The Great Global Warming Swindle

[Farmhand]

This is what is wrong with the world in my opinion "The Iron Law of Wages" or the "Substinance Theory of wages".

Iron Law of Wages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Constant growth is needed for our current system to work. Where will it end. Everyone wants more.
There are more people wanting more.
More growth more inflation.
The more money we earn the more things cost.
This is a recipe for disaster even without all the corruption and manipulation.

One day soon people will wake up in the morning and thier money will be worthless pieces of paper or just digits in a computer system (worthless as well) however the planet will be ruined and when we try to eat our money we will get insufficient sustenance from it to survive.

Maybe then people will realise the futility of what has been happening for so long and the love of money is not a fruitfull embrace.

If we want to help we should.
Try to waste less stuff, complain when you see wanton waste.
Earn less money to make it worth more.
To have should be to not want, try not to want so much of what you don't need.
Slow down and smell the roses while there are still some to smell.
Resist the quickening.

Nature tries very hard to wash away our pollution, if we slow down enough and reduce the load Mother Nature will take care of the rest, we can't control Nature fully nor understand it fully ever.

If we don't want it (consumer products) so bad we won't be so upset if we don't get it.

I honestly believe that many people earning too much money per houshold and having too much disposable income makes things more expensive. And in turn causing us to need to earn more money.

An example if I am selling apples for a dollar and I have 100 bags apples to sell daily to make a living and every day for a week my apples are all sold in one hour I would think that was great because I would have lots of "free" time, however most people would not think of it that way they would raise the price of the apples to make maximum profit and so anyone having trouble affording the apples to begin with are priced out of apples. Apples would then go unpurchased and get wasted while people go hungry.

You can see this happens when you look at the food wasted by the money making machines called (supermarkets).

Lets take back control by doing without as much of thier trinkets an uneeded stuff as possible. If you find you have too much extra money, try to work less hours to give sombody else a job.

Maybe if others see us enjoying our free time, they will want to have some free time too. While we are free to do as we wish with our time we are free.

Take care.

[RedRightHand]

I said it before and i'll say it again, the carbon tax or whatever else people would like to call it, is a distraction to draw our attention away from more important pollution issues.

I agree 100% this debate over CO2 is distracting us from all the other stupid things humans do to this planet in the name of 'progress'.

Will somebody that is a proponant for man made global warming, please tell me how some money will remove carbon from the atmosphere ?

Firstly, money (if spent right) can be put into a global fund for clean energy R&D, this money can also be spent helping poorer countries skip making a mess like we did and go straight to clean energy systems.
NOTE: This was established a few days ago in Mexico.

Secondly, a tax can be used as a deterrent to unhealthy behavior. (like cigarettes & alcohol)

For example:

A company makes 1000MW of energy from coal and sells it to you. It costs them 5c to make it using dirty methods, and 9c to make it using clean methods. So they make it dirty and charge you 20c - nice 15c profit for the company.

Now the government puts a 5c Tax on the dirty methods. CO2.
The company can't change the consumer price, because you, the consumer will just change to a competitor.
So the companies profit for using dirty methods is now 10c, but if it changes to the clean method it's profit will be 11c. So instead of hearing a million excuses, and all sorts of heel dragging from polluting companies - they will change there methods from dirty to clean instantly - because if they don't, they will loose money and their CEO jobs. Suddenly you get everyone cleaning their methods and the result is less pollution and cleaner air.

You then use this money collected to fund a huge Clean Energy Research and Development and also buy back land to turn into National Parks.


My argument is - if you didn't privatize the electric company in the first place, then you wouldn't need the tax - because the people would still control their electricity supply and could change what they wanted!

Red

[Farmhand]

Hi red,

Your explaination is fine right up to the part in bold,

A company makes 1000MW of energy from coal and sells it to you. It costs them 5c to make it using dirty methods, and 9c to make it using clean methods. So they make it dirty and charge you 20c - nice 15c profit for the company.

Now the government puts a 5c Tax on the dirty methods. CO2.
The company can't change the consumer price, because you, the consumer will just change to a competitor.So the companies profit for using dirty methods is now 10c, but if it changes to the clean method it's profit will be 11c. So instead of hearing a million excuses, and all sorts of heel dragging from polluting companies - they will change there methods from dirty to clean instantly - because if they don't, they will loose money and their CEO jobs. Suddenly you get everyone cleaning their methods and the result is less pollution and cleaner air.

The company can charge you more because the competitor has also raised thier price, because of the tax. The price of electric energy from the grid is rising all the time, accross the board.

Other than that which in my opinion is the point behind my argument, I agree however....

The tax money will be mismanaged anyway just like a lot of the other tax money is mismanaged and wasted.

I do get your point though I don't see it that way.

Regards

[Farmhand]

Yes privatizing the electric company was a mistake. That I do agree with 100%.

Electricity is not the only industry or product that will be affected by the carbon tax, directly or indirectly.

I can only say less taxes is always a better way to go.

Governments often offer pay rises rather than tax cuts, there is a reason for that. If they offer a tax cut they get less tax money to waste but the worker gets more. If they offer a pay rise then they get more tax money to waste and the worker gets more. Where does the difference come from ? That is the big question. Do they print it ? Or is the increased cost met by the employer then passed on to the consumer ?

It's much the same thing.

Pay rises are offered in percentages so the one's who earn more get a bigger raise.

If a tax cut was offered it would probably be offered in a way to benifit the higher income's as well. It all seems wrong to me.

Cheers

[RedRightHand]

If you stand back from the whole example you can see it like this:

Without Tax:
Dirty Energy Costs - 20c
Clean Energy Costs - 24c
Everyone buys dirty, hey it's cheaper and I don't trust AGW...

With Tax:
Dirty Energy Costs - 25c
Clean Energy Costs - 24c
Everyone buys clean energy, because they want to save the planet...NOT! because it is cheaper!

I think the funds could be mismanaged too, but I also think their wouldn't be a lot of companies paying the Tax. It's far cheaper just to invest the money to clean up their act and not pay any tax.

All this TAX will do is make sure any new energy plant built is Clean Energy and not dirty. If you the consumer is already buying Green energy (+4c) then there is no change to you. If you are still buying dirty energy... well yes you will have to join the rest of us at +4c.

The company could also make the energy for 2c cheaper then now if it pollutes even more then now - should we cut back current environment laws to save money on energy?
Where do you draw the line?

What we need to avoid is directly taxing citizens. Private Cars, Boats etc.
We should only put a Tax on companies, because they profit from killing us. We the citizens are only living our lives.

Red

[Farmhand]

G'day Red, I have to admit you explained that very well, and I can see there is some sense to that way of thinking.

Maybe it could work like that. If it did that would be a way forward. I just don't like the whole idea of money is needed to fix every problem, it's either throw money at they problem to make it go away for a while or inflict monetary losses like fine's or taxes to stop people doing the wrong thing.

I just wish our governments would use common sense, brains and REAL Science to fix problems the best way. And jail people or punish them other ways (community service) for doing the wrong thing.

Some of the worst crimes against the environment go reletively unpunished because a fine is paid by the company involved, which is of course is usually a pittance compared to the funds generated by the company and passed on to the consumer or written off as a tax deduction or whatever else they can come up with.

Anyway thanks for putting your view accross so well. It would be good if worked like you say, but i go by the theory that if you trust sombody once and they decieve you it's thier fault but if you trust them again and they deceive you again you only have yourself to blame. Our governments waste our money like it is nothing, but every single dollar of tax paid by a worker is representitive of a portion of thier life. It should be treated with a lot more respect. eg. not wasted all the time.

I appologise to all for ranting. It just annoys me so.

Cheers

[RedRightHand]

YouTube - URGENT - BRITAIN TO FREEZE DUE TO DEATH OF THE GULF STREAM

Check this out!

Thank God I live in the tropics!

Red

[Joit]

YouTube - URGENT - BRITAIN TO FREEZE DUE TO DEATH OF THE GULF STREAM

Check this out!

Thank God I live in the tropics!

Red

Equals Post #748, One Page earlier.
http://www.energeticforum.com/121492-post748.html
Yawn.

[Peter Lindemann]

Perspective

Hi Folks,

Here is an interesting article about the climate 700 million years ago.

BBC News - Life may have survived 'Snowball Earth' in ocean pockets

Peter

[Karl]

YouTube - URGENT - BRITAIN TO FREEZE DUE TO DEATH OF THE GULF STREAM

Check this out!

Thank God I live in the tropics!

Red

How can a cooled/broken gulf stream warm the west coast, and cause freezing incoming from the East?
Ah I remember cos the IPPC said Global cooling is Global warming, there scientific data will no doubt show that we have been wrong all these years & black is in fact white

Edit & don't forget last year UK had the worst white out in years, No gulf oil disaster then, could it just be the IPPC is simply wrong, possibly, maybe?

[RedRightHand]

How can a cooled/broken gulf stream warm the west coast, and cause freezing incoming from the East?

There is a long answer, but I prefer, The Butterfly Effect Analogy.

Ah I remember cos the IPPC said Global cooling is Global warming, there scientific data will no doubt show that we have been wrong all these years & black is in fact white

I believe they call it Climate Change, to avoid debates such as this.

Edit & don't forget last year UK had the worst white out in years, No gulf oil disaster then, could it just be the IPPC is simply wrong, possibly, maybe?

If you take the time to read about what the scientists are saying, this becomes apparent. The Atlantic current has been slowing in recent years, they predicted it to stop in 10-20 years. BP Oil spill just pushed it over the edge and makes it very obvious.

We must face the fact that whatever choice we make, BP will profit. It profit's from the extra heating now required in Europe, if we change to green energy they will profit too, because they are heavily invested in that also.

Debating whether or not the Atlantic current has stopped is just silly. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at those satellite maps and see something very wrong is happening.

Red

[Farmhand]

Red said,

I believe they call it Climate Change, to avoid debates such as this.

I don't think many people buy the climate change label it is broad enough to cover all possibilities.

We all know the climate changes they will need to be more specific than that.

I have no doubt human activity is contributing to global climate change, but without being able to say for sure what is happening eg. excessive heating or excessive cooling. How on earth can they say what we should do about it.

It's like asking sombody on the phone where they are and the just say they are "moving" with no indication in which direction. Completely useless information.

If they have something to say that is so important and needs action that will cost millions of dollars they better be right ( which is a whole lot of work from the workers ) we all know that if the blue collar workers don't go to work or strike, pretty much everything stops. Without the workers the fat cats are nothing. People don't like to be played with or played the fool.

Which is it global warming or global cooling ? If that question cannot be answered then how on earth are we supposed to beleive anything they say.

Seems like they will say whatever they think will work or what works for thier agenda.

Warming or cooling? thats the question.

Cheers

[Karl]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at those satellite maps and see something very wrong is happening.

Red

Yea Global Warming is freezing the planet

"If you take the time to read about what the scientists are saying, this becomes apparent. The Atlantic current has been slowing in recent years, they predicted it to stop in 10-20 years."

Yea, because the Planet is getting colder

I feel the following clip sums it all up nicely

YouTube - Global Warming

[jibbguy]

...yeah, then ah, but , um... what about the other planets "heating up " then?

[Aaron]

current

Yea Global Warming is freezing the planet

"If you take the time to read about what the scientists are saying, this becomes apparent. The Atlantic current has been slowing in recent years, they predicted it to stop in 10-20 years."

For the fact that the Earth has been cooling for the last 10-15 years
shouldn't be a surprise. The current has been slowing for a little over 10 years all by itself without BP. Cooling isn't entirely caused only by that current
I doubt but just another natural thing that has nothing to do with co2
or anything manmade.

BP spill may have sped it up but again, yes was already happening all on
its own.