the same or similar effect be seen with the friction cylinder and timber baulk being immersed in water as in open air?

I believe that would be conterproductive because of the fact that the water would be cooling the friction cylinder, while our aim is to heat it.

Thanks for your inquiry, and best wishes to you,

Rick

[Vortex]

Hi Rick and everyone,

Hi Mart,

Lloyd has said that he tested his devivc at prolonged steam temperature of 560 Farenheit degrees (299.33 Centgrade). This would equal out to about 12 bar (12 times normal atmospheric pressure of 14 psi), or about 168 pounds per square inch (psi). This is considerably more than needed to operate a steam engine of 10 horsepower or less.

Here's a diagram showing the steam temperature/steam pressure relationship, which is also known as the Steam Saturation Curve.


This should help you to determine steam temperature and pressure needs based upon the specifications of an engine you are considering for use.

To make clear to those that might not realize,
PSI and temperature are joined at the hip as charts will show you. Water/steam at X temperature is Y PSI and Water/steam at Y PSI is X temperature, the boiling point of water changes with pressure.

The idea, as I understand it, the friction steam creation isn't going to
have hot water waiting to become steam as in a normal boiler.
I don't understand how it is going to be known if extra standing water exists or does not exist during steam creation...
unless there is a window for watching water turn to steam .. that's got
to be better than watching water boil
The less extra water there is the safer it would be.

I'm curious about the volume of steam created over time.
What was the time duration of Lloyd's prolonged test?
Did Lloyd feed in water during this prolonged test or was standing water used?
How much water was turned into steam during the test?
Does Lloyd have a water feed of some kind yet?
Did Lloyd just leave the steam valve open during this prolonged test?

In the Steam Pressure Table water at 12 bar boils at 376.88 degree Fahrenheit.

I'm not understanding something about these tables and maybe some one
can explain it to me. I look at SATURATED STEAM TABLE and it tells
me 545 F / 285 C steam is 1000 PSI. I've seen other tables like this one
and they do not match the graph Rich has show us, Why? Can they both be
correct, what am I not understanding? I thought these tables were
correct but now I don't know what to think.


Some maybe useful Ref Links: Steam Flow Through Orifices Discharging To Atmosphere

Steam Pressure Table This gives the Boiling point of water under pressure.

I'm still looking into transforming the steam into kinetic energy in water.
Knowing the volume of steam created would help reduce or widen
my selection of methods to test out.

Keep on
Randy

[Vortex]

To make clear to those that might not realize,
PSI and temperature are joined at the hip as charts will show you. Water/steam at X temperature is Y PSI and Water/steam at Y PSI is X temperature, the boiling point of water changes with pressure.

The above statement is generally correct, except for superheating can raise temperature without a raise in pressure. I don't understand it yet myself.
Ref Link: PROPERTIES OF STEAM AND WATER

still
Randy

[billb0169]

Wouldn't using a copper disk/wheel instead of steel be more effective in generating steam due to coppers superior thermal conduction properties? I remember reading that copper can conduct heat 9 to 10 times better than steel. The only metal that is a better thermal conducter than copper is silver but not by much. I'm not sure though if copper would wear down a lot faster and it would be more expensive obviously.

[Vortex]

Wouldn't using a copper disk/wheel instead of steel be more effective in generating steam due to coppers superior thermal conduction properties? I remember reading that copper can conduct heat 9 to 10 times better than steel. The only metal that is a better thermal conducter than copper is silver but not by much. I'm not sure though if copper would wear down a lot faster and it would be more expensive obviously.

You are correct.
The heat created has to move from the disk/wheel, as you put it, area to the
bottom plate of the steam creation chamber/vessel which needs to absorb that heat and then release that heat into the water.
This bottom plate would be more effective, at moving the heat, if it where made out of a more thermally conductive material as you have stated.

This is very important if you are trying to make steam really quick as with
the Water Pulsejet which does not use a boiler per say and only basically has a "hot area" to flash steam in a hurry.

The steam being created with the materials currently used might already be more than can be used.
If the above statement proves to be correct then the use of copper would allow for a wider range of motor selection, be it lower hp, rpm or off/on running???

See Link Thermal Conductivity of some common Materials

Randy

[Alana]

Where is Rick

Hi everybody,

thanks so much for your postings, especially Randy who posed some very interesting questions. I don't know any answer. So I miss Rick. Where are you? We need your advise!
We need your advise even though we have no question over the condition of wood .

Best wishes to all out there!
Alana

[rickoff]

More about steam:

Hi Rick and everyone,
I'm curious about the volume of steam created over time.
What was the time duration of Lloyd's prolonged test?
Did Lloyd feed in water during this prolonged test or was standing water used?
How much water was turned into steam during the test?
Does Lloyd have a water feed of some kind yet?
Did Lloyd just leave the steam valve open during this prolonged test?

In the Steam Pressure Table water at 12 bar boils at 376.88 degree Fahrenheit.

I'm not understanding something about these tables and maybe some one
can explain it to me. I look at SATURATED STEAM TABLE and it tells
me 545 F / 285 C steam is 1000 PSI. I've seen other tables like this one
and they do not match the graph Rich has show us, Why? Can they both be correct, what am I not understanding? I thought these tables were
correct but now I don't know what to think.

Keep on
Randy

Hi Randy,

The answer to your last question is that both the tables that you refer to, and the graph that I supplied, are correct. The tables are assuming that you are using a boiler, and that water will always be present in the boiler unless you reach the so called "critical point," which is the temperature where liquid water can not exist. The critical point is reached at 374.15C (or 705.47F) degrees, and a pressure of 221.2 bar (3097 psi). Beyond the critical point, you can only have "superheated" steam. In the superheated region, steam pressure falls off sharply, while steam volume can increase without limit. In the graph that I posted, any point above the upward sloping line represents superheated steam, and the difference vertically between that point and the line equals the degree of superheating. The line itself represents the saturation point. Now let's take your example of 285C (545F) degree steam at 1000 psi pressure. In that example, there is no superheated steam. If the pressure remains at 1,000 psi and you raise the temperature to 285.827C (546.489F) degrees, you will have 1/1000C degree of superheated steam. That's because the saturation point at 1,000 psi equals 285.826C. In the example that I gave, of 560F degree (incidentally, that's 293.33C, not 299.33C as I previously stated) steam at 168 psi pressure, you would have 103.131C degrees of superheating. So you see, both situations are possible. The major difference is in the degrees of superheated steam. You can plug in varying values to calculate multiple steam properties at the following website:
Superheated Steam Region - Steam Table : International site for Spirax Sarco

I think you will agree that Lloyd's device is designed to produce superheated steam if operated properly. Lloyd preheats the vessel box to a desired temperature (let's assume 560F degrees, for example) before the water drip system is turned on. Ideally, you want each water droplet to explode into superheated steam so that no amount of water accumulates at the base plate of the vessel box, and of course that situation will be dependent upon maintaining a relatively slow regulated water drip. With each exploding water droplet expanding as steam to occupy about 1600 times its former volume (and perhaps much more, depending on the amount of superheating), a large volume of steam can be produced. One drop of distilled water is equal to about .025ml volume. Exploded to steam, at a factor of 1600 to 1, that drop has a volume of 40ml. Thus, it would require 25 exploded drops to equal roughly 1 liter of volume. To determine how many liters per minute of steam you would require to operate a steam engine at a specific rpm, you would multiply the rpm times the engine's displacement per revolution. Displacement would equal cylinder cross sectional area times cylinder stroke times number of cylinders. For example, let's consider the 10 horsepower Green Steam Engine. It has two cylinders, each with a 3.125 inch bore and a 1.125 inch stroke. The displacement of each cylinder is equal to Pi times 2.4414 (the cylinder radius squared) times 1.125, or 8.632ci (cubic inches). Thus the total displacement per revolution is 2 times 8.632, or 16.724ci. Converted to liters, that would equal 0.27 liter per revolution. Robert Green tells me that 3500 rpm would be typical for running this engine at 100 psi while driving a 5kw electric generator. To do that, you would require 945 liters per minute, which equates to 23,625 exploded water droplets per minute, or roughly 394 droplets per second. I can see where this would be very possible with Lloyd's horizontal roller design and feeding multiple wood pieces, but with the 5 inch rotor as used in Lloyd's original design it may not be possible to operate a 10 hp engine to 3500 rpm. The engine might well be powerful enough to drive the electric generator using a 1:2 or 1:3 step-up gear ratio, of course, which would only require 1/2 to 1/3 the steam volume as figured. Or you could build a 3 hp steam engine, capable of driving a 1.5 kw generator while using a far lesser volume of steam.

I agree that it would be useful to have more facts at hand regarding the actual volume of steam per minute that Lloyd is able to produce. I did ask about that during one of my phone conversations with Lloyd, but he didn't have any specifics available at that time. I know that his device has been evaluated by the engineering department at a nearby college, and that they agreed that it would be capable of running a steam engine of sufficient size to create useful electric power. Lloyd has demonstrated his device to several interested groups, and perhaps some volume tests may have been performed by now. I notice that the recent photos appear to show that both a temperature gauge and psi gauge are installed on the steam vessel box, but it would be difficult to determine steam production volume unless a flow metering device of some sort is used. I will pass your questions on to Lloyd, and we'll see what he has been able to determine.

I hope this has been helpful to everyone.

Best wishes to all,

Rick

[Vortex]

more about steam

Hi Rick and all,

The answer to your last question is that both the tables that you refer to, and the graph that I supplied, are correct. The tables are assuming that you are using a boiler, and that water will always be present in the boiler unless you reach the so called "critical point," which is the temperature where liquid water can not exist. The critical point is reached at 374.15C (or 705.47F) degrees, and a pressure of 221.2 bar (3097 psi). Beyond the critical point, you can only have "superheated" steam. In the superheated region, steam pressure falls off sharply, while steam volume can increase without limit. ...

I still don't have my head wrapped around this superheated thing yet and had ignored it because I thought I'd never have to deal with it. It seems I have to do some researching to understand it.
Steam is an extremely large subject and knowing what is important or relative is hard to determine.

Thank you for supplying the "numbers" about the "Green Machine" steam engine and those steam requirements for others to view. As you normally do, you covered subject well. It saved me time and effort of posting what I had done.

I had already crunched those numbers myself, awhile back, to have some idea of the volume of steam required for using the Green Machine.

I will pass your questions on to Lloyd, and we'll see what he has been able to determine.

Yes, please do, thank you.

Still
Randy