Regarding The Ed Gray Motor

[Beshires1]

good By11111

[Beshires1]

I read somewhere that the coils all fired at once. If that is true I find it hard to believe that any power could be recovered from this particular motor. In that it has 3 stator coils. With this in mind, All the magnets on the rotor would have to fire producing the same magnetic field either north or south, and the stator magnets would have to also produce the same field as the rotor, to get the needed magnetic repulsion to continue the rotation. This is why a start motor was needed to get the larger one to start its rotation. It could not self start with this wiring scheme, but once it was spinning it would sustain its own rotation and produce a large HP.
Now if only one of the three magnets fires at firing alignment then, the other two non firing contacts could be aligned to allow power recovery. this would happen 3 times per rotation, but the motor would not produce the power it would if they all fired at once.

[Joit]

Its maybe the 2nd Impuls, what gives the Power back.
The first turns the Rotor, and then the input is locked, and you can get out the Power.

I read today something about only Pulsed DC is natural, all other Kind of Current is unnatural.
I think all time about a Setup, where the positive Amplitude from AC should drive the Rotor, but i cant stop, to play around with Coils.

[Beshires1]

Here is a file that I constructed, to help see how the commutator works. Notice the two different wiper configurations? The single wiper configuration is this one http://keelynet.com/evgray/128.jpg .And the 3 wiper configuration as seen here http://keelynet.com/evgray/125.jpg . These are two different motor assemblies, and are not both part of the same motor.

[ren]

I think you may be a little off as to its operation guys. Then again, no one can really be certain. This might interest you, if you havent seen it already. YouTube - The History of the EV Gray Motor - Lecture

[Beshires1]

Yes I allready have that video.

I think you may be a little off as to its operation guys. Then again, no one can really be certain.

That sounds like a conflicting opinion. I'm trying to figure out the commutator by using photos of the actual device. Along with the patent drawings and descriptions.I have compiled a mountain of files and articles on the motors of EV Gray. I have a pretty good knowledge of the workings of a DC Motor and commutating power to the coil or coils. Dissecting the photos, you can learn a lot, Especially when it is a prepared photo series. In one file I read where the "found" motors commutator showed allmost no signs of wear.
By looking at this photo http://keelynet.com/evgray/128.jpg I can see signs of wear, but more importantly, I know this motor had to run to produce this wear. Whether it preformed as claimed I don't know.

[ren]

It is conflicting, because I havent personally seen or built the device in question. The only information I can add is hearsay, or educated guesses based upon pictures and info. The video I linked to above is from a gent who personally got his hands on some of the motors, inspected them and studied them fairly vigorously from what I hear. I am inclined to listen to what he has to say, since he has had hands on experience with them. If I recall correctly Norman said there were different phases of firing, so all firing at once doesnt sound correct. Then again the stator has 3 poles and the rotor has three poles, all seemingly @ 120 degrees or thereabouts. Also, there are a few different motors, and what you say about one may be correct, but be incorrect to a later version.

From memory Norman said something about the rotor and stator coils were linked in series when they fired, I have to watch the video again I think. I also think the electromagnets that fire on the stator and rotor arent part of the recovery/recharging system in the way most people think.

From what I understand the Rotor/stator is the easy part of this build. Its the power supply/method that is the hard part.

[Beshires1]

If I recall correctly Norman said there were different phases of firing, so all firing at once doesnt sound correct. Then again the stator has 3 poles and the rotor has three poles, all seemingly @ 120 degrees or thereabouts. Also, there are a few different motors, and what you say about one may be correct, but be incorrect to a later version.

From memory Norman said something about the rotor and stator coils were linked in series when they fired, I have to watch the video again I think. I also think the electromagnets that fire on the stator and rotor arent part of the recovery/recharging system in the way most people think.

From what I understand the Rotor/stator is the easy part of this build. Its the power supply/method that is the hard part.

Yes the Rotor and Stator setup is the easy part. Its the distributor style commutator That I'm trying to figure out.

[Jules Tresor]

Also informatins on Ed Gray here

Hello,

You may find some more information here also:

http://radiant.100free.com/zpe_gray.html

there are a few pages on Ed Gray, but also many other Special Electromagnetic Motors

good luck !
it's possible !

MDG

[Beshires1]

ED Grey Power Conversion Tube and RFI

How the ED Grey Power tube works, in that it is basically a large spark plug. The perforated copper shielding actually absorbs the RFI emitted from the high voltage spark.
RFI or "Radio Frequency Interference":
*** Many people believe that spark plugs fire instantly. This is partly true because they fire in milliseconds, although if one looks at an oscilloscope pattern you will see much more than a single instantaneous firing event. Many things also occur that you cannot see even with the oscilloscope. Part of what you cannot see, but can in many cases hear, is the noise that is picked up in the speakers of your car stereo. This is called RFI, or Radio Frequency Interference.
Spark Plug Firing Voltages:
*** When the breaker points or solid state ignition unit (switching device) interrupts current flow in the primary ignition circuit and induces current flow into the secondary windings of the coil, there is an instantaneous voltage spike.. This represents the voltage required to overcome the spark plug and distributor rotor gaps. Once the spark gaps have been bridged, the secondary voltage required to sustain the spark across the gap is much less and drops . The spark continues to arc across the gap at more or less constant voltage until the arc is extinguished . This is due to coil energy drop in that it can not sustain the spark any longer. During this arc duration (Spark Duration), the plug actually fires several times. This is caused by high frequency oscillations in the primary and secondary windings of the coil, which continues to induce voltage spikes. They continue and slowly diminish* even after they are no longer strong enough to sustain spark. All of this takes place in roughly one thousandth of a second.
*** With our race designed ignition units, they concentrate their efforts on sustaining spark duration as well as limiting the voltage drop after the gaps have been bridged. Most aftermarket ignitions concentrate on giving us 20° of spark duration (crank degrees) as well as much higher spark energy output. A high performance coil helps this out, but the Capacitive discharge and digital ignition units assist in storing and delivering this power through the coil more efficiently, faster and give the ability to achieve higher RPMs more safely and efficiently in fuel mixture burning.
The Cause of RFI:
*** If we were to slow down the oscilloscope to perhaps 0.00000025 seconds and greatly expand the pattern, we would see that what appears to be consistent from position C to D in the the first illustration above is actually a series of extremely high bursts of energy. These energy bursts are discharged at the same frequency band as radio and TV frequencies. It is these bursts that make your car radio snap - crackle - and pop ... as well as just about anything electronic including telephones, aircraft control towers and heart pace makers by causing static and interference.
Sources of RFI:
*** Automotive ignition systems are not the only things that spew RFI into the atmosphere. Lawn mowers, snowmobiles, ATV's, tractors, power lines, traffic control devices, etc. all do it. One publication refers it to "electronic air pollution". As many of us know, we live in a sea of constant electromagnetic waves.
*** Any time you have a flow of electric current you will have a magnetic field. Coils, relays, switches, solenoids, generators, servomotors all affect communication equipment, electronic circuits and computers. The higher the voltages, the more critical this becomes. Anytime you have the spark jump a gap or a contact, you have a miniature radio transmitter.
RFI Standards:
** Back in the 1930's, engineers recognized that RFI could be a nuisance. As the years, testing and technology advancements went by, it turned into an even greater problem. Especially with the advent of high-tech communications systems, computers and electronic engine control devices. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) decided to set up standards for measuring as well as the control of RFI. These are called "EMI Standards" or the more technical name for radio static of Electromagnetic Interference (EMI).
*** The current standard for EMI was adopted in 1961 and is known as J551. It limits RFI at frequencies between 20-1,000 MHz. All spark plug manufacturers must adhere to it. The most common method used to suppress RFI is to install a resistor in series with the spark plug's center electrode.
** Other ways that control RFI include:
The metal fenders, grille and hood of your car. These provide a shielding affect which absorbs much of the RFI emitted from your ignition components. Plastic and composite body panels are basically transparent to RFI and provide little to no shielding.
*** The use of capacitors, silicone grease at connections, proper grounding of all circuits and routing wires to reduce electromagnetic interference are all helpful in reducing RFI.
*** The use of carbon impregnated secondary wiring (plug wires) and resistor spark plugs have the most impact when reducing and controlling RFI. In our race cars with our high output ignitions, it is best to use a specifically designed plug wire for our applications. These are usually the what is called "Spiral Wound" style plug wires.* The construction of these wires starts with a Ferro0-Magnetic impregnated inner core, helical wrapped copper alloy conductor, a high dielectric insulator then a heavy fiberglass braid. Wrapping this is a 8mm to 10mm silicone jacket. Also, secure connections of the plug wire's terminal ends are mandatory along with secure fitting boots.
Enter The Edwin Gray Energy System Figure 6.

When you put a high potential current across two separate elements, ionization will occur between them. The high voltage elements 12 & 34 develop a predischarge
plasma glow between them. The charge polarity given to the tube 14 in the Gray circuit puts it into an impulse mode. When a predischarge
glow is present in this mode
no current flows. The tube 14 functions pretty much like a Geiger radiation detection tube waiting for an electromagnetic surge to trigger it into conduction.
Discharge occurs across the spark gap 62 once the capacitor 16 charges to the gaps' breakdown voltage. Once the arc is broken the capacitor 16 recharges, the cycle
repeats and the cycle repeats so long as the batteries remain charged. This discharge current flows along the red wire shown in Figure 6.
Consider an electron moving through a magnetic field, whose lines of force are at right angles to its direction of motion. It is known that the electron is constrained to move
Consider an electron moving through a magnetic field, whose lines of force are at right angles to its direction of motion. It is known that the electron is constrained to move
in a circular path. In fact, if the field is made strong enough the electron may be forced to revolve in a circular orbit whose diameter is smaller than the field. If a magnetic
field is applied transversely to the motion of the electrons, they may be deflected to such an extent as to prevent them from reaching the plate. Thus they are constrained to
return to the cathode. A.W. Hall of the General Electric Co. was the first to use this principle in a highly efficient vacuum tube converter that he called a magnetron. The
sudden discharge through the element 12 generates an intense electromagnetic field that collapses very abruptly. This discharges the energy stored in capacitor 38 in
series with the load 36 and capacitor 16. During this discharge cycle capacitors 16 & 38 recharge and in the same moment a powerful surge of electrical oscillations
flows through the load 36. The collapsing magnetic field in conjunction with the reappearance of the preglow
discharge instantly generates a pulse train of electrical
oscillations. This surge of power runs Gray's unique high frequency motor. The motor functions with extreme efficiency because DC resistance is reduced to a minimum
and wasteful heat loss is practically nonexistent
in this system.
The blue wires represent the high frequency current path that powers the load 36.
The red wires represent the current discharge path that occurs when the spark gap in the Gray conversion tube 14 fires. Storage batteries 40 and 18 alternately recover
the discharge energy through a double poled
switch 48.
When the capacitor 16 discharges an intense oscillating high frequency electromagnetic field is generated through the "switching tube" and load circuit.
Diode 46 returns nearly 100% of the energy that is not used by load 36.
Capacitor 38 and inductive load 36 constitutes a tank circuit that resonates at 6Khz.

[john_g]

Help with caps for gray tube

Hi

Can any one help me? I am hoping to build a gray tube and in the diagrams at http://radiant.100free.com/zpe_gray_sparktube.html , the caps are 5KVA and 12UF - where can I get these from? I have looked at the RS site and cannot find those ratings. I also notice on the same diagram that the cap on the HV tube input is polizarised, does that mean all the caps in the circuit should be also? Any help will be much appricated.

Many thans

John

[Aaron]

caps and size

Hi John,

I believe the caps should be polarized and you also don't need one that big. 3-4kv and 2uf is the lower size that works.

[Jules Tresor]

about sparking tube

Hi,

happy to read again somebody wanting to work on Gray's tube

you might use a Marx Generator as experimenters get success with it, and it uses small HV caps, what is cheaper and easier to find !

"400pF 30KV ones are $12.50 each. The 6.5KV 1500pF are 99 cents each"
from: http://radiant.100free.com/zpe_gray_mckay2.html

marx generators:
http://radiant.100free.com/zpe_marx_generator.html

you should try also with circuits found in the water exploding experiments, because it's even easier and cheaper to get high RF sparks, like you can see in Jetijs videos:
SCR triggered CDI system with water spark mod YouTube - SCR triggered CDI system with water spark mod

good luck,
and don't forget to report any results, good or bad,

MDG

[Guest]

About his motor I have not seen anything detailed but I have read his patents from -86 and -87.

Basically as I understand it he sends a magnetic pulse(south pole pulse ionizes positively, north pole negative) which ionizes the coil and repels the south side of the rotor magnets. During the next moment(when breaking off the HV pulse train) the back EMF from this coil is sent to the charge battery and then the next phase is pulsing the magnet again at 120 deg angle. Hence his results.

We have to think magnetic pulse, the electric phenomenon will come after the magnetic pulse(cold current, radiant charge etc), but that is only my guess at this moment. Remember a strike of lightning can magnetize a cliff permanently!

[john_g]

Aaron, Stephenfreter and Gauss

Many thanks to you all for your inputs. Aaron thanks for pointing out a lower cap will do, I am still having difficulty sourcing a cap of the correct type, so may try making my own caps with foil. Stephenfreter thanks for the steer towards the Marx generator - very impressive and an idea to keep in mind. Gauss, thanks for your comments, I am intending to initially use a single coil to prove the concept.

Will post back when I have something to show.