Condensation-Induced Water Hammer

[Vortex]

been busy

Yes, welcome Toerch.
Thank you for bringing this up, Jove had mentioned it
but I'm hard headed some times.

I've had to "work" as of late, no time to experiment...
I'll try to purchase more parts I need and make more steam soon.
Try to force some interaction with a flow of steam into water without
any "device".
I'm thinking I might have to go to 1/8" tubing to get good results
but am going to try the 1/4" I have first.

After reviewing the pulse jet,
I think I'm seeing how the original jet device works a little clearer.

Yes, "target" jet device could pulse, I guess, if you designed it to do so.
I don't think the original or the target device requires pulsing to work.
The "target" jet device does not have an explosive event like the
pulse-jet or the pop-pop jet.
It has a stream of steam that implodes. We have to think backwards some
what. I keep having to rethink it due to most references we have
in "modern" life deal with explosions, the destructive force.

Yes, we hope, the implosion is like the explosion in that it is suppose
to create motion and not a black hole vacuum,
The vortex action could be a key factor to make it work
or only a helping factor making it work better.

"Most" of it might be really this simple:
Bigger water intake equals more water mass moving towards the implosion
which means most of the force moves towards the outlet.
That's how the pulse jet pulses using the length and sizes of the two pipes.
But with the steam, it would move most of the force through the smaller pipe
not out the larger pipe?

It could be the dang thing does pulse, but so fast we will
never know it is pulsing.
Dang it Jove, you got me watching other "Jam Jar" pulse jets on youtube and
wondering to myself. .. Is this productive time well spent ..
maybe not, oh but it's cool

And that image was a !wow! , no moving parts,
one way check valve (wasn't it a one way check valve?)
But again, something I'm unsure I could every recreate, Dang.
I've often pondered how cheaply I could create a functional one way valve.


Randy

[Vortex]

Parts failure

I obtained the parts and propane stove to allow a steam into water
test, only to find out the safety release valve is open.
On the initial test I didn't notice it venting, so maybe it has rubber in it
and that got too hot and now will not seal.
Making steam, on the cheap, is a pain.

As I heated the tank, air bubbles (expanding air) vented into the water
which isn't good .. because my ball valve was closed.
The ball valve isn't failing badly, I guess, because I was able to
reach 40 psi.

I saw large white colored (steam) bubbles upon opening the ball valve.

Those bubbles had to have some percentage of air in them, which
made it easier to get the steam into the water.

Air mixed in steam is bad for using steam to extract work mechanically,
but the jet device isn't mechanically extracting work.
Quote: ".. under certain conditions as little as 1/2 of 1% by volume of air in
steam can reduce heat transfer efficiency by 50%"

Heat transfer efficiency is a factor to insure total condensation but at
this stage in the testing I would probably be helpful due to lower psi
and steam flows could be used during experiments and observations.

If the pressure is zero, as steam contacts the water it oscillates / pulses.
Yes, oscillating occurs.. like the pulse jet on a very small scale.
The action is very small in my test, but it's there. Yep Yep you guys were
correct. You put your finger in the water and can feel the
pulsing.

In the early days they tried to use a pulse jet to run a turbine but
turbines do not work well with pulses.
A water wheel or whirlpool might work ok with pulsing water though?

Where can I get some Teflon to cut a custom washer for the tank to replace
the rubber washer, for should fail also, as testing continues.
I guess I'll have to hunt down some High Temperature Resistant Silicone.
I have to get some JB Weld and plug up the safety valve since it is leaking.

Good intro steam read.

This would be a easier if there someone that already had a means to
create steam would join in. Imhotep's woman,**~Shiva~**, was very
helpful and sent out an invite to jommy99 to join us.
Of interest was his Steam Babington that was going to run by steam later
instead of compressed air. I didn't see what kind of water feed he was using.

[byjoveoldchap]

Francois Reynst Combustor ~ Swiss Jet Engineer

~Just a couple of quick thoughts Vortex.

make a sealing washer from leather. Use an old boot/shoe 'tongue'. Soak in oil and it will be supple and very effective.

You must remove water/air every time you start boiler. Steam will condense quickly in copper pipe until it is at working temperature, using insulation will help but you must allow steam to exit from pipe for some time to expel water and raise pipe temperature.

The jam-jar jet is an idea from Francois Reynst, but he never intended his combustor to be a jet engine!

"When Francois Reynst was a young boy he discovered that if you poked a hole in the lid of a glass jar, put a small amount of neat alcohol in the bottom, let the alcohol exapourate a little, and then light the top of the jar, flames shoot out of the top of the jar and then get sucked back into the jar again. Then flames get ejected out of the jar. And then get sucked back in again. And this cycle repeats until all the fuel is used up."

how to make one here

The steam pdf was good, but it is written by a company who sell the drainage valves etc., so they are justifying their products. I wouldn't worry about fractional percentage of water in steam, it is of no significance in our applications!

I have been intrigued with the various pulse-jets that Toerch pointed out [plus Allcanadians input] on their operations. My head is spinning with ideas. I am considering one of these to produce the steam required, plus excess heat fror heating air or water. The problem is still back to basics of using the steam to produce water power, but it is building into a complete system now and not just a water-jet.

The Babbington idea is another excellent source of heat that I am keeping in mind. The fuel pump can be a simple aquarium pump which raises the oil in a tube with bubbles.
Still no working boiler yet, will try to locate parts today.

[Vortex]

make a sealing washer from leather. Use an old boot/shoe 'tongue'. Soak in oil and it will be supple and very effective.

Yes, Great Idea, that should last some time and/or be replaceable as
it wears out. I have some leather I obtained 6 years ago.. I'm a packrat.
That will be the 1st thing I'll try when the rubber gasket does fail.

You must remove water/air every time you start boiler. Steam will condense quickly in copper pipe until it is at working temperature, using insulation will help but you must allow steam to exit from pipe for some time to expel water and raise pipe temperature.

Upon startup a lot of the air expands out of the tank. Yes, the condensing
occurs, but that is how the whole system (my yahooed steam creation rigged up system) heats up. Insulation isn't a big issue at all, yet. Big ISSUE is to make sure all your tubing is sloped and not running horizontally or has dips for condensation to collect and block the tubing, a slug of water.

The steam pdf was good, but it is written by a company who sell the drainage valves etc., so they are justifying their products. I wouldn't worry about fractional percentage of water in steam, it is of no significance in our applications!

Yes, at this time is does not matter much.
A full blown steam generator will need to follow most if not all
"normal" boiler rules/design that apply. This is stuff we, general no nothing
folk, are greatly ignorant about. Air trap, condensation trap, etc etc. as it
applies.

I have been intrigued with the various pulse-jets that Toerch pointed out [plus Allcanadians input] on their operations. My head is spinning with ideas. I am considering one of these to produce the steam required, plus excess heat fror heating air or water. The problem is still back to basics of using the steam to produce water power, but it is building into a complete system now and not just a water-jet.

I'm under the opinion that most people would never build a steam system or
friction steam generator if a steam engine or turbine was to be part of that
system because of many reasons. That's why this device is so very important. It opens the door for so many more people to make use of a steam system. The system can become as complex as one wishes, but can be extremely simple with this device.

The Babbington idea is another excellent source of heat that I am keeping in mind. The fuel pump can be a simple aquarium pump which raises the oil in a tube with bubbles.
Still no working boiler yet, will try to locate parts today.

Failures:
safety valve, JB weld to plug that up
ball valve leaks some.
Pressure gauge has stopped working. It was just an air gauge, I purchase the cheapest one I could get.

My steam is created via a disposable propane tank, short green one.
There's a fitting that connect to that tank with a 1/4" male thread.
I broke down and purchasee an other propane tank and camp stove
I'll get a picture up soon to show what I'm using. I don't
have a functional digital camera right now.

What I'm using is working just fine for what is required at this point in time
for experiments. You don't believe one has to go to extremes to get the fundamental
experiments done. I'm seeing some good results with no pressure steam and/or I close
my ball valve for about 10 seconds (psi gauge isn't working)
I had obtained 60 psi with my setup before the gauge stopped working using
my woodgas stove. I chicken out going any higher than that, but we
should not need higher than that to fully develop a functional device.

Straight tube test works! I tried a 4" pvc tube with the
1/4" copper tubing stuck into a hole in the top of pvc about 1/2" back
from one end. The steam pushes water out the end as I had hoped it would.
Path of least resistance is all I can claim is making that work.
I have no idea how it works, it just does and I'm moving onward.
When it stops working or can not be improved upon any more, then
at that time, how it works would matter more than it does today.
For example: not knowing the physics about how a siphon works does not
prevent you from getting a hose and using it correctly to create a siphon.

I have yet to find 1/8" copper tubing, I've not looked very hard yet.
I'll probably just restrict the 1/4" hole by sticking something in it to
narrow the output steam of steam.
Turning up the burner on the stove caused steam to exit the pvc tube
thus already design changes are required.

I'm curious how far the design changes can be taken before more pressure
is required to observe differences in those changes.
Except for the sucking in of air, which I think might be much later design change. I'm unclear what exactly mixing in air does. I expect it might ease
the mixing. Instead of larger bubbles of steam it would allow smaller ones to mix into the flow of water. If the air is left out until later, then what the air is doing might reveal itself then.

Ok, I've been holding back. I have not posted the other device the makers
of original device we hope to duplicate. It uses 50% more psi than the original device. It gives another frame of reference as to the forces/power of steam we might be dealing with.

Now remember, not everything might be as it seems. There could be some bit of disinformation going on here to distract from duplication of the devices.

I'm hopeful at this point. No dead ends, Only Hurdles and Hoops so far.

pvc temperature ratings pvc is cheap material to prototype with until it melts/deforms. Hoping the water keeps it cool enough during low pressure development. Knowing at what point pvc starts to fail is something we
should find out. It might prove usable in lower temperature and pressure system increasing the flexibility of system, simple and cheap with option
to scale up to higher pressure and temperature.

Trying to determine what my next move should be
Randy.

[byjoveoldchap]

Straight tube test works!

Straight tube test works! I tried a 4" pvc tube with the
1/4" copper tubing stuck into a hole in the top of pvc about 1/2" back
from one end. The steam pushes water out the end as I had hoped it would.
Path of least resistance is all I can claim is making that work.

I have yet to find 1/8" copper tubing, I've not looked very hard yet.
I'll probably just restrict the 1/4" hole by sticking something in it to
narrow the output steam of steam.
Turning up the burner on the stove caused steam to exit the pvc tube
thus already design changes are required.

I'm curious how far the design changes can be taken before more pressure
is required to observe differences in those changes.
Except for the sucking in of air, which I think might be much later design change. I'm unclear what exactly mixing in air does.

Ok, I've been holding back. I have not posted the other device the makers
of original device we hope to duplicate. It uses 50% more psi than the original device. It gives another frame of reference as to the forces/power of steam we might be dealing with.

I'm hopeful at this point. No dead ends, Only Hurdles and Hoops so far.

pvc temperature ratings pvc is cheap material to prototype with until it melts/deforms. Hoping the water keeps it cool enough during low pressure development. Knowing at what point pvc starts to fail is something we
should find out. It might prove usable in lower temperature and pressure system increasing the flexibility of system, simple and cheap with option
to scale up to higher pressure and temperature.

Trying to determine what my next move should be
Randy.

Straight tube test works!
Well done!

The steam pushes water out the end as I had hoped it would.
which end, the end nearest the steam input? and was the 4" tube horizontal and completely under water?

I have yet to find 1/8" copper tubing
#you will find model makers use it for steam boilers etc., but that will only reduce the volume of steam and increase the pressure a little?

I'm unclear what exactly mixing in air does.
Me too! and it is not reqd in the water spray mist model you mention next.

Ok, I've been holding back.

Yes, I saw that in operation when we first started here. Supposedly only using the shockwaves to shatter/fragment the water into fine droplets. Has a very good reach and they are using low water volume with steam around 6 bar. Must find out what that is in pounds, shillings and pence... in other words, psi. What a terrific idea for a sprinkler system! hmm... wonder if it would lift a Rocket off the ground?

pvc is cheap material to prototype with until it melts/deforms.
If you keep it submerged or surrounded with water, it will not be a problem. Spraying steam directly into pvc will soften it eventually, so you can reshape the pvc that way if required.


Trying to determine what my next move should be

Here's what I would want to do Vortex.
Place a jam jar or glass upside down in a bowl full of water in such a way that the glass is also full of water. Allow steam to release under the glass and see what happens. ~ Does the water get pushed out of the glass by the steam pressure? Are there any oscillations/vibrations taking place? Any unusual observations?

Same again, but with the glass full of air. ~ Does the steam condense and create a vacuum which pulls the water into the glass, or does the steam pressure force air out of glass and into water? - Any unusual observations?

I would also use a smaller pvc tube, say 32 or 40mm and drill hole at centre to admit steam. Keeping tube horizontal under water, I would observe what happens?

Then I would blank off one end and try again. This would be similar to a Reynst combustor and I would observe what happens? ~ My thoughts are that changing the hole aperture at the one open end, may create the self oscillation effect?

Happy experimenting

[Vortex]

[QUOTE=byjoveoldchap;35168]Straight tube test works!
Well done!

#you will find model makers use it for steam boilers etc., but that will only reduce the volume of steam and increase the pressure a little?

See Table so view flow.
Decrease flow will keep the pressure higher longer for testing in a small
steam system. 1/8" tube at 5 psi will vent 7.5 LBS per Hour of steam...
That's a lot of steam, at least for my little tank???
2 mins to vent 0.25 lbs of steam.
I do not know if I have enough heat to create any pressure steam or
what pressure steam I can expect for what duration of time yet.
My psi gauge seems to be not working, grumble. I'm going to put
off getting another one for a little while ...



Place a jam jar or glass upside down in a bowl full of water in such a way that the glass is also full of water.

Would it not do the same thing it does with the tube stuck in the water, just
not as much so due to the steam will have to work against a higher water
column to exit the tubing.

Steam will exit the tube, displace the water, steam will condense, water will
replace the space the steam had taken up. It will oscillate in and out of the
jar, steam in, water out, steam collapses, water in.
It's easy for me to *assume* I know what will happen
.. before seeing it I was not sure what I would observe.
As the steam bubble coming out of the tube collapses it seems that the
collapse (condensation) continues up the copper steam tube some ..
This is how the oscillation is happening? low pressure.
Flow of steam without oscillation would require higher psi that would keep water out of the tubing before it had a chance to condense. Collapse would
occur away from the tubing?


Same again, but with the glass full of air. ~ Does the steam condense and create a vacuum which pulls the water into the glass, or does the steam pressure force air out of glass and into water? - Any unusual observations?

This is already a known if the jar was some how filled with steam that was
not condensing but then comes into contact with water, the jar would fill
with water. This is how a vertical steam pipe can get FILLED with water
due to condensate in a horizontal pipe filling up below the vertical pipe.
I have a document about this some where with images that explain how
it happens.

With air, a little air would be displaced, at first, then afterwards it would
just oscillate the water up and down in the jar a little.


I would also use a smaller pvc tube, say 32 or 40mm and drill hole at centre to admit steam. Keeping tube horizontal under water, I would observe what happens?
I'm using 1/2" pvc, it is horizontal .. barely underwater. Barely pushing water.
Next is try to create a smaller tube inside that pvc to release the steam 360 degrees around the inside instead of just out the 1/4" copper tubing.
Hey, the water I've seen moving is really small ok.
We have no numbers, lbs of steam, flow of water, etc . No measurements
so everything is very vague.

Please explain how we could use oscillation. It baffles me how.
I do not see how it is useful to us in the extraction of work from water.
That's why I do not see oscillation as a wanted effect.

puzzled
Randy

[byjoveoldchap]

[QUOTE=Vortex;35178]

Decrease flow will keep the pressure higher longer for testing in a small
steam system. 1/8" tube at 5 psi will vent 7.5 LBS per Hour of steam...
That's a lot of steam, at least for my little tank???

My psi gauge seems to be not working, grumble. I'm going to put
off getting another one for a little while ...

With air, a little air would be displaced, at first, then afterwards it would
just oscillate the water up and down in the jar a little.

I'm using 1/2" pvc, it is horizontal .. barely underwater. Barely pushing water.
Next is try to create a smaller tube inside that pvc to release the steam 360 degrees around the inside

Please explain how we could use oscillation. It baffles me how.
I do not see how it is useful to us in the extraction of work from water.
That's why I do not see oscillation as a wanted effect.

puzzled
Randy

Decrease flow will keep the pressure higher longer
okay but you do not need 12 feet of pipe, 2 or 3 inches will be enough, save your money.

My psi gauge seems to be not working, grumble. I'm going to put
off getting another one for a little while ...
good, the relief valve is vital, the gauge isn't.


I'm using 1/2" pvc, it is horizontal ..
maybe I misread, but I thought you said you were using 4 and a half inch tube!

Straight tube test works! I tried a 4" pvc tube with the
1/4" copper tubing stuck into a hole in the top of pvc about 1/2" back
from one end.
Okay, get some 3/4" pvc and place the 1/2" internally. Then decide how you can get the steam into the gap between. Maybe an 'O' ring would do? ~I would shorten the tubes to say 6" for the 3/4" tube and 3 or 4" for the 1/2"?

That setup should enable you to see some results. Consider also, using a 3/4" Tee-piece with short tubes either side as I first suggested, and the 1/2" pipe running inside but only just going past the the Tee vertical on one side. You can use putty, plasticine or silicon to seal the gap between the two pipes, but this will introduce the steam in a circular motion around the 1/2" pipe before hitting the cold water and condensing.

Please explain how we could use oscillation. It baffles me how.
I do not see how it is useful to us in the extraction of work from water.
That's why I do not see oscillation as a wanted effect.
~I know Vortex, it is for my interest really. I feel there has to be a way to use the pulsing action for work, but as I said, I'm looking at a complete system. How I can use the oscillations is a mystery to me so far, but I'm looking at all angles.

Another thought, when you have an idea how you can assemble the two pipes as above, also think how and where you can introduce air as well. Just blowing down a tube while the unit operates should be enough to observe and maybe understand what the air really does?

I can only assume that it helps create many more voids in the water, so that the condensation effect has a far greater area to collapse and thus pulls more water in to replace the spaces/bubbles in the mixed water.

Thinking more about this Vortex, how can the condensing steam collapse anything without these air bubbles...???

I also read a small description of the water-jet which I had missed or wasn't mentioned before...
When used for boats, the engine works by injecting steam through a rear-facing, ring-shaped nozzle into a cylindrical chamber. As the steam emerges at three times the speed of sound, it rapidly condenses, generating a shock wave that pulls in water through an intake and expels it from the rear, generating thrust

three times the speed of sound ???
...from what I read ref pulse jets, I'm sure the pulsing cannot be more than the speed of sound. Disinfo or the reason why the water jet is so powerful?

I also found another strange, yet similar item, see image

[Vortex]

Too tough a nut

I have tried a first step at circular release of steam in the device.
I took a smaller diameter tube with electric tape wrapped on both ends
with the middle void of tape. In the middle I made holes with a needle.
This tube was stuff into the pvc pipe so that the steam tube lined up
with the middle of the smaller tube inside it.
It did not seem to produce anything different than just the steam
tube stuck into the device.

Thinking of trying to get better movement of water from a "tube" shape
device leads me to conclude this is too difficult to duplicate.

Allcanadian had the answer or at least a direction to go with the steam fish shape.
I was initially distracted due to most of Schaubergers designs are
vortex inducing ram's horns shapes or wavy and very difficult to reproduce.

This shape, at least in a flat configuration, would be easier to duplicate
and could be created out of clear material to allow observation.

Looking at the steamfish image, make it only 1/8" in high.
How to make a steamfish as a tube (round in shape) is beyond my knowledge
but making it flat is something I or others can do.
This steamfish design should be fully functional with compressed air and
work almost the same as with steam. Making testing and prototyping easier.

The steamfish design has the features of original jet device has which moves
the water backwards in a device. The backwards injection of the steam and
the coanda effect. I only now, after coming to a dead end with the original
device duplication , did I see what Allcanadian had meant
in his posting about it. I also originally thought I would see a better
movement of water towards the outlet of the device, this does not
seem to be happening as well as I expected. Observation seems to be
showing a pulse jet action with some movement out the inlet end of the device.

I am going to create a prototype of the steamfish design.
I am now thinking what materials I could use and how to create it.

Randy

[byjoveoldchap]

I took a smaller diameter tube with electric tape wrapped on both ends
with the middle void of tape. In the middle I made holes with a needle.
This tube was stuff into the pvc pipe so that the steam tube lined up
with the middle of the smaller tube inside it.
It did not seem to produce anything different than just the steam
tube stuck into the device.

Thinking of trying to get better movement of water from a "tube" shape
device leads me to conclude this is too difficult to duplicate.

Randy

I took a smaller diameter tube with electric tape wrapped on both ends with the middle void of tape.

I think you have missed the point. Maybe this wasn't clear enough?

Get some 3/4" pvc and place the 1/2" internally. Then decide how you can get the steam into the gap between. Maybe an 'O' ring would do? ~I would shorten the tubes to say 6" for the 3/4" tube and 3 or 4" for the 1/2"?

That setup should enable you to see some results. Consider also, using a 3/4" Tee-piece with short tubes either side as I first suggested, and the 1/2" pipe running inside but only just going past the the Tee vertical on one side. You can use putty, plasticine or silicon to seal the gap between the two pipes, but this will introduce the steam in a circular motion around the 1/2" pipe before hitting the cold water and condensing.

I have drawn a quick illustration of what I mean, sorry it's so poor, but you should understand that the tape which you stuck on each end is restricting the action. It needs to be on one side of the steam inlet only, coloured green in this example. This leaves a larger area on the right hand side for the collapse and thus should pull water through.

Thats how I see it working anyway.

I have just added another diagram to illustrate how I think a simple water-jet could be built using a 'solvent-type' 3/4" pvc swept Tee and a short section of 1/2" pvc tube. This would be very basic to test the idea, then you can add the coanda effect or angle the tubes to improve the mixing and flow. This would be negligible cost to test the theory!

[Vortex]

I have drawn a quick illustration of what I mean, sorry it's so poor, but you should understand that the tape which you stuck on each end is restricting the action. It needs to be on one side of the steam inlet only, coloured green in this example. This leaves a larger area on the right hand side for the collapse and thus should pull water through.

Yes, that looks good. I didn't try that.
I got to thinking there has to be an easier way to create the shapes/features needed to produce the effects wanted. Tubes are hard to work with and
get the wanted features.
I'd try using clear plastic tubing until it fails to function during testing.
Hot glue seems to be working fine and one can disassemble something created using hot glue.
I'm going flat, non-tubing, and that is working (it seems to be)
The water will keep it cool enough during low pressure / short duration testing allowing a feeling of understanding of things that are too hard to know otherwise.
It's important to observe and display to others potential working designs in action to remove some unknowns and need for equations and complex gas/water/steam etc. know-how about flows, etc. It's like impossible to sit down with the math, equations, laws and figure out what would work.
This leaves us depending upon observation almost totally.

I have just added another diagram to illustrate how I think a simple water-jet could be built using a 'solvent-type' 3/4" pvc swept Tee and a short section of 1/2" pvc tube. This would be very basic to test the idea, then you can add the coanda effect or angle the tubes to improve the mixing and flow. This would be negligible cost to test the theory!

yes again, that's good. It is doable but I believe, that design requires more pressure to get it functioning at 360 degrees around the tube instead of only at the top of the top where the steam enters the device.
Clear tubes would allow actions to be viewed and confirm that of which I'm speaking about or dispute it.
The steamfish design isn't limited by standard size / off the shelve tube sizes. it could be easier to scale down and up in size.
Limitations on sizing are not as great.
You do not have the required 360 degree mixing to deal with requiring higher pressures. You can scale it down to match your steam flow, easier.


I am going to dig up my cam and get something posted.
Show the steam maker, 1st, 2nd and fish devices I've observed.
Seeing is much better than trying to use words to explain it all.

...
Randy

[byjoveoldchap]

Observation and commonsense will achieve results THAT ARE IMPOSSIBLE !

It's like impossible to sit down with the math, equations, laws and figure out what would work. This leaves us depending upon observation almost totally.
...
Randy

Exactly Randy!

That is why I would never waste my time or effort relying on any of that nonsense, to design an idea!

The world is full of 'highly intelligent'? people who can rattle out formula's and quote theory's to prove something cannot possibly work. I know quite a few of them myself.

If these people would only use their commonsense and the knowledge they have gained to find out HOW an idea COULD work,we would all be living in a far better world than we are today. (shades of Kyosaki there again Allcanadian?).

These supposedly clever? people, who consider themselves to have a higher intelligence than 'common' people, are the one's who tried to destroy the ideas from Schauberger, Reich, Tesla and every other original thinker who tried to help mankind and improve our understanding of Nature!

Well, I think I've said enough about my thoughts on that subject, but hopefully it might encourage other ordinary people who have an idea, to ignore the clever losers who never try and just go and do it and prove it to yourself...!!!

Schauberger learned all he knew simply by observing Nature, and not by sitting in a class room learning maths and complex formula's.

Observation and commonsense will achieve results THAT ARE IMPOSSIBLE!

ByJove!

[Vortex]

Images, sorry it took so long

1st test device
2st test device
1st Steam Fish Top View
1st Steam Fish Bottom View
1st Steam Fish Side View
Steam Maker 01
Steam Maker 02
Steam Maker 03
All these images where taken with a web cam and they are not very good.
I hope I can get a video up showing the 1st Steamfish design.
Edited this msg, added this video of the steamfish. This is a really bad video, but ...
Any movement you see in the steamfish is steam, the water isn't visible in the video. I'll try another video in daylight.

The idea behind the this 1st steamfish design was to just make one and
observe what happened. I was not trying to get it "right", just make
something to test with.

Yep it's crude stuff, but why spend time making anything
else if it has not proven itself to be worth extra effort.

The plywood has looked like a great LANDING ZONE to the cats
and they have knocked it over a couple of times
and I just hope the stay off it during experiments!!!

Randy

[byjoveoldchap]

All these images where taken with a web cam and they are not very good.
I hope I can get a video up showing the 1st Steamfish design.

The idea behind the this 1st steamfish design was to just make one and
observe what happened. I was not trying to get it "right", just make
something to test with.

Randy

Excellent Randy, they were very helpful especially the close ups of the fish design and construction.

Hey, I hope you removed all the gas from that cylinder before you heated it. ~ You must have nerves of steel, and yet you're the one who's worried about steam???

I do like the steamfish idea and can see that it does have great possibilities.

Here's a thought that might help with construction. Can you get a length of silicon tube to use for the actual design and shape of the fish instead of wire? By using the right size, it will compress between the perspex? and seal itself. If so, you can tack the tube in position and then you only need to hot glue the outside edges. That would enable faster gluing and easier re-shaping of tube. You may even be able to alter the contour by inserting a rod from the intake/exhaust edge and observe the effect?

Another idea is to fix a thin strip of perspex permanently to both edges of the bottom 'plate' and then use screws and a gasket to assemble and dismantle quickly. So for example if perspex is 3/16" thick, a 1/4" silicon tube would compress and seal very well. It may also be worth glueing a fixed location spigot where you marked the location with a blue circle to attach the steam pipe, so that you can adjust/manipulate the fish shape with both hands?

I can see why the parts werte so expensive with so many compression fittings, but perfect for experimenting with.

Well done Vortex, you have the basics now for some very interesting and observable testing!

I have just come across this while researching and it may offer some insights into improving the design. It is referred to as a Scramjet.

[Vortex]

Excellent Randy, they were very helpful especially the close ups of the fish design and construction.

The inside scoop, via PM, about the diagram of the steamfish is that Allcanadian has
told me he created the diagram, not Schauberger.
That is not to say it isn't a valid concept. A fish is a very good design, ask a fish.
I'm only saying that the ratios, curves and dimensions are untested and were not laid out by Schauberger.

Hey, I hope you removed all the gas from that cylinder before you heated it. ~ You must have nerves of steel, and yet you're the one who's worried about steam???

Yep is was a bit stinky at first. I could have had flaming bubbles if I wanted.

I do like the steamfish idea and can see that it does have great possibilities.

Flexible design will allow for faster development, configuration, ratios, curves, etc changes. The smaller the better because it will be easier to scale up than it will be to scale down.
Devices that can be tested with no pressure is the target size.
Steamfish1 is really too small, well the ratios are too large. The size is maybe
ok, the telephone wire was too large for the size of the device.
It has steam exiting like crazy without moving much water.

Here's a thought that might help with construction. Can you get a length of silicon tube to use for the actual design and shape of the fish instead of wire? By using the right size, it will compress between the perspex? and seal itself. If so, you can tack the tube in position and then you only need to hot glue the outside edges. That would enable faster gluing and easier re-shaping of tube. You may even be able to alter the contour by inserting a rod from the intake/exhaust edge and observe the effect?

Yes, critical is a flexible take it apart, move things around, put it back together and test device. Another is without sides/walls, Steamfish1 is confined with walls. If a design works correctly, removing the walls would
confirm it is correct. Having walls helps provide structure / support
for the device at this point in time.

Another idea is to fix a thin strip of perspex permanently to both edges of the bottom 'plate' and then use screws and a gasket to assemble and dismantle quickly. So for example if perspex is 3/16" thick, a 1/4" silicon tube would compress and seal very well. It may also be worth glueing a fixed location spigot where you marked the location with a blue circle to attach the steam pipe, so that you can adjust/manipulate the fish shape with both hands?

Yes I agree. What to use as gasket material? A gasket used on bottom plate
would allow quick disassemble and rebuild of the device. The configuration
would be laid out on the top clear plate and the bottom plate with gasket glued to it could be screwed to the top plate. Wood/metal screws would work great because you can vary the spacing between top/bottom plate easier than if you used bolts.

I can see why the parts werte so expensive with so many compression fittings, but perfect for experimenting with.

Well done Vortex, you have the basics now for some very interesting and observable testing!

I've yet to determine how to strap it all down or lay it out so I don't have to
mess around so much. Larger water tank is required because the water does
get pretty hot quickly in a small water tank. 5 gallon bucket might be
a good size which requires the entire setup to be elevated on a platform or something.

I have just come across this while researching and it may offer some insights into improving the design. It is referred to as a Scramjet.

Ramjets operate below Mach 5, Scramjets only operate above Mach 5 !!
I don't plan on going there with my coffee can water tank and steamfish

Randy

[byjoveoldchap]

"A Fish Is A Very Good Design, Ask A Fish."

The inside scoop, via PM, about the diagram of the steamfish is that Allcanadian has told me he created the diagram, not Schauberger. That is not to say it isn't a valid concept.

A fish is a very good design, ask a fish.

Randy

Well done Allcanadian for the fish design, and thank you Vortex for interviewing a fish to ask it's personal opinion on the design shape!


"A fish is a very good design, ask a fish."

I'm sure that ANY fish you asked would totally agree.
Thats a cracker Vortex!