Friction Steam Boiler

[Vortex]

Steam Requirements - use 75% less steam

A steam engine can extract 3 times more work if
the steam supply is cut off at 25% of the normal usage.

In layman terms it uses the "Expansion of Steam" and a rough idea of how it works
goes like this: take 45 psi steam, turn off the steam at 1/4 stroke of the piston.
The steam expands in the cylinder pushing the piston.
The mean/average steam psi ends up to be say 21 psi during the entire stroke of the piston.

This is forgotten knowledge discovered by James Watt, 250 years ago, patented and never used by him.
Cornishman Richard Trevithick (1771-1833) in the Cornish engine used the knowledge, but only partially.
The engine was only twice as efficient as other engines at the time.

Brute force is the norm in a steam engine. It supplies steam during the
entire stroke of the piston, filling the entire volume of the steam engine cylinder,
from top of stroke to bottom of stroke, moving the piston by compression
force. This is wasting energy.

I've seen it shown somewhere, but can not find it now, if you fiddle around
with the numbers, it is possible to obtain up to 4 or more times the work with
different ratios of pressure/heat/strokes. These equations are beyond my use..
this is an example of my PERSONAL forgotten knowledge.

Disinformation is out there that say use of "Expansion of Steam" is not worth
the effort... Where have we heard that before?

Someone that can use the equations, does so here:
THE POLYTROPIC COMPEX CYCLE MACHINE
Speaks directly about the Expansion of Steam.

References: search these links below for the phase "Expansion of Steam".
THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE MODERN STEAM-ENGINE. JAMES WATT AND HIS CONTEMPORARIES.
Oliver Evans (1755–1819)
Is a text file, which is incorrectly displayed
STEAM ENGINE
Mentions saving in fuel by expansion


General Steam Reference: Survival & Self Reliance Studies Institute

So, a TWEAKING of a steam engine can greatly lower the steam
volume requirements to perform a target work load and that's worth thinking about.

Maybe Peter Lindemann can eye-ball some of this and give us an idea
of how easy this path of "Expansion of Steam" is to follow.

Still
Randy

[nonubbins]

Rick
Thanks for all the legwork on this idea! I have a fuel oil boiler with hot water baseboard heat and an expected tab of $2000+ this winter so am hoping this pans out with hot water only(see below). A couple of thoughts/concerns.....

1. As Vortex pointed out, we need the volume output to give it a BTU rating. Then we can see if it is efficient or "pie in the sky". Saying it can run a 3 HP engine without a rating is misleading and probably flat wrong. I have a small air compressor that can hit 120 psi but at less than 1 gpm it won't be running an impact wrench!

2. The heat transfer to the steam vessel seems to be a ? for a lot of people. Keep in mind that in boiler/extreme heat situations that involve temperature differences, the amount of energy transfer that happens in the form of radiant heat becomes substantial.

3. I've played a bit with a 2.25in pipe in a wood lathe that turns at 3600 rpm
(424 ips) with a feed trough in back and one in the front that feed 1x2.75in blocks. I used kiln dried oak and green oak from a fresh stump and the green oak was much hotter.

4. All my searching the web shows that you need at least 35 lbs/hr for 1 HP. At 1100 btu/lb then 3 HP=115000 btu boiler and 10 HP=385000 btu boiler!!!!! These numbers would all be at the low end of realistic! Most experts would say you need up to 47 lbs/hr! If someone can prove to me that the original can do 115000 btu, then I'm building one tomorrow!

5. All that said, I see more opportunity here for just a hot water boiler(not steam). Do the math and you'll see what I mean......

Raising the temp of water 1 deg=1 btu/lb
Converting 212F water to 212F steam=970 btu/lb( latent heat of evaporation or phase change and phase change is energy intense)
So in a hot water system......
1 lb of return water=140F?
raise to 180F=40 btu and send it back to radiators

In a 168psi steam system.....
1 lb of condensate=180F? (unless you also heat with it?)
raise to 376F water=196 btu
convert to 376F steam=970 btu
superheating?= 1 btu/lb/deg.
Total= at least 1166 btu

The steam example is for a mechanical system only. Yes, I know I'm comparing a heat system to a mechanical system. My point is that winter is here and a lot of people could use a cheap source of heat now. And I am in doubt that we can make that much steam anyway.(can someone please prove me wrong. please!) I have a design in mind but would like some more info before spending $$$ and time. Jetis, how is your experiment coming?

P.S.
Rick, the formula for volume of a cylinder is P*r2*h. That will change your numbers in post 164

[nonubbins]

To clarify my idea above.....
33,000 btu boiler(1 HP) would heat 100 gal storage tank from 140F to 180F every hour. The house thermostats would cycle, but the boiler is controlled by an aquastat and keeps the tank hot. This would heat the average size house and provide domestic water on warmer days. If we could do this with a 2 HP motor costing $75 or so a month we would have a winner! The regular heat system could provide backup for really cold days and vacations. If in floor radiant heat was used then we could use water down to 105F or so and free up more btus. Plus, if it was a mobile unit on wheels outside, you could hook it up to a pool/spa and extend the season. $75........If only.........hmmm...........

Not trying to "stick a fork in it" or anything. Not trying to blow up people's ideas or anything. I've seen many forums/threads that start out with solid ideas and human nature tries to turn a sure double into the homerun that its not. There have been a lot of good ideas here and lets keep that rolling. Again, Rick, thanks!!!

[rickoff]

All my searching the web shows that you need at least 35 lbs/hr for 1 HP. At 1100 btu/lb then 3 HP=115000 btu boiler and 10 HP=385000 btu boiler!!!!! These numbers would all be at the low end of realistic! Most experts would say you need up to 47 lbs/hr! If someone can prove to me that the original can do 115000 btu, then I'm building one tomorrow!
P.S.
Rick, the formula for volume of a cylinder is P*r2*h. That will change your numbers in post 164

Hi nonubbins,

Thanks for pointing out the error in cylinder volume calculation. It's a formula that I use quite often, so I should have realized the error before posting. I normally proofread what I have written before posting it, but sometimes I feel like it is more important that I get some sleep, and this was one of those times. I have recomputed the numbers for the 10 hp Green Steam Engine example in post 164. The reason why I used the 10hp Green Steam Engine for the example is because I knew all the factors regarding both the measurements and the expected output. I never expected that Lloyd's device (the original design) would be capable of running a 10 hp steam engine, and that is way more power than would be required for a simple yet useful steam application. If we are mainly interested in producing household heat, then any amount of electric cogeneration would be like icing on the cake. I'm sure you would agree with that. Also keep in mind that in my Green Steam Engine example, the steam volume production requirement is figured with the exhaust steam wasted to the atmosphere. We can greatly increase efficiency by recirculating the exhaust heat back to the water hopper and reservoir tank.

Again, I have never recommended that anyone use a 10 hp, or even a 3 hp steam engine with Lloyd's original device, and have never meant to imply that either would actually be realistically viable. Examples of 10 hp or 3 hp engines were only cited for the purpose of discussing steam engine designs and capacities so that people would have a better idea of what size engine would be required to perform a certain level of work. Early in this thread, I stated (in post 37) that, "if you decide to implement a steam engine, start with a simple hobby type engine such as can readily be found on Ebay." I have repeatedly stated the idea of starting with a small scale replication as being the best way to go. And in post 66 I stated, "I would suggest building the friction boiler and steam apparatus first, so that you can test the volume of steam production. Then you will have a good idea of the hp rating that can best be utilized to match the friction boiler's output when operating at a reasonable steam temperature and pressure." Thus, I would tend to believe that any reasonable thinking person would not surmise that anything misleading has been stated here regarding the use or size of steam engines in relation to either of Lloyd's designs.

Yes, a 3 hp steam engine would exhaust more than 100,000 BTU, and that would be comparable to an oil burner boiler capacity as used in an average size home heating system. Most boilers wouldn't be running constantly, so the BTU actually required for heating would be considerably less than 100,000. A 1 hp steam engine would probably suffice to heat an average home if running almost constantly, and I do think this would be a realistic steam application for Lloyd's original device. Your intended application of Lloyd's device to simply generate and circulate hot water (or hot air, for that matter) for home heating is a perfectly acceptable variation, as I have pointed out many times in previous posts. There is no need to create steam unless one has a use for it and wants to maximize the potential of Lloyd's device. If you do give some consideration to building a Green Steam Engine, remember that it does not need to operate at a maximum rpm output, or even a median output, to create useful power. The 10 hp example cited an engine running at 3500 rpm and 100 psi steam pressure while driving a 5kw electric generator, but the same engine is capable of running at just 20 psi and much lower rpm while performing useful work. Engine choice depends upon what you want to accomplish, and also depends upon the size and design of your replication.

One final note about steam - practically all formulas that you will find on the Internet or in books are related to conventional methods of steam creation within a boiler with standing water. When considering Lloyd's device for steam generation, conventional terms really aren't that useful. It will be helpful if Lloyd can tell us more about sustained steam production volume. What we already know, though, is that his device makes far better use of wood to produce usable heat than any past or current method of burning wood. This fact alone certainly makes any replication project a worthwhile endeavor.

Best regards to all,

Rick

[nonubbins]

Rick
Thanks for pointing out some things. I understand. I always knew we were talking about a larger boiler for the 10 horse. My question is, can it really be a self-runner at any size? I will be thrilled if it proves out to be one. This is a really solid idea and having options when deciding what fuel to "burn" always brings prices down for those fuels. As for the drip method being unconventional, yes, but heat is heat. That drop of water still has to be brought up to temp and then flashed to steam. Its just done in a fraction of a second. But it still removes heat from the exchanger. Will it prove to be more efficient? No doubt it has a faster start up time.

If you hear from Lloyd about steam production, we're all ears. I don't want to see this thing die until its proven or not.

Thank you Rick!!!

[Vortex]

how to determine heat created?

An idea of how to determine how much heat is being created.
Take a pot and rotate the wood against the bottom of the pot.
Weight the pot down as required to be close to the 10 lbs.
Use 2 pieces of 4"x4" or 4 pieces would be easier to work with?

Measurements:
Quantity of water used
Start temperature, time.
temperatures at 1 or 5 mins time frames.
End time when water starts to boil.

The above configuration would allow for many what ifs to be tested as well.
RPM, force/weight, HP

Would not this be the information we are lacking?
Done deal and end of story?

Advantages of Vertical Rotation:
Allows for direct contact with the steam creation chamber for heating.
A Square, Round, Triangle, etc. shape steam chamber could be used, it wouldn't matter much.
Modular design of steam chamber and Rotor/wood assembly independently ?
Any shape, depending on rotor/clamps, round, square, etc. wood could be used including logs?
Any widths of wood less than the bottom of the steam chamber could be used.
More heat, use a bigger piece of wood?
Removes most of the heat transfer issues in the rotor, shaft and bearings.
Allows for a fire/flame to be used as a means of startup/warm up. (in steam creation)
Only requires one piece of wood or multiple pieces
could be used at the same time, if they were squared off or something.
Is a smaller overall size device?

Design issue to resolve:
How to apply force for friction between the rotating wood and the bottom
of the steam chamber.
Depending on how this is done, it could allow for varying size lengths of wood
to be used as well as widths.

Now, who has a pot, motor and able to create a rotor/wood holder for the
testing?
I don't even have a pot to piss in??!

Still
Randy

[nonubbins]

An idea of how to determine how much heat is being created.
Take a pot and rotate the wood against the bottom of the pot.
Weight the pot down as required to be close to the 10 lbs.
Use 2 pieces of 4"x4" or 4 pieces would be easier to work with?

Measurements:
Quantity of water used
Start temperature, time.
temperatures at 1 or 5 mins time frames.
End time when water starts to boil.

The above configuration would allow for many what ifs to be tested as well.
RPM, force/weight, HP

Would not this be the information we are lacking?
Done deal and end of story?

That could work for a cheap testing setup. My wife would not be happy about donating a good pot so will have to buy one. I'll sleep on the rest of it.

Dan

[Alana]

@ Rick
I take a further look at the photos Lloyd sent to you. I always thought that the steam vessel is a very large apparatus. The photos show a very small steam vessel. Is this the real steam vessel?

@ all

The last postings made it clear: It is necesarry to know how much heat or steam Lloyds device could deliver. Without this me measurements we could not calculate (input/output).

@ nonubbins
It seems that you have not recognised that Lloyds goal it not to boild water in a large vessel. His goal is get water drops to expload into steam.

[rickoff]

@ Rick
I take a further look at the photos Lloyd sent to you. I always thought that the steam vessel is a very large apparatus. The photos show a very small steam vessel. Is this the real steam vessel?

Yes, Alana, this is the steam vessel that Lloyd uses. Since it is relatively small, it doesn't take much time to heat it to the desired temperature, and the working pressure also builds up rapidly. The small size is very advantageous for an "on-demand" steam supply system.

I sent a request to Lloyd asking for any data that he can supply to us regarding actual steam production volume, and am awaiting a response. I will post that response as soon as it becomes available.

Best wishes,

Rick

[nonubbins]

@ nonubbins
It seems that you have not recognised that Lloyds goal it not to boild water in a large vessel. His goal is get water drops to explode into steam.

I have understood from Rick's post #8 and his excellent drawings onward about the drip method! Its a novel idea and adds safety to the steam generation process. If my using the term "boiler" confused you, then sorry about that. In that industry, anything that produces hot water/steam is going to be called a "boiler".

Dan

[rickoff]

Reply to Dan (nonubbins):

Rick
Thanks for pointing out some things. I understand. I always knew we were talking about a larger boiler for the 10 horse. My question is, can it really be a self-runner at any size?

Hi Dan,

To answer your question - yes, I really think it is possible. While it is highly improbable that you could ever achieve a self-runner using conventional methods, Lloyd's device should not be underestimated. Here are some things to think about:
1. No one has ever devised a method for burning wood whereby all of the produced heat energy is captured and usable in producing steam. A large percentage of the heat is wasted through a chimney to the atmosphere. If you attempt to cap off the chimney, the wood stops burning. With Lloyd's friction method, however, practically all of the generated heat goes into producing steam.
2. Since Lloyd's water drip system is not activated until the vessel box temperature is high enough to explode water droplets directly and fully into steam, you are starting with "dry" saturated steam which has a far higher expansive force than wet steam, and any continued heating produces superheated steam. As long as the temperature of the vessel box is maintained high enough, the production of superheated steam will continue.
3. Lloyd used a 1 hp electric motor to drive his friction steamer with a rotor speed of 1800 rpm. A 1 hp Green Steam Engine (just for example) can produce 1800 rpm with 50 psi of partially saturated wet steam, and should perform just as well with superheated steam at an even lower pressure. That's because with superheated steam, all of the steam is likely to pass through the engine's cylinders and out the exhaust without condensing. Keep in mind that with superheated steam at 560F degrees and 50 psi pressure, the steam is heated to 262F degrees above the temperature of even "dry" saturated steam. Therefore, you derive full benefit from the steam's expansive force.
4. With the superheated engine exhaust channeled back to preheat water before it enters the drip system of the vessel box, the efficiency should rise quickly as the water temperature rises. When you reach a point where dripping water is already somewhere close to the saturation temperature of 298F degrees, you can see that it will take very little added frictional heat to produce superheated steam in abundance. As a matter of fact, you wouldn't want to raise the incoming water to such a high temperature, because that would lead to a dangerous runaway situation. Therefore you would maintain the water reservoir temperature somewhat below the 298F saturation temperature by halting rotation of the friction rotor.

With all these factors working together, I don't think you can rule out the possibility of a self-runner. Of course a self-runner, although quite an achievement in itself, would be more or less pointless if it did not also provide the possibility for utilizing at least a partial amount of the heat energy to produce useful work - such as heating a home, driving a generator, or distilling water. It does seem that a certain amount of heat would be radiated to the atmosphere of the area where the friction device is installed, so that alone would elevate the self-runner to "useful" status during times when heat is desired. Distillation of water is also a likely possibility with a self-runner, but driving a generator would require a steam engine with additional horsepower. While that may be improbable with a self-runner, there is little doubt that Lloyd's device can be used to produce useful work simultaneously in multiple applications using very little external power input.

Does that pique your interest? I hope so!


Best regards,

Rick

[nonubbins]

Does that pique your interest? I hope so!

I've been piqued from post #1

1. With return water at 298F, we are talking about a closed system that on the exhaust side maintains pressure at >65 psi. Now we need to increase the input psi(more heat). How does this affect engine efficiency? Is it worth the hassle and complexity to save some energy by lowering the btu requirement for converting water back to steam(latent heat) at elevated temp and pressure.

EDIT: Rick, are you saying that we are capturing the exhaust to reuse ie a closed system or simply running the steam through a heat exchanger and vented to atmoshere. If the latter, then disregard the above!

2. With feed water at 298F/65 psi, the risk of a leak that leads to a flash explosion goes up dramatically. This design would offset the safety of Lloyd's drip method!

Thanks
Dan

[theremart]

Ok..

Where could one get the metal for the steam generation.... I was thinking farm implement or junk yard what type of metal was he using?

[nonubbins]

Where could one get the metal for the steam generation.... I was thinking farm implement or junk yard what type of metal was he using?

Junkyards would be good maybe. I've got a farm/equipment auction yard near me that I'll visit in a couple weeks. I'm setting up a variation of Randy's idea and hope to do some testing in the next few days.

Dan

[theremart]

ideas I had..

Junkyards would be good maybe. I've got a farm/equipment auction yard near me that I'll visit in a couple weeks. I'm setting up a variation of Randy's idea and hope to do some testing in the next few days.

Dan

I was thinking about an I - beam as the trough for the wood seems that it might be a good base for the wood to slide on toward the wheel... cut a hole in the middle of one and you would have most of the base made.

Please keep us posted on your progress...

Thanks