Condensation-Induced Water Hammer

[Vortex]

hey jove,

were not we both "junior members" at the being of this posting?
I'm not a junior now.
I got nothing done today towards obtaining a steam source.
Working for a living isn't something I want to keep doing.

[byjoveoldchap]

hi. theres quite a lot of viktor schauberger around, actually. especially nowadays.

if anyone here has seen the 2008 documentary on schauberger "comprehend and copy nature", then please let me know, id really like to hear what you thought of it and how well made it was.

theres a reason why erfinder2's site forgotten genius links moray,tesla,stubblefield,schappeller,keely,russell ,schauberger,wilhelm reich.. and as allcanadian and the rest have pointed out, it becomes more evident the more you muck around with it.

-a ****ing pothed-

Wow, thats a great help esaruoho thankyou for providing so many useful links!

It was quite a few years ago that I researched Victor, or should I say Viktors? work.

There was no U-tube around then and the only helpful English reading material was provided by Callum Coats. So those video links will be very interesting to watch and learn more of his discoveries.

Thanks again.

[byjoveoldchap]

"junior members"

hey jove,

were not we both "junior members" at the being of this posting?
I'm not a junior now.
I got nothing done today towards obtaining a steam source.
Working for a living isn't something I want to keep doing.

I haven't a clue Vortex, I have no idea how these forums work. I certainly wouldn't call myself a junior now, fifty plus years ago I might have but not today!

So you've finally grown up have you? Well, we all have to get old one day so welcome to the club.

Work? whoever invented that wants to try it themselves. Personally I think the Annunaki had a lot to do with that, but this isn't the time or place!

Chin up old chap, we must carry on regardless, what, what?

By Jove!

[byjoveoldchap]

Am I totally off base here?
It seems to me to be valid conclusions.

Randy

I know.. I know .. I can see it also, but are we seeing the same thing?

I don't think we are both seeing from the same viewpoint, but that is good because what I miss you point out to me, ha, ha!

The pulses are from the sudden steam expansion, pushing the water
out of the tube. Condensed steam sucks water back up the tube but
not into the boiler. The boiler runs out of water.
Do not the boats run out of steam/water?

The vacuum caused by the steam condensing, does suck the water back into the boiler and the process continues. The boiler does not run out of water or steam, it is the fuel that runs out.

To extract work using this method, other than boat propulsion, would
require pistons, would it not? A cooling system or a means to push
water back into the boiler to keep it going.

Well, I thought I had covered an idea on a steam engine principle earlier. We are only looking at the pop-pop boat as an illustration of the simplest steam condensation effect, aren't we?

Now here's where sharing thoughts creates deeper thinking.

You said
"The water is moving in and out, back and forth in the tubes in both directions."
Yes of course, I was thinking, then I realised something. The water does move in and out, back and forward in BOTH directions, so HOW does it actually MOVE forward?

I may be wrong here, but bear with me...
The water is forced OUT under steam pressure, thus moving the boat forward
But the water is also sucked IN which should cause the boat to move backwards, but it doesn't. Now why is that?

Okay, we have a pointed end and a blunt end on the boat, so that may have an effect, but if we turned the engine around so that we have the motor pushing the blunt end first, would it go backwards? I think NOT. Can you see what I'm really curious about here? It would seem to me that more energy is provided in the expansion mode than in the condensing mode, but is that true?

I'll leave it there for now while I finish replying to your other questions/thoughts.

I should have used the topic "Condensation-Induced water jet"

Condensation of steam is an implosive event, inward.
Yes, a collapse [just as a coil collapses]

When a shockwave is stopped, this causes the hammer event.
Agreed

In an open pipe, like this device, the wave is not stopped,
it is diverted out the end of the pipe and thus no hammer event?
Agreed, but remember it is also reflected internally and then exits from end of pipe.

The wave does hit the inside of the pipe but isn't stopped.
No, it is reflected as above. Agreed.

Gosh, I hope this isn't going to be really loud .. that will never do.
hmmm... it might make my old dentures rattle a bit

The shockwave is from the water rushing it to fill the void and
since water does not compress it comes to a sudden stop after
filling the void. This sudden stop causes a shockwave to ripple outward.

This shockwave is an energy wave, a pulse, like that of a tsunami,
except a tsunami can be directional or not.
It doesn't make the water move from point A to point B.
The wave moves from point A to point B, but the water does not move.
The shockwave does NOTHING to move the water through
the tube.

Wow, I think you have made some very valid points there!
"The wave moves from point A to point B, but the water does not move."
That is very interesting indeed. I won't be able to sleep now, I'll be thinking about that all night long!

IMO both of these phases, "hammer effect" and shockwave,
confuse the conversation because neither
has anything to do with putting the water into motion in this device.
Both have meaning in the context of a closed steam pipe system, but
not in the context of moving water.

Oh no, I won't sleep for a month now until I understand exactly HOW the water moves!

Oh dear, I think I'll stick with the Steam-Rocket idea, that was much simpler...!!!

Am I totally off base here?
It seems to me to be valid conclusions

Totally valid and very well thought out, now can you tell me the answer so I can get some sleep, please?

Hang on, the water moves in the put, put... I mean the pop-pop motor, so where does that take us?

By Jove!

[Vortex]

oh jove,

The pop-pop boat is confusing you.
I don't blame you one bit though.
You had a point of reference, the pop-pop, and you grabbed a hold of it.
I don't totally understand those pop-pop boats either, but but but
It moves by expansion of water into steam.
The water at 212 F degrees turns into steam at 212 F degree.
This transformation requires, ah, over ~900+ BTUs to make that big
leap from water to steam.
The reverse is true. Steam to water releases that pined up whatever ~900+ BTUs back into (in this case) water around the condensing steam.

Don't ask me why all those EXTRA BTUs are required or released.
That's just the way it works, water likes being special in many ways.

Those extra BTUs were heated by the fire but are cooled by the surroundings and the water. the sudden expansion is bam there.. the sudden condensation is bam there but with all the released BTUs expanded the water around the condensing steam which takes longer to release that heat and contract.

Simple answer is the heating by fire is faster than the cooling by water.. (I just totally made that answer up because I don't know how they really work) it really isn't that simple...If you bought that,
I'm selling round-trip tickets to the moon, on SALE!!

The condensing steam in the pop-pop sucks water back into the pipe.

Wrap your head around this one... if some steam condenses and there
is only steam around to absorb the released BTUs that surrounding steam gets hotter, hotter steam means an increase psi.. So for example, if you
sprayed water onto the outside of your boiler it would cause a sudden increase in psi to happen, don't do it. If your psi is rising too fast, venting
steam could cause a run-away psi event. Why? for a different reason
than the first. lowering the psi in the boiler by venting will allow the
pressurized water to turn into steam. Steam is a nasty thing to deal with.
(I think I got the above examples right, or I'm wrong again)

I'm really curious about here? It would seem to me that more energy is provided in the expansion mode than in the condensing mode, but is that true?

No same energy both ways. Yeah, I know what it seems like.
The total net effect in both directions happen at different rates of speed, sorta, I'm guessing again. !BS warning! It takes longer to get rid of all the heat than it does to input the heat.

The steam jet device we wish to create does not use the expansion force
of water to steam like the pop-pop.
Understanding the pop-pop would be good, but

The steam jet device uses initially the pushing of steam via psi
into the water and then uses the condensation of steam.

This moves the water through the water tube. How? That is a bit complex.
the net force of movement through the water tube is rearwards from
inlet to outlet which gets compounded by the condensation of steam.
The stream of steam is injected rearwards, but
some of the magic, net force rearwards, is caused by the hump/bump marked #2 in the this image

What does that bump do? see Coandă effect
on fluids includes gases. It's creating a vortex in the water tube of steam.

I was trying to avoid talking about vortexes. Someone might say I'm bias
about vortexes and that would be just silly talk.
In fact, I really hope we test the device without the bump first.
It probably will not work without the bump/ridge.

I'm doing a horrible job explaining what it does do.
I can explain what it does not do better, I think.
Maybe Allcanadian can help explain.

We need steam and pressure.
Ah, but that's the problem, lack of steam.
Just build it and the water should move. If not, then we'll have a tons
of time to ask and answer questions then...

Totally valid and very well thought out, now can you tell me the answer so I can get some sleep, please?
Hang on, the water moves in the put, put... I mean the pop-pop motor, so where does that take us?

I don't know to tell you. I understand your life will never be the same and I'm sorry it had to end this way.

I'd rather have a working device and not know how it works
than not have a working device and know how it works.
Maybe in building it we shall come to understand it better.
The pop-pop motor is not the road that needs to be traveled.

One thought I had was to use the Venturi effect by injecting
water into the water tube to make up for lack of steam psi.
This would suck the steam into the water tube faster than
it would normally get into the water tube.. but we still
would need a bit of psi else it would be creating a vacuum
on the steam line?!?! This isn't an end solution for lack of steam
but a workaround until greater pressures are obtained to test with.

Randy

[byjoveoldchap]

I'd rather have a working device and not know how it works

Vortex said,

"I'd rather have a working device and not know how it works
than not have a working device and know how it works."

Been following your link and Allcanadians and spent the last 3 or more hours reading, reading and reading.

I'm probably off on a different tangent to you so will not bore you with details, but I'm still gathering bits here and there.

I think I'm going for a mini test setup that I can observe easily. The wps will generate too much steam and noise in the kitchen!

I'll find a coffee tin and solder something together and use push on plastic tube to swap ideas around quickly.

Very tired now, didn't get much sleep last night... someone had an idea that kept me awake for hours...

[byjoveoldchap]

How Do Pop Pop Boats Work?

oh jove,

I don't totally understand those pop-pop boats either, but but but
It moves by expansion of water into steam.
The water at 212 F degrees turns into steam at 212 F degree.
This transformation requires, ah, over ~900+ BTUs to make that big
leap from water to steam.
The reverse is true. Steam to water releases that pined up whatever ~900+ BTUs back into (in this case) water around the condensing steam.

Don't ask me why all those EXTRA BTUs are required or released.
That's just the way it works, water likes being special in many ways.

Those extra BTUs were heated by the fire but are cooled by the surroundings and the water. the sudden expansion is bam there.. the sudden condensation is bam there but with all the released BTUs expanded the water around the condensing steam which takes longer to release that heat and contract.

Simple answer is the heating by fire is faster than the cooling by water.. (I just totally made that answer up because I don't know how they really work) it really isn't that simple...If you bought that,
I'm selling round-trip tickets to the moon, on SALE!!

Randy

I'm happy now, I found an anwers to one of my nightmares.

* How Do Pop Pop Boats Work? *

After all these years this is still under discussion and study but here is how Steve thinks they work.

After filling the thrust tubes with water, a small candle or wick with olive oil for fuel is placed underneath the rear of the flash steam boiler. When the water droplets in the boiler flash to steam, the pressure created pushes the water out the ends of the tubes, which provides forward thrust to the boat.

As the steam cools and condenses it creates a vacuum, which draws water in for the next cycle. This happens in a quick resonant pulse, which can be seen in the ripples behind the boat. The thin brass stock on the top of the boiler flexes up and down providing an enhanced pulse and putt putt sound, which adds to the drama.

The forward pulse is much stronger than the opposite action of the water being drawn back into the tubes. This is best understood in considering that you can blow a candle out, but you cannot suck it out, as the volume of air comes into your mouth from a multidirectional path.

ahhhh peace at last

[byjoveoldchap]

Dr. Jeff Bindon, is a 'retired' South African engineer

oh jove,

Wrap your head around this one... if some steam condenses and there
is only steam around to absorb the released BTUs that surrounding steam gets hotter, hotter steam means an increase psi.. So for example, if you
sprayed water onto the outside of your boiler it would cause a sudden increase in psi to happen, don't do it. If your psi is rising too fast, venting
steam could cause a run-away psi event. Why? for a different reason
than the first. lowering the psi in the boiler by venting will allow the
pressurized water to turn into steam. Steam is a nasty thing to deal with.
(I think I got the above examples right, or I'm wrong again)

Randy

Randy, I have found an excellent article which has the most technical observation results I have seen yet on the simple pop-pop motor. I believe the content covers your description above as well. I think you'll find it very interesting.

Dr. Jeff Bindon, is a "retired" South African engineer and educator who is still working with his university to develop ingenious science/technology kits for young people.

Dr. Bindon turned his attention to putt putt boats and created a see-into engine with the use of clear overhead projector film, which withstands high temperature. Through the clear parts at the pipes and at the hottest part of the boiler you can see exactly what is going on inside the engine!

This is what interests me Randy, and I think it is the reason for the 'condensation-induced water hammer'? See what you think.
"The first surprising observation was the magnitude of the peak pressure inside the boiler"
.

[byjoveoldchap]

Bedini fan motor?

Vortex, did you ever get that motor running?

[Vortex]

Randy, I have found an excellent article
which has the most technical observation results I have seen yet on the
simple pop-pop motor. I believe the content covers your description
above as well. I think you'll find it very interesting

Yes, excellent Jove Very good information about steam and
how it relates to something real you can see instead of about steam in
general.

Seemingly very important was "with both tubes made
of silicone rubber, the engine would not work" (page 2, first column,
midway down). Prevented hot/cold transfer.? Importantly it
did/does effect how the engine functions and therefore had to effect the
processes observed and reported. (no this isn't like that quantum stuff,
watch it and it does something different)

" cessation of pulsing and subsequent burnout were
due to a completely dry boiler" Ah, ha. I surmised this would
happen.

"spurt of two or three tiny bubbles" Ah, Yes ..
I've seen this in my observations and thought "CURIOUS, it's making air
bubbles". My steam making has been via 10' x 1/4" copper tubing with a soda
bottle turned upside down as a water feed. Now and then air bubbles will
show up out of the tubing in the water bottle.

"While a larger flame does not enhance the pulse strength" .
Curious. Hotter isn't better. scale up is a problem?

"the loudest being at the end of the implosion"
The membrane makes noise during outward/inward movement
.. the louder sound is due to undirected water hammer and this is what
worries me. the noise, without some vortex action to direct the implosion
the water-hammer is in full effect?

"periodically on explosive downwards strokes of the
membrane. An unexpected result was no liquid was seen to emerge
from the pipes" Yes, this is the vacuum effect we seek. As
the membrane normally fixes downward it pushes, but the vacuum
absorbed the force of the downward membrane and nothing moved.

"2nd law of Thermodynamics, the difference between
the heat supplied and the work produced must be rejected as waste
heat." A very high percentage of the heat ends up in the
water. This is what is so great about the water jet device. High steam to
work ratio. Not like a steam engine or turbine that ends up with large
amounts of heat unused, leftover steam or waste steam.

"Design has been intuitive with generous proportions of
luck and persistent trial and error. ... with trepidation because no
guarantee can be provided that they will work." This engine is
fragile. Redesign to extracting work other than what it already does is
issue and there's the dry boiler to think about. Duplication is key. Trial
and error is expected but ...

This document brings forth information that needs to be known.
This document indirectly states louder sound in the pop-pop is due to
water-hammer. The movement is towards the boiler during the collapse
which is confined and closed. Water hammer effect is reduced to some
degree because of the air pockets in the boiler.

A cavitation bubble is probably exactly the same as a steam
bubble during collapse. Looking at sound created by a cavitation bubble.
A pistol shrimp creates a cavitation bubble that collapses from all
directions and makes a loud noise. The cavitation bubbles created
by an outboard motor propeller or those created in a stream or river do
not make as loud a noise because those bubbles are in a vortex which
does not allow the collapse to be equal from all directions.

Randy

[Vortex]

It seems I have STEAM

Using only copper tubing isn't going to provide the pressure
required, at least not in the way I've been trying to do it. It has provided
insight though.

I've purchased a disposable propane tank, the green short fat one, $2.95.
Traded that tank for an almost empty one my brother had.
Bought an adapter for the tank to 1/4" and drained the propane from the tank.
Removed the inside piece on the adapter that pushes on the valve in the
tank neck. I cut the point off a nail and started in hammering it into the
neck to knock out the valve. Wrong move, I bent in the entire top of the tank.
The tank caved in.
Next I drilled out the valve and the plastic sleeve holding the valve in
the neck. There are 2 kinds of 1/4" fitting sizes. Fitting to fitting size and
those for 1/4" attaching to copper tubing. When you look at them you'll see what I
mean if you don't know already or ask someone.
It gets a bit expense. Tank, adapter $10, 3 female fitting tee was $5
alone, fittings, psi gauge $10, ball-valve $5.
I hooked up everything including the 10 feet of copper tubing.
Tee, gauge, ball valve at the far end.
Added 9 ml of water using an medicine dropper into the tank and
fired up the woodgas stove. Yes I have a healthy respect for steam I do
not wish to learn my lessons through trips to the hospital. Plus I was going
to be able to turn OFF my heat very easily.
Got to 60 psi about three times before I let off the pressure. I still had water
in the tubing from previous testing it's coiled and I didn't try to get that water out.
Second time I released the pressure it dropped to zero but
as soon as I closed the ball valve it jumped to 20 psi. The final time I
release the pressure lots of water came out. I'm sure I still have water
trapped in the tubing yet still.

NOTE: boy-howdy that ball valve and tubing got very hot... I got burned
pretty good on the ball valve. I was worrying about that stuff being
hot to allow the steam to flow, the steam will take care of it for you.

This is dangerous stuff!
I have not tried to test the build in pressure
release valve because my top caved in and it could have been damaged.
If you do this, Please do be scared! I'm BSing you here. Do not start
out with a lot of water in your tank. LEARN how it responses to releasing
the pressure and don't let the pressure rise very high.
DO NOT WALK away from this while it is being heated. Pressure can
rise from zero to 60 in less than one minute if the tank is hot.

Next I need to figure out how I'm going to continue and what my
setup will look like, now that I have a way to create my steam.
I have to determine how to keep it as dry as possible.
If there is any flexible tubing that might handle the heat or not.
Note: increases in size beyond the copper tubing will cause a pressure
drop and can be locations for condensation.
I'm going to have to go to propane heating because I have to be able
to turn off the heat.

and .. no Jove, I didn't get either of my fans working.
I guess I quit too soon, but this project has bigger potential.

Being careful
Randy

[byjoveoldchap]

See How Incredibly Powerful COLD Water-Hammer Really Is.

Yes, excellent Jove Very good information about steam and how it relates to something real you can see instead of about steam in general.

This engine is fragile. Redesign to extracting work other than what it already does is issue

A cavitation bubble is probably exactly the same as a steam
bubble during collapse. Looking at sound created by a cavitation bubble.
A pistol shrimp creates a cavitation bubble that collapses from all
directions and makes a loud noise. The cavitation bubbles created
by an outboard motor propeller or those created in a stream or river do
not make as loud a noise because those bubbles are in a vortex which
does not allow the collapse to be equal from all directions.

Randy

Good, I'm glad to hear you found some value in there Randy. I was worried that you may have concidered this toy boat idea too childish to be worthy of reading. Personally I just want to understand the mechanics of what is really happening, then I can think of ways to test ideas and develop something from those results.

I'll keep this short as I agree with most of your thoughts here and I will just add what I think you may have missed, or want to consider.

I have a much better understanding of the simple steam boat action now and I have also watched some very enlightening videos.

ref the silicon tube
Yes, it was acting as an insulator.
[Useful to connect other pipes and ideas with if kept short though.]

I can understand why the extra heat makes no difference. I believe the performance is limited, or will only oscillate at a frequency dependent on the construction and size. More heat cannot speed oscillation actions, but a larger design would require more heat.

I believe the air is forced out of the water probably by the condensation/water hammer action, (see video1). If there were no air-cushion, I would think the motor would stop very quickly [burn out], or not even run at all.

Did you notice he spoke about similarities to a piston engine? What he didn't confirm but I believe is absolutely true, is that once the motor is running the cycling-water never leaves the tube. It simply moves backward and forward. It is never replaced and never lost. The propulsion comes only from a tiny amount of outside water drawn in with the condensation action and then pushed back out again with steam expansion. If two glass pipette tubes were placed at the longest straight section with silicon tubing, and a coloured dye were used to prefill the motor, I bet you would see the evidence of that and it would also illustrate the extent of mixing [if any] with outside water.

This would also explain how the motor 'flashes' the water into steam so easily and quickly. It is not cold outside water that is being used, it is simply the previoud steam which has barely condensed and therefore is still at a very high temperature. In other words this end section of the water slug, is continually turned into steam and condensed back again almost immediately and continuosly, until the fuel runs out or burn out occurs.

I had though of an idea to use only a pushing action from the rear tubes and eliminate the sucking action that opposes the forward motion, to improve the speed. But now I understand the above, I know it cannot work. These are indeed simple steam motors, but they are fragile as you say, yet incredibly clever. So they are not going to be easy to alter or improve!

I'd like you to watch a couple of videos and see how incredibly powerful COLD water-hammer really is.

WARNING - do NOT watch these if you have a dicky ticker...!!! - but turn the volume UP if you don't.

video 1 watch for the bubbles
video 2 be sure to watch to the end

Then Randy, I'd like you to consider YOUR force being 10-100 times greater than these.

By Jove!

[byjoveoldchap]

Using only copper tubing isn't going to provide the pressure
required, at least not in the way I've been trying to do it. It has provided
insight though.

Randy

Randy, I'm quite lost here. In UK our systems are likely to be quite different to yours. Can you give web links to the items you refer to or better still a photo so I can visualise your complete system?

eg What gas cylinder are you using, where is the pressure gauge/release valve, what is your wood-gas stove?

Without an understanding of exactly what you are using, I cannot offer any suggestions and will not be able to follow any changes you make. I haven't built anything yet, been busy and cannot locate all the items I need. Will keep looking.

[Toerch]

Hi All,

First time posting here. II have been lurking for quite a while and am very happy and excited to be a new member. I've really enjoyed everyone's posts (and hard work!) on this site. You guys are doing great things and I'm learning a lot

Back to the subject at hand, I did some research on engines such as these several years back...(in fact, it was the Putt-Putt that got me wondering).

This thing is nothing more than an underwater version of a pulse jet; or more specifically a "valveless" pulsejet . These are the engines used in the Nazi's V1 "Buzz Bombs" that terrorized England during WWII.

A ton of great info on both the history and design (including downloadable blueprints and a design calcs) can be found at Home made jet & pulsejet engine

The "valveless" link at the top of the page gives a a great overview of the engine; check out Tesla's non-mechanical "valvular conduit" about 1/3 of the way down. It seems he was also working on pulsating combustion at one time. It's amazing how that guy keeps popping up

There are also many other cool docs for the more scientifically-minded with loads-o-calculus, including one by a Swedish electronic engineer who describes how it works w/ many electronic analogies. In fact, after looking around some more, I noticed that (the underwater one) is almost an exact copy of a Gluhareff Pressure JetGluhareff Pressure Jet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(sites w/plans at botton of page)

A flash steam heater coil would be a perfect swap for the Gluhareff's fuel preheater coil

I have no idea how the designers of this underwater engine could ever hope to get a patent on it, and as far the "secret" they alluded to on how it works, you guys pretty much hit it on the head; it's resonance. The engine is an resonant oscillator, just like a pipe organ, so the whole design needs to "tuned" to the resonant freq, which is nothing more than the speed of sound of the medium times resonant node (integer..1,2, etc) divided by 2 times the length. (there is a more precise way with diameter of open ends, etc, but you get the idea...).

It seems to me that you could just take one of the above designs, plug in the numbers for the speed of sound in water and come up with something pretty quick. The pressure should be similar (or not? lower temp but higher density? Any ideas? Just thinking about the math makes my head hurt).

However, it seems that the simplicity is also what makes the design so difficult. Without valves to control flow, the resonant shape has to be perfect; these things "breath"! Air is taken by the venturi effect, and is compressed in the chamber to add power to the pulse wave (just like in a jet engine) for the "exhale" of the power pulse (does that make sense?). It also seems that with more speed, you'd get an additional ramjet compression effect from the front intake?

Anyway, hope this helped and you find the above interesting reading.

Cheers all and have a great night/morning

Tom

[byjoveoldchap]

Valveless Pulse-Jets

Hi All,

First time posting here. II have been lurking for quite a while and am very happy and excited to be a new member. I've really enjoyed everyone's posts (and hard work!) on this site. You guys are doing great things and I'm learning a lot

Back to the subject at hand, I did some research on engines such as these several years back...(in fact, it was the Putt-Putt that got me wondering).

This thing is nothing more than an underwater version of a pulse jet; or more specifically a "valveless" pulsejet . These are the engines used in the Nazi's V1 "Buzz Bombs" that terrorized England during WWII.

A ton of great info on both the history and design (including downloadable blueprints and a design calcs) can be found at Home made jet & pulsejet engine

The "valveless" link at the top of the page gives a a great overview of the engine; check out Tesla's non-mechanical "valvular conduit" about 1/3 of the way down. It seems he was also working on pulsating combustion at one time. It's amazing how that guy keeps popping up

There are also many other cool docs for the more scientifically-minded with loads-o-calculus, including one by a Swedish electronic engineer who describes how it works w/ many electronic analogies. In fact, after looking around some more, I noticed that (the underwater one) is almost an exact copy of a Gluhareff Pressure JetGluhareff Pressure Jet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(sites w/plans at botton of page)

A flash steam heater coil would be a perfect swap for the Gluhareff's fuel preheater coil

I have no idea how the designers of this underwater engine could ever hope to get a patent on it, and as far the "secret" they alluded to on how it works, you guys pretty much hit it on the head; it's resonance. The engine is an resonant oscillator, just like a pipe organ, so the whole design needs to "tuned" to the resonant freq, which is nothing more than the speed of sound of the medium times resonant node (integer..1,2, etc) divided by 2 times the length. (there is a more precise way with diameter of open ends, etc, but you get the idea...).

It seems to me that you could just take one of the above designs, plug in the numbers for the speed of sound in water and come up with something pretty quick. The pressure should be similar (or not? lower temp but higher density? Any ideas? Just thinking about the math makes my head hurt).

However, it seems that the simplicity is also what makes the design so difficult. Without valves to control flow, the resonant shape has to be perfect; these things "breath"! Air is taken by the venturi effect, and is compressed in the chamber to add power to the pulse wave (just like in a jet engine) for the "exhale" of the power pulse (does that make sense?). It also seems that with more speed, you'd get an additional ramjet compression effect from the front intake?

Anyway, hope this helped and you find the above interesting reading.

Cheers all and have a great night/morning

Tom

Toerch

Thankyou for joining in Tom and offering your opinions and helpful suggestions!

It's very rewarding to hear that a newcomer is interested enough to want to join in the discussions and share ideas and experiences, I hope that we can encourage others to do the same or at least excite them enough to experiment on their own.

I will read through your suggestions and see how it all adds to the understanding I have at the moment.
~~~

I watched a couple of videos on Viktor Schauberger yesterday and looked at some related ideas on U-Tube.

I saw an extremely simple video demonstration of the pulse-action at work and have provided a link below.

I would not recommend others trying this as it could easily explode, but to see and hear the operation is very interesting indeed. I saw this effect many years ago with a wood stove that I built and was fascinated as to how it worked.

"This is a meths fuelled Reynst pot running to destruction.
The 'puttering' noise is hot gasses being forced out of the top hole as the flame contracts and expands."

Pulse Jet in a bottle - Structural Integrity Failure

As Allcanadian pointed out, it is remarkable how all this fits in with electrical action and also I would assume Nature? It is like watching the pulsing/oscillating action of a coil of wire, expanding and collapsing.

Fascinating stuff.

~~~
Have been through all those links and I found it all very intersting indeed Toerch Thankyou!.
Uncanny how I found the link above before I had the chance to look into your suggestions. ::

I am amazed that a jet engine can be built so easily yet I can understand how it works and you are dead right with your suggestions. I can't wait to build one. It's a shame they can't be controlled to operate slower because the heat these things generate is incredible! I've never seen 'white HOT metal ' look so WHITE.

Now all I need to do is figure out how these jet pulsers can be used to push high volumes of water and also see if I can find other uses for them.