Friction Steam Boiler

[gene gene]

Hi Rick,
Thanks again, and a big thanks to Paul for turning me on to MS paint. I thought it was just something the kids (11&7) could play with, but they have helped me learn to use it some. Here is my vortex Tesla turbine gen set idea. I am a bit of a vortex nut. I think I may be genetically linked to Victor Schauberger. LOL


Think centripetal: (proceeding in a direction toward a center or axis) or vortex motion results in a violation of the second law of thermodynamics. It has an ordering, a concentrating, a cooling effect. While centrifugal or radiative motion has an entropic, dispersing, heating effect.

Gene

[rickoff]

Reply to Skyavy

super charger

A different idea connected to the idea of a screw compressor, I was thinking is, what if in Tesla's turbine the spacers( discs about half the size of the bigger disks) had holes that matched the holes of the bigger disks. One would have three "pipes"( made by pressing all the disks tightly together) Now twist the "pipes" ( the holes in the disks--- ala Schauberger) One would have a screw compressor (supercharger) similar to the above screw compressor only in reverse, if the holes gradually got smaller. So instead of putting the pressure on the outside walls( as in above pattent) it would be putting pressure into the center of the swirling air-- like little "tornadoes." Does that make sense?

Hi Skyavy, and thanks for your suggestion.

Unfortunately, I see two problems in the idea:

1. If the spacers are machined solid, other than the holes at the centers matching the holes in the discs, then the inflowing drive fluid can not pass from between the discs to the outflow area at the center axis.
2. In a Tesla turbine, low pressure is desired at the outflow. You may remember that the 200 hp Tesla turbine's inflow was at 125 psi, while the outflow was reduced to 2 or 3 psi. This is desirable because it allows the inwardly spiraling drive fluid to take the longest path possible, and to thus derive the greatest possible amount of output power and torque. Turbo boosting the pressure of the outflow would reduce the efficiency of the turbine by decreasing the number of spiral turns that the drive fluid makes before being exhausted. A turbo boost, or a sufficient vacuum applied at the exhaust (or at the intake of an exhaust connected device), could speed the rpm output of the turbine, but at the sacrifice of torque and horsepower.

The Tesla tubine is already an extremely efficient design if built properly, and as far as I know, no attempts at improving the design in the 1922 British patent (see post #282), through alterations, have produced positive results.

Best regards,

Rick

[rickoff]

Hi Rick,
Thanks again, and a big thanks to Paul for turning me on to MS paint. I thought it was just something the kids (11&7) could play with, but they have helped me learn to use it some. Here is my vortex Tesla turbine gen set idea. I am a bit of a vortex nut. I think I may be genetically linked to Victor Schauberger. LOL


Think centripetal: (proceeding in a direction toward a center or axis) or vortex motion results in a violation of the second law of thermodynamics. It has an ordering, a concentrating, a cooling effect. While centrifugal or radiative motion has an entropic, dispersing, heating effect.

Gene

Hi Gene, and thanks for sharing your ideas and illustrations. Actually, though, there really cannot be any such thing as a Tesla vortex turbine. Here's why:

In a true vortex, the speed of rotation of the fluid is greatest near the center, and gradually diminishes towards the outer portions of the spiral path. In the Tesla turbine, it is just the opposite. So if you could successfully create a vortex at the center of the turbine, it would upset the intended design flow and the turbine would not operate properly.

The spiral of a vortex, and the spiral inflow path of fluid in a Tesla turbine do share similarities, however. Both are logarithmic spirals, and so have adjacent spirals that become more closely spaced towards the center. Here's a diagram that illustrates the spiral inflow path that the fluid takes on each disc facing of the Tesla turbine.


This is a crude drawing, but it shows the basic principle. The actual path depends upon several factors. A larger disc allows a longer path, for example, as does a higher speed of rotation. To better understand the desired operational characteristics, I offer this quote in Tesla's own words:

In order to bring out a distinctive feature, assume, in the first place, that the motive medium is admitted to the disk chamber through a port, that is a channel which it traverses with nearly uniform velocity. In this case, the machine will operate as a rotary engine, the fluid continuously expanding on its tortuous path to the central outlet. The expansion takes place chiefly along the spiral path, for the spread inward is opposed by the centrifugal force due to the velocity of the whirl and by the great resistance to radial exhaust. It is to be observed that the resistance to the passage of the fluid between the plates is, approximately, proportionate to the square of the relative speed, which is maximum in the direction toward the center and equal to the full tangential velocity of the fluid. The path of least resistance, necessarily taken in obedience to a universal law of motion is, virtually, also that of least relative velocity. Next, assume that the fluid is admitted to the disk chamber not through a port, but a diverging nozzle, a device converting wholly or in part, the expansive into velocity-energy. The machine will then work rather like a turbine, absorbing the energy of kinetic momentum of the particles as they whirl, with continuously decreasing speed, to the exhaust.
- Nikola Tesla

Regarding the difference between the Tesla pump and the Tesla turbine operating principles, Tesla stated,

In the pump, the radial or static pressure, due to centrifugal force, is added to the tangential or dynamic, thus increasing the effective head and assisting in the expulsion of the fluid. In the motor, on the contrary, the first named pressure, being opposed to that of supply, reduces the effective head and the velocity of radial flow toward the center. Again, in the propelled machine a great torque is always desirable, this calling for an increased number of disks and smaller distance of separation, while in the propelling machine, for numerous economic reasons, the rotary effort should be the smallest and the speed the greatest practicable. Many other considerations, which will naturally suggest themselves, may affect the design and construction, but the preceding is thought to contain all necessary information in this regard.
- Nikola Tesla

You had asked if a Tesla turbine could be effectively operated at relatively low speeds, and Tesla also had an answer for that, saying,

It is evident that when transmitting power from one shaft to another by such machines, any desired ratio between the speeds of rotation may be obtained by a proper selection of the diameters of the disks, or by suitably staging the transmitter, the receiver, or both.
- Nikola Tesla

Regarding best efficiencies of operation, Tesla said,

The machine will, generally, perform its maximum work when the effective speed of the runner is one-half that of the fluid; but to attain the highest economy, the relative speed or slip, for any given performance, should be as small as possible. This condition may be to any desired degree approximated by increasing the active area of and reducing the space between the disks.
- Nikola Tesla

Tesla worked a great many years at perfecting his turbine design. I really believe that, other than utilizing space age materials for a build, and building the turbine to the British patent specifications, alterations in design will not prove advantageous, and are most likely to decrease performance. I may be wrong, of course, and don't claim to be infallible in my thought processes. Whatever plan and course of action one chooses to pursue is fine with me, and I don't want to discourage brainstorming and experimentation. The only useless idea is one that is not explored, shared, or acted upon.

Best wishes to you,

Rick

[sykavy]

Hi Skyavy, and thanks for your suggestion.

Unfortunately, I see two problems in the idea:

1. If the spacers are machined solid, other than the holes at the centers matching the holes in the discs, then the inflowing drive fluid can not pass from between the discs to the outflow area at the centrer axis.
2. In a Tesla turbine, low pressure is desired at the outflow. You may remember that the 200 hp Tesla turbine's inflow was at 125 psi, while the outflow was reduced to 2 or 3 psi. This is desirable because it allows the inwardly spiraling drive fluid to take the longest path possible, and to thus derive the greatest possible amount of output power and torque. Turbo boosting the pressure of the outflow would reduce the efficiency of the turbine by decreasing the number of spiral turns that the drive fluid makes before being exhausted. A turbo boost, or a sufficient vacuum applied at the exhaust (or at the intake of an exhaust connected device), could speed the rpm output of the turbine, but at the sacrifice of torque and horsepower.

The Tesla tubine is already an extremely efficient design if built properly, and as far as I know, no attempts at improving the design in the 1923 British patent, through alterations, have produced positive results.

Best regards,

Rick

Thanks Rick I'll have to try and make one some time see wahat happens

[Jetijs]

Rick,
I need your advice for Tesla turbines for personal watercraft. So far I have thought about two possible solutions:



The first one is somewhat similar than that I posted earlier, but without the bent blades. The water flows from the bottom side into the holes in the blades and is then propelled to the sides where the casing wall is bent so that water is forced to go upwards. There is also a cone on the upper side of the last blade to direct the flow and to insure that there is an equal gap from the cone to the casing.
The other one is a standard Tesla turbine (pump), but the output on one side is just directed through a bent tube.
Which design do you think would be more efficient? I guess it is the second one, because the first one just splashes the water in all directions and then compresses it back together, so that the water first increases the radius of the circular flow, and then it decreases it again. Also, water in the first example will leave the output in a spiral motion (is this good or bad?). In ordinary watercrafts the water also is exiting the propeller part in twisting motion, but is then strightened out by a series of blades. In the second example the water does not need to be straightened out, because it is not twisted. But on the other hand, I have heared that you can put more water through a pipe if the water is moving in vortexlike fashion.
Thanks,
Jetijs

[rickoff]

Reply to Jetijs:

Hi Jetijs,

I agree that the second method is the preferable one. Don't alter the pump design - just route the intake and exhaust flows as needed.

Have you done any further experimenting with your Tesla turbine's inlet nozzle design? I have some thoughts on that, and will write about that later.

Rick

[Jetijs]

Rick,
thank you for your answer
So far I have not done anything with the turbine, it just sits on the shelf. I am a bit short on money for now, so I use all my spare time on a project that will make some income. Anyway, look at this video:
YouTube - Tesla Turbine water pump

I like the idea of double output lines, because if we want to use it in a watercraft, I think that water inertia or other forces could make the watercraft somewhat instable if only one water outlet is used. Using one outlet on each side will cancel these probable forces out I mean something like this:

[gene gene]

Hi Rick,
After many years of looking at the Tesla turbine, thanks to you I now have a better understanding of it's simplicity and efficiency of deisign. It is a wonderful machine. Now after seeing that the vortex idea would not help the turbine, I am wondering if the opposite might be true in a pump?
Your inward spiral flow path drawing is so cool. I have tried to duplicate it with no success. I would really like to be able to draw it from a side view like a tornado, for some of my other vortex ideas.
Was wondering do know, is there a name for this cyclone funnel shape that I am trying to draw?

Thanks Gene

[rickoff]

Reply to jetijs:

Rick,
thank you for your answer
So far I have not done anything with the turbine, it just sits on the shelf. I am a bit short on money for now, so I use all my spare time on a project that will make some income. Anyway, look at this video:
YouTube - Tesla Turbine water pump

I like the idea of double output lines, because if we want to use it in a watercraft, I think that water inertia or other forces could make the watercraft somewhat instable if only one water outlet is used. Using one outlet on each side will cancel these probable forces out

Hi jetijs,

I looked at the video, but wasn't that impressed. The video does serve a useful purpose, though, and that is to show what not to do when attempting to pump water. He is using a turbine as a pump, which will work, but the Tesla pump design is far better at propelling fluids. The two relatively small holes in his discs would tend to impede water inflow, and the small outlet fitting will further restrict flow. The discs that you used in your turbine are the preferred design for the Tesla pump, so you can reuse them with confidence. The end results in the video were 5 gallons in 35 seconds, which equals 8.6 gallons per minute. Tesla had a small pump about this size (said to be about the size of a small mechanical alarm clock), and a Scientific American article stated that, "This little pump, driven by an electric motor of 1/12 horse-power, delivers 40 gallons per minute against a head of 9 feet." Some difference, isn't it?

Let's take a look at the Tesla pump exploded view for a moment:

The primary difference of the Tesla pump and Tesla turbine interior designs is that while the Tesla turbine's disc runner assembly is positioned at the center of the housing, with small and equidistant spacing between the runner and the housing, the Tesla pump runner is positioned at an offset to the housing center. As seen above, the inflow water enters the disc holes (#6), and is flung outwards with both centrifugal and tangential force as the shaft revolves and the discs spin in the direction of the arrow. The size of the water flow channel gradually inceases until it reaches a maximum size at the output flange, and this is what allows maximum fluid propulsion to occur. The water is taking the path of least resistance to the output flange, and gradually broadening the outflow channel this way constantly provides a path of lesser resistance ahead of the water flow. This directs the water flow in a perfectly symmetrical and natural pattern throughout its entire outwardly spiraling path from the disc centers to the outlet flange. It is the perfect design for a fluid pump. Tesla could have designed and built his pumps with two outlet flanges 180 degrees apart on the circumference of the pump housing, but he did not do this. I feel that he would have done this if it could have improved propulsion. I would guess that by adding another output flange 180 degrees from the one shown, that the outflow at that point would tend to slow down, and even suck the adjacent water, further along in the channel, in a backward motion, which would therefore reduce overall efficiency. As a test, you might try building the housing both ways - single flange and dual flange - just to determine the actual reduction in efficiency.

Compare the spiral flowpath of the Tesla pump to the logarithmic and ever increasing size spiral path of nature's Nautilus shell, and I think you will see a stunning similarity. Perhaps this is what inspired Tesla's pump design.

Note: This Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons image is from the user Chris 73 and is freely available at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NautilusCutawayLogarithmicSpiral.jpg under the creative commons cc-by-sa 2.5 license.

Jetijs, you can certainly split the outflow into two paths after the outlet flange if you want to direct the water jet at two points on the hull underside, or a single outlet can be directed at the hull centerline. Either method should provide stable performance.

I know this isn't the answer you were hoping for, but I hope that it helps to make the operating principles, and efficiency of the pump design more clearly understood.

Best wishes to you always jetijs,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Gene:

Hi Rick,
After many years of looking at the Tesla turbine, thanks to you I now have a better understanding of it's simplicity and efficiency of design. It is a wonderful machine. Now after seeing that the vortex idea would not help the turbine, I am wondering if the opposite might be true in a pump?
Your inward spiral flow path drawing is so cool. I have tried to duplicate it with no success. I would really like to be able to draw it from a side view like a tornado, for some of my other vortex ideas.
Was wondering do know, is there a name for this cyclone funnel shape that I am trying to draw?

Thanks Gene

My spiral flowpath illustration is modeled after the illustration shown at the Tesla Engine Builders Association website. I drew mine the same way, and added the nozzle at the top to show where the turbine flow path starts.

It seems that what you want to draw is basically a logarithmic spiral staircase, which of course would have a conical shape with increasingly larger spirals as the staircase moves upwards.

A cyclone, or hurricane, is this type of conical logarithmic spiral, as is a tornado. These are natural vortex examples. The logarithmic spiral flowpath in a Tesla turbine or Tesla pump is similar in appearance, but neither has a vortex effect at the center. The Tesla pump is closer to a vortex in that the force path radiates outward from the center, rather than inwards as in the turbine. Unlike a tornado, however, where the highest velocity is near the center (around the "eye" of the storm), the velocity increases in the Tesla pump as the spiral moves outwards. This is because of adhesion of the water molecules to the disc surface, and the fact that water in the outermost spirals is traveling a greater distance per revolution than water near the center opening of the discs.

Hope that helps,

Rick

[Jetijs]

Thanks Rick
I agree with you! Most Tesla pumps in youtube are just Tesla motor turbines used as a pump, without the spiral pathway. I guess that this is because the spiral path casing is harder to build than a Tesla motor turbine. Anyway, your post gave me some encouragement to start working on a pump casing for my blades. It will be more difficult, but I will manage it
Thanks,
Jetijs

[rileydad48]

Thanks Rick
I agree with you! Most Tesla pumps in youtube are just Tesla motor turbines used as a pump, without the spiral pathway. I guess that this is because the spiral path casing is harder to build than a Tesla motor turbine. Anyway, your post gave me some encouragement to start working on a pump casing for my blades. It will be more difficult, but I will manage it
Thanks,
Jetijs

Rick, Jetijs...

Just a quick question... What actually drives a jet ski ? Is it the velocity of the exiting water or the volume of water ? Or a combination of the two? I know a propeller acts like a large screw in the water.. driving a boat forward, but with the tesla pump, will you need more volume or more pressure?? Does the vaccum created at the inlet play a part in the propulltion?

Paul

[rickoff]

Rick, Jetijs...

Just a quick question... What actually drives a jet ski ? Is it the velocity of the exiting water or the volume of water ? Or a combination of the two? I know a propeller acts like a large screw in the water.. driving a boat forward, but with the tesla pump, will you need more volume or more pressure?? Does the vaccum created at the inlet play a part in the propulltion?

Paul

Hi Paul,

The amount of propulsion is due to both velocity and volume of the water jet outflow. Velocity, of course, is mainly influenced by the rpm of the jet ski impeller, or of a Tesla pump. Volume is influenced by the efficiency of the pump mechanism. Impellers are rather inefficient because they chop and thrash water, while a Tesla pump promotes a very smooth throughflow with negligible resistance. I feel fairly certain that one could actually replace the propeller on an outboard engine with a well built Tesla pump, and that this would result in better performance as long as the outflow jet is kept below the water surface, where it will have the greatest thrust effect. You could have some fair sized discs in a propeller replacement, and the length of a prop shaft would allow for a fairly large number of discs to be incorporated. The water moving ability will be proportional to the total surface area of the discs, so the more discs the better, as long as the engine can produce the desired torque. I would suggest 25 to 30 discs for such an application, or possibly even more. One would have to experiment some in that regard.

And yes, the vacuum action at the inlet does play a part in the propulsion. The faster you can draw water in, the faster you can move it out, providing that the outflow is non-restrictive as in the Tesla pump.

Best,

Rick

[rickoff]

A trip to the library....

Hi folks,

After dropping my wife off at a hairdresser appointment a few days ago, I had some time to kill before picking her up and decided to take a walk to the local library. Sitting down at the library's computer, I ran a search on the word "Tesla," not expecting to actually find much of anything. I was quite pleasantly surprised to find that they did have a copy of the book Tesla - Master of Lightning on hand. The book had only been let out 4 times in the past 8 years, since it was newly stocked, so is in very good condition. It's a great book, with lots of interesting information and many excellent photographs. There is a section devoted to the Tesla Turbine, and I thought it would be interesting to share some of the photos with you. Here is the first one, and this shows the 200 hp Tesla turbine with the upper half of the housing removed. Notice the precise fit of the disc runner, or rotor, as tagged below the photo. The Tesla turbine requires a precise fit, with very little clearance between the rotor and the housing at both the circumference and the sides, to operate at maximum efficiency. While the photo is not sharply focused, and was not taken in a straight-on angle to allow viewing the clearance between the discs, it is said that this model had 25 discs within the runner assembly. The photo caption states that the runner was 3 inches from side to side, and that agrees with most information I have seen elsewhere, although one other account states that it was 3.5 inches wide. The shiny end discs appear to be made thicker than the intervening discs, since the runner would be at least 4 inches wide, and with no spacing between discs, if all 25 discs were of this thickness. A Popular Mechanics article stated that the inner dics were each 1/32 inch thick, but that does seem thin for an 18 inch diameter disc and would have required relatively wide spacing for this 3 inch overall width runner. Here's the photo:

[Alana]

Hello Rick,

thanks for the very interesting photo.
It doesn't surprise me that some books show photos from Teslas turbine.
The point is how much energy is necessary to run this 200 HP engine. Does he run this engine on air or water? How long does this engine run and witch kind of energy storage does he use?

Alana