Electrophorus

[dmonarch]

I recently read a book written in the 1900's which was on electro medicine. The book was discussing static electricity and different ways of charging a device. After a bit they came to Electrophorus. After reading it i was dumb founded. To me it seemed that by automating this simple little device you could produce energy for free.
Unlike most setups i have seen in the book instead of just having a resin which held the charge and a small metal plate with an insulating handle. It had one large grounded metal plate, resin poured into it that held the charge and a small plate with an insulating handle.
The procedure of use is to charge the resin by rubbing it with cat fur. Then place the small plate onto the resin. Earth the small plate by touching with the result being that you ended up with a positivly charged small plate. If you removed the plate you could then charge something. The process could be repeated continuosly as long as the charge stayed on the resin.
With the three plate setup if I remembered correctly when you touched the small plate you were left with a positive charge on it and the big plate became negativly charge.
Ok first why couldnt you instead of touching it replace that with a mechanical switch such as a relay. When the small plate is becoming positivly charged negative charge is flowing to ground. That one unit of energy you just got for free minus a little switching cost. Secondly as the negative is flowing to the ground so to is the positive flowing to the ground on the positive plate and so the large plate becomes negativly charged. Here is another unit of energy gained.
Thirdly now if you unearth the large plate at the same time as you unearthed the small plate you would be left positive on the small plate and negative on the large plate. If you close the circuit between the small and the large plate then you have another unit of energy.

Does this sound valid.
Here is the book i got the details from. I elaborated on the switching part.
Medical Electricity, Röntgen Rays, And Radium - Dr. Sinclair Tousey (Electrotherapy, Rontgen Rays, Roentgen Rays, Tesla Coils, Radium)
It is under static electricity chapter
While your there check out the excellent library
The Turn Of The Century Electrotherapy Museum Tesla Library

[dmonarch]

Does this sound correct.

I thought that there would be some comments on this good or otherwise. I am just learning electrostatics and so may have got it incorrect. Sure it dosnt sound like how todays books describe it but it does seem feasible.
As long as charge remains on the resin all your paying for is switching costs despite the amount of charge stored on the resin.
Come on guys. I know theres some smart people here. Find a mistake in the setup.

[Bodkins]

Great post magical info

[Sephiroth]

Interesting principle similar to the testatika. The only problem I can see is that the plates will be attracted to each other since they are both oppositly charged so the question is; can this generate more energy than the energy required to seperate the plates?

[dmonarch]

Plate seperation

You shouldnt need to physically seperate hte plates, but simply form switching. When you think about it the gain of electrons on the bottom large plate is due to the gain of the positive charge on the top small plate. The negative charge only exists on the bottom plate in an attempt to balance out the top plate but off course that cant happen as during the charging moment the furtherest it can get is onto the large plate and then is stoped by the resin. The system wants to balance itself out however there is an open circuit. If you close the circuit between the large plate and small plate there will be a high voltage spike and then you are back to the original state of the system ready for another cycle.
All your paying is for switching no physical movement of the plates needed.

[Sephiroth]

You will need to seperate the plates to be able to extract the charge from the other plate.

Say the static plate is the positive plate and the movable plate is where the negative charge is formed by the static plate. There will be no way to use the accumulated charge without shorting both the plates, or seperating the plates and then earthing the negative plate. if you connected the negative plate to earth while it was still in proximity to the postive plate, then the charge will not move from the plate as it is still attracted to the positive charge.

[ren]

Dmonarch, if I may, I suggest studying this machine here :The wimshurst electrostatic influence machine and how to make one

You may or may not have heard of the Wimhurst electrostatic device before, but it seems to have some of the properties you are talking about. Theres no reason why you couldnt use a monopole as your rotating disc and make your own, or you can buy them premade as seen here Search Results - Sciencelabs.com

Also look at this page, cat fur may not be such a bad idea as ludicrous as it sounds Materials that Cause Static Electricity - Succeed in Physical Science: School for Champions

[dmonarch]

Shorting plates

Yeah sephiroth. That is exactly what you would be doing is shorting the plates between each other. Remember the negative charge is only on the large plate because the positive charge on the small plate. The resin does not allow the equilibration but if you short the two then you have a third unit of energy.
Beside that your forgetting that before even getting to the point of having a negative charge on the large plate and a positive on the small plate we have already got on hv discharge between the small plate and earth so as to make it postive charged, that is usable. Second at the same electrons are pulled into the large plate which is another voltage flow into the large plate, which is usable energy. Third you get rid of the charge on the large and small plate so as to get back to the beggining for another round by shorting the large and small plate together which is another unit of usable energy.
So all this time we have three switching events obtaining three unit of energy from one unit of energy on the resin which dosnt disipate under the right conditions and all we did was pay for switching using a relay. The plates are never actually physically moved just switching with relays is used in its place.
If the large plate wasnt there you could never bring the system back to start with switching you would have to physically move the small plate away from the resin.

[Inquorate]

Scr switched by neon to cap?

@ dmonarch - I found this thread only by searching through threads. Been reading what you and bodkins been talking about in radiant matter thread, and have from there researched the Electret... Seems that surfboard wax is made primarily of the Carnauba wax that exhibits this Electret effect, with a little coconut oil. Also, high grade car wax such as turtle platinum.. If I can get my hands on this wax, I'll try pulsing an scr with a neon from it, to an ignition coil to a battery...

Seems too simple. Also, a bunch of plastic ribs like a transistor heat sink should help it pick up static from air, and increase the effect, as well as a ground rod..

Pity they take a week to make, I might not cope too well just thinking about this for so long.

Ps, also maybe try ground quartz and different metal salts in mix?

Seems way too simple

[Inquorate]

This guy seems to have done it

Electret Capacitor Based Battery Charging System

[dmonarch]

Electret

Hi Inquorote. Yeah thats the wax. I managed to buy a kilo of bees wax and a kilo af the wax you mentioned for 70 bucks. I bought it from a wood varnishing place online.

Yeah your right about the points. Im not sure if it was you or someone else posted something about a person using balloons up in the atmosphere to collect electricity and the balloons had points on them as well. I knew that charge leaks out of points but i didnt know that it prefered to move into points like blood through a tube.

I didnt think it took a week to do. Heres where i got the info on how to make one Electrets Now after reading a bit better yeah the curing part takes a couple of weeks. Darn.

I have always wanted to see as well what would be the effect if the during creation process the wax was being rotated. Not sure what would happen, have any ideas. Maybe a permanent static motor. Only requiring an electric field to rotate no current. Dont think would be that strong. But then if that were the effect and you didnt allow it to rotate would it cause the air above to rotate. That would neat.

Yeah I have always wanted to make a chi generator. Rick anderson whose link i posted on the blank water thread was given a unit to try out. He took a bit further and pulled it apart. What he found was a resin which has metal particles embeded in it. During the setting process a copper tube had been inserted in the center making sure no wax was inside the copper tube so it was hollow after finished. Around the resin or wax was one coil which had noise put into and next to a coil which had dc pulses put into it. Apparanetly the end results was a chi machine. He said he could feel anything but that dosnt mean to much some can, some cant You just got to know what to look for. Going on 20 years ago I read a small book on invocation and the person was using such machines in the ritual. He was able to increase the level of chi or aether in the room to the point that a photo of the invoked being could be taken. How much i believe i dont know. As far as im concerned with anything unless you try you neve know.

Do you have any ideas had such a matarial would act. I mean obviously its like have a large number of capacitors and so in that sense it is very similar to a bunch of animal cells. Obviously some are in parallel and some in series. The complexity of it though would be incredible

At one time i was thinking of using one of those cake tins that have a clip at the side which you pull and the side come off leaving only the base. That would work nicely. Maybe you could paint the side walls with a non conducitng matarials. Then all you would have to do is cut out a couple of slightly smaller circles which would fit in the tin. Put the tin together. Place one circle on the bottom, put the wax in, heat it up. Put the other circle on the top. Apply the voltage to the bottom of the tin and to the top circle and wham thats a very nice clean way of making allot of electrets. What would be a could non conductive paint though.

[dmonarch]

Battery charger

Wow thats pretty cool. Wonder sought of results he got with it.

[Inquorate]

wax inside plastic or glass tube with coil wound?

I wonder if the pulsing would register on a coil wound around the Electret, or wither a coil of wire inside it would do anything?

For a while on the imhotep ignition coil thread, we were noticing that the radiant event of coil collapse would trigger the transistor (specifically the semiconductor) and then we noticed after a while the transistors would stay open, no longer switching. So if put ground up quartz in the wax and pulsed with radiant energy ( the fluffy kind),

Wonder what would happen.

[dmonarch]

Coil wrap

Im not sure what would happen. For one thing it is balanced. Essentially it would seem like in electricity we are dealing with big chuncky electrons and an extreme super gas radiant. We need to start dealing with the super gas alone.

[Inquorate]

aether interaction of Electret

It must be interacting with the aether in a big way, which is why t brown used it to put huge hv fields into and get easy motion. Ie more impacts and more electron production than most other (untreated) materials... It's probably electron creation because from descriptions, there,s nothing gaseous about the spark. Can't wait to get started. Or for xmas to be over. Bah, humbug.