Friction Steam Boiler

[rickoff]

Hi Alana,

The answers to your questions can be found in the 4th paragraph of my post #308 on page 11 of this thread. You may have missed seeing that earlier.

My idea in showing actual Tesla turbine photos is not to promote the use of a 200 hp turbine for use with Lloyd's friction device, and obviously that would be way more power than one would need. I just thought it would be interesting for people to see how the master actually constructed his turbines, and this opened view offers a rare opportunity to see the inner details up close.

Best regards to you,

Rick

Best regards,

Rick

[gene gene]

Hi Rick,

Neat photo of Tesla's 200 HP turbine. It has a much more precise fit than I had envisioned. I now see that the steam is immediately put to work.
Have you seen this bladeless turbine vidieo?
International Automated Systems
Awesome sound, looks like alot of steam to me.
Do you think because of their patents pending on their turbine that they might be able to stop anyone from building and selling a device with a Tesla turbine?
I wonder what their rocket nozzle looks like.

Gene

[rickoff]

Reply to Gene:

Hi Rick,

Neat photo of Tesla's 200 HP turbine. It has a much more precise fit than I had envisioned. I now see that the steam is immediately put to work.
Have you seen this bladeless turbine vidieo?
International Automated Systems
Awesome sound, looks like alot of steam to me.
Do you think because of their patents pending on their turbine that they might be able to stop anyone from building and selling a device with a Tesla turbine?
I wonder what their rocket nozzle looks like.
Gene

Hi Gene,

From what I see in the turbine's opened end view, shown at the following IAS link [ IAUS Bladeless Turbine ] , it would appear that the turbine simply uses rotating nozzles within a chamber to create a propulsive reactive steam jet, which is quite similar to the operation of Heron's Steam Ball [ see Smith College Museum of Ancient Inventions: Heron's Steam Engine ] but in an enclosed environment. In other words, a rotating nozzle reaction turbine. Of course they may also be incorporating Tesla turbine discs further back and unseen in their barrel type enclosure, and then channeling the steam exhaust from the discs through the nozzles to utilize whatever unspent energy that escapes the discs. This doesn't seem likely, though, since - as you pointed out - there is a lot of steam escaping from the turbine shown in the video. Notice that in the small unit shown in the video, there is a distinct rotating pattern of escaping steam during the first 2 seconds of operation, which is suggestive of rotating nozzles. In a well built Tesla turbine, if the discs are of sufficient diameter then the steam will be fully (or near fully) utilized for propulsion and condensed to water at the exhaust. It would be interesting to view their patent to determine what they are actually doing, but they do not list a patent number at their website. I tried to send an inquiry on their "Contact" page, but that function is not working. If you have a little time to kill, you might try searching US and International patents to see what may be found listed under International Automated Systems. You need not worry about patent infringement, since both Tesla turbine design and rotating reactive steam nozzle designs are nothing new. It is inconceivable that they could obtain a patent on either design, so they have probably patented something else which is used as an integral system component which is considered unique. That's the only way that anyone can claim patent right while utilizing either method, or utilizing a combination of the two methods.

Rick

[Jetijs]

Rick,
have you read the Tesla patents about his flying machine? He says that he employs his turbines for the lifting force. I guess he is using a variation of his fluid pump with the needed changes for air propulsion. Is that right? And what about this:
Nikola Tesla's Flying Machine - his Flying Stove

This is also supposed to be one of Teslas inventions, but I can't find this in the complete list of Tesla's patents that I have. This method does not have any turbines, just rotating mass. What do you think about that?
Thank you!

[rickoff]

Reply to jetijs:

Hi jetijs,

Yes, I am familiar with Tesla's flying machine patent. That is US patent # 1,655,114 and issued in 1928. Tesla planned to use his gas turbine design, which was patented in 1920. The prototype gasoline turbine used 10 inch diameter Monell discs, and revved up to over 30,000 rpm. At this high rpm rate, and under high operating temperature, the Monell discs were said to expand about 1/16 inch on the diameter. Allowing for the expansion meant that the turbine would be a bit less efficient at startup, but it was still way ahead of anything else available at the time. John Whitesell, a young engineer who worked withTesla on the development of the gas turbine at the Budd Company in Philadelphia, later stated, "Should Tesla have had metals then as are available today to take over 3,000 degrees, the turbine would have been a success, as the principles are the same." (Whitesell - 1963)

The title for Tesla's flying machine patent was "Apparatus for Aerial Transportation," and it was also popularly called the "Flying Flivver."
According to Tesla, the device would weigh about 800 pounds. It was designed to take off and land vertically like a helicopter, and then the propulsion blade would pitch forward horizontally to act as a propeller. The operator's seat would swivel to allow the pilot to remain in a normal seated position at all times. Lacking money and a workshop, Tesla was unable to build an actual prototype of this design. It's an interesting concept that was way ahead of its time, and obviously the precursor for modern helicopters and VTOL aircraft such as the Harrier Jet.

I looked at the device that you showed a link to, and it looks to me as though the builder had no idea what Tesla was actually referring to. Now Tesla had also mentioned that he dreamed of an air/space ship that would be lifted and propelled by use of some hitherto unused energy source. He may have actually come up with a design and method for that, but chances are that we will never know for certain since the FBI would probably be holding those documents if they exist. We can speculate as to what form of energy he may have been contemplating as using for such a craft (magnetic, gravity/anti-gravity, cosmic ray concentrator, particle beam, time machine, teletransportation, etc.) but one guess is as good as another. If I had to make a guess, I would say either a Pulsed Inductive Thruster or Electrostatic Ion Thruster, as the working principles would have been well understood by him.

Here are some diagrams from Tesla's flying machine patent:



The entire patent document can be downloaded here as a pdf file:
US patent 1655114.pdf - Windows Live


Best regards,

Rick

[Jetijs]

Thanks Rick
Your posts are great as usual!
Can you maybe tell a bit more about the gasoline turbine? How did it work. Did it work similar than jet engines where air is mixed with gasoline? Because so far I only know two types of Tesla turbines, one is for steam or pressurized gas that turns the shaft and other is the water pump with the spiral shaped flow path. This sounds very interesting

[rickoff]

Re: Tesla Gas Turbine

Hi Jetijs,

The Tesla Gas Turbine is difficult to find because it is mentioned and pictured within Tesla's "Valvular Conduit" US patent #1,329,559. There may be a separate patent for the gas turbine, but I am not aware of it at this time. Basically, the gas turbine is very much the same as Tesla's steam turbine, and uses the same discs we are familiar with. The difference is that gasoline is introduced through a valvular conduit which acts as a one way valve, and the gasoline is burned within a small chamber. Air is introduced from the opposite side of the combustion chamber. The hot, expanding gasses are then projected at the discs of the rotor assembly in a fashion similar to how we would introduce steam or air. The full description can be read at: Nikola Tesla: Disk Turbine / Pump (Articles, patents, links)

Here is a cutaway view of the Gas Turbine:

Let me know if you need further info, and I will see what I can find.

Best wishes,

Rick

[Alana]

Hi all,

I am always interested in new issues. And I love this Tesla things (as they are real).
But aren't we far away from our original topic (Friction boiler)?

Alana

[Jetijs]

Rick, you are a walking library
Thank you so much!
But I agree, this goes a bit off topic. So no more questions for now

[rickoff]

Reply to Alana:

Hi all,

I am always interested in new issues. And I love this Tesla things (as they are real).
But aren't we far away from our original topic (Friction boiler)?

Alana

Hi Alana,

Yes, it may seem that we are a bit off topic, but we have been discussing the use of Tesla turbines specifically for use with Lloyd's friction device, either to supply the motive force to drive the roller shaft, or to drive a generator, or both. We have also been discussing use of Tesla pumps to circulate water through parts of a system connected to Lloyd's device. Tesla turbines and pumps really do appear to be a perfect match for Lloyd's technology, and that is why I am happy to answer any questions regarding Tesla turbines and pumps. Of couse I will continue to field any questions that arise concerning Lloyd's friction heater, but we haven't had any such questions in recent weeks. It would appear that nearly all questions regarding Lloyd's device have already been answered adequately, but if there is anything that you or others are still unsure of, please let me know.

I will be in touch with Lloyd again soon, and I am hoping that he will be able to offer some updated news and to share some photos of his newer device with the 10 inch diameter friction roller. I am also hoping to see some progress reports from people who have been working on replications, as I think this will prove quite useful to readers.

Thanks for your continued participation, Alana.

Best wishes,

Rick

[rickoff]

Update:

Hi folks,

It has been 10 days since my last post, so thought I would give you an update as to what is currently happening. I have used the interim time to catch up on some projects in my home, and to participate in some additional threads here on the forum, including a new one I started concerning a permanent magnet motor (PMM) concept that I have been thinking about for quite some time now. If interested, you can find that here: http://www.energeticforum.com/48790-post1.html
Always busy!

I have also been working on an inquiry to send to Lloyd regarding his 10 inch horizontal roller friction device. I'm hoping to get some additional info on that, and maybe a photo or two. Do any of you readers have a question that you would like me to pass on to Lloyd which has not been asked or addressed here already? If so, please let me know.

Thanks,

Rick

[silversearcher]

any builders out there?

I was just wondering if anyone on this list has built any thing yet (other than Jetijs fine turbine and his early attempts at the friction generator).
Anyone else built and tested any steam engine or better yet Tesla's turbine?
Has anyone (again, other than Jetijs' attempt way back there) built any kind of friction steam generator?

If so Pleeeeese tell us about your efforts... good or bad results.

Jetits, have you made anymore headway with your efforts?

I have worked on a steam engine, but it is unfinished due to seeing much more potential in the turbine.
In another 2-3 months, (I have several unrelated projects to finish), I will be starting prototypes of a Friction generator and a turbine.

Ron

[gene gene]

Hi Rick,

Good to here from you again. Still thinking about Lloyds steam everyday. I picked up a small craft sized table saw with no motor at the salvage yard the other day for $3. I will try to modify for my 1/4 scale build. Bearings seem to be very smooth.
The snow and ice is mostly gone here, although we still drove on the lake ice fishing yesterday, got a nice bunch of fish. I was thinking the heating season will be winding down soon but it's never to hot here for a steam generator that might produce some electricity.
I found something else the other day that peaked my thinking and was wondering if you might take a look at it. It seems like a perfect match for a Lloyds device if it doesn't need to much steam. I can't find any recent info on it. Pursuit Dynamics was issued patent #6,662,549 (steam drive) 16 Dec 2003. I don't quite understand how it works but I would sure like to have one on one of my boats with a Lloyds device driving it. What a clean, green, ecofriendly boat that would be.

Boating Business: New engine matches 2-stroke efficiency

Boating Business: 'Is that with steam or electric drive, sir?'

Pursuit Dynamics PLC

In you're communications with Lloyd has he ever said what T B Pickens wanted? If you already answered this I apologize.

Thanks, Gene

[rickoff]

Reply to Ron (silversearcher):

I was just wondering if anyone on this list has built any thing yet (other than Jetijs fine turbine and his early attempts at the friction generator).
Anyone else built and tested any steam engine or better yet Tesla's turbine?
Has anyone (again, other than Jetijs' attempt way back there) built any kind of friction steam generator?

If so Pleeeeese tell us about your efforts... good or bad results.

Jetits, have you made anymore headway with your efforts?

I have worked on a steam engine, but it is unfinished due to seeing much more potential in the turbine.
In another 2-3 months, (I have several unrelated projects to finish), I will be starting prototypes of a Friction generator and a turbine.

Ron

Hi Ron,

What steam engine were you working on, and have you started in on a Tesla turbine now? With winter on the wane, I'm sure that some who have started a friction heater project will be putting it on the back burner, so to speak, for a little while. I started, several months ago, to search for project materials at the local recycling center. Whenever building something, I like to employ as many free materials as possible. It's amazing what people drop off at the recycling center each day, and I usually end up bringing more stuff home than I take there. I found a perfectly good 1.75 hp DC motor that I salvaged from a discarded treadmill, an AC induction motor from a washing machine, some sheet metal and structural steel, bearings, and other good stuff. I always take a socket set, wrenches, and screwdrivers with me when I go, so that I can remove parts that I want from larger assemblies without need of lugging everything home. I plan to be moving closer to my cottage soon, and won't be able to actually work on my project until then, but will be certain to have my friction heater finished before next winter sets in.

I answered a question similar to yours several weeks ago, and I'll resubmit the answer here again, as it may be helpful to you and others:

I have heard from several people who have replication projects underway, and I have encouraged them to post construction details, photos, and video links in this thread. I would love to build one myself, but spent so much time working on this thread that winter moved in before I could get very much accomplished. My project will probably have to wait until summer, as I am currently straight out on prepping my home for sale. If I can find some extra time somehow, I will construct a small scale working model (perhaps 1/8 to 1/4 scale), and I highly suggest that as a first step for anyone contemplating a replication. With a scaled down replication, you can build your model at little cost. Testing and modifying your build will also be easier and less costly. Also, a small model such as this will be capable of doing some useful work such as space heating in a garage or small workshop, heating water for a hot water tank, or distilling water. If you build at 1/4 scale, you can use a rotor of 1.25" height and diameter made from an iron pipe, a 1/4 hp electric drive motor, and 1" x 1" x 4" pieces of green hardwood. So if you have the time, why not give that a try? You can probably round up most of the materials from your local recycling center, and keep your costs to a minimum. And please do share your results with us.

Best wishes to you,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Gene:

I found something else the other day that peaked my thinking and was wondering if you might take a look at it. It seems like a perfect match for a Lloyds device if it doesn't need to much steam. I can't find any recent info on it. Pursuit Dynamics was issued patent #6,662,549 (steam drive) 16 Dec 2003. I don't quite understand how it works but I would sure like to have one on one of my boats with a Lloyds device driving it. What a clean, green, ecofriendly boat that would be.

Boating Business: 'Is that with steam or electric drive, sir?'

In you're communications with Lloyd has he ever said what T B Pickens wanted? If you already answered this I apologize.

Thanks, Gene

Hi Gene,

There are numerous ways that you could propel a boat with steam power, and the device that you mention is certainly one acceptable method. What outboard motor horsepower rating are you hoping to approximate?

I haven't heard what became of Pickens' inquiry into Lloyd's device, but will ask Lloyd about that. Pickens was probably hoping to corner the design and shelve it, but he got to Lloyd a bit too late since the design info was already posted for public access in this thread with Lloyd's permission. Because of that, Pickens no doubt would have been very hesitant to make an offer for the rights.

Best regards to you,

Rick