Gray Tube Replication

[BASHydro]

Bill Beaty wrote this

@all Bill Beaty wrote this here: 4hv.org: Forums / High Voltage / "Runaway breakdown" for creating *really* long sparks What do u think?

Sparks leap between electrodes because of progressive ionization of the air. Once gas-breakdown has been triggered, the plasma contributes bare electrons via avalanche, and also creates UV radiation, both of which ionize the next bit of air into spark-stuff.

But there is a second little-known kind of spark. While in 1-atm air, electrons normally have very short trajectories, and can travel a cm or two before being halted. However, if electrons should travel across a voltage drop of approximately 1MV or larger, they suddenly are able to travel a hundred times further in air. At kinetic energy of around 1MeV or higher, electrons go relativistic (travelling at nearly the speed of light) and the collision rules are different. The air seems more transparent.

If such "fast electrons" should travel through an electric field, they gain far more energy than normal electrons would, since normal electrons experience far more 'air friction' via multiple collisions with air molecules. In other words, the fast electrons think that our air pressure is 0.01 atmosphere, and they behave more like a particle beam rather than an outbreak of fractal spark-plasma. With 100x less 'friction,' fast electrons are easily accelerated by fairly weak e-fields.

In addition, if they strike air molecules, fast electrons can create more fast electrons. This opens up the possibility of a different kind of spark, a spark based on an outbreak of a different kind of electron-avalance. Physicists refer to this by several names:

Runaway breakdown
Electron runaway
Runaway electrons

Also see , and the short wikipedia entry I wrote on this.

This bit of physics is increasingly in the news because it may explain some of the continuing mysteries of lightning. Lightning is not a conventional spark, since it occurs at far too low a voltage. But if cosmic background radiation (the geiger counter clicks) can easily supply a tiny amount of fast electrons, an immensely long spark might form via runaway breakdown rather than the usual UV and avalanche ionization. And this spark might grow despite a very weak environmental e-field present in storm clouds. Or said differently: because cosmic rays are present, lightning in a storm would strike at much higher frequency because the e-fields would not have to grow very large before a spark appeared to short them out again.

[Electrotek]

What We Now Know Part 4

Splitting the Positive:

To be discontinued.

[lamare]

Interesting article

Hi all,

I found an interesting article about a.o. sparks and arcs:

Frolov on resonant tuning and the Avramenko plug

Towards the end of the 1960s Prof. Alexander V. Chernetsky and Uri A. Galkin,
Institute of Electrical Engineering, Moscow, carried out experiments using
strong arc currents and observed a phenomenon they called, the "self-
generating discharge".  Figure 1 shows the voltage U and current I for this
special case of arc.
                                 _ _
                              /       \   current I
                           /\          \
                         /   \          \
                    _ /        \          \   _   _
                ----------------\--------------------------- t
                                 \       --
                                  \    /     \
                                   \ _/ voltage U

                            Figure 1

Note that for part of the cycle the current is increasing while the voltage is
decreasing. [...]
This fact means that in the process of the self-generating discharge, by
Chernetsky, the power P = I U  is the inflow into the system from an 
outside source.

Detailed description of Chernetsky's experiments were published in English in
[2] and [3]. Power output was up to 500 Kwatts and the proof of a reverse
current from the experimental system into the electric station was detected.

The Swiss M-L converter described in [4] and [5] uses a high potential source
like the Wimshurst machine where it is connected to "spark gap cylinders".
These devices are capacitors which have spires between the cylinders to create
a "slow electrical arc" between the inner and outer cylinders.

Anyone have any idea what he could mean with "spires"????

That Avramenko plug appears to be interesting too, BTW.

More by Frolov at:
work of potential field to get the power in load

[Spokane1]

Exotic Arcs

[QUOTE=BASHydro;58918]@all Bill Beaty wrote this here: 4hv.org: Forums / High Voltage / "Runaway breakdown" for creating *really* long sparks What do u think?

But there is a second little-known kind of spark. While in 1-atm air, electrons normally have very short trajectories, and can travel a cm or two before being halted. However, if electrons should travel across a voltage drop of approximately 1MV or larger, they suddenly are able to travel a hundred times further in air. At kinetic energy of around 1MeV or higher, electrons go relativistic (travelling at nearly the speed of light) and the collision rules are different. The air seems more transparent.

If such "fast electrons" should travel through an electric field, they gain far more energy than normal electrons would, since normal electrons experience far more 'air friction' via multiple collisions with air molecules. In other words, the fast electrons think that our air pressure is 0.01 atmosphere, and they behave more like a particle beam rather than an outbreak of fractal spark-plasma. With 100x less 'friction,' fast electrons are easily accelerated by fairly weak e-fields.

In addition, if they strike air molecules, fast electrons can create more fast electrons. This opens up the possibility of a different kind of spark, a spark based on an outbreak of a different kind of electron-avalance. Physicists refer to this by several names:

Runaway breakdown
Electron runaway
Runaway electrons

Dear BASHyrdo

These kinds of ideas are interesting and a lot more can be found in a multiude of of very well written volumes on Plasma and Spark physics.

In the E.V.Gray (Marvin Cole) technology we has some important energy limitations to consider. The unit power supply that is the foundation of all this magic has an energy rating of between 30-50 Watts. This is limited by the mechanical chopoper that was used (electromechanical vibrator) and the ignition coil as well.

The voltage levels (up to 6KV) and the size of the storage capacitor (up to 12 uF) give us around 150 Joules to work with. In my study of exotic arcs, that can be created as you describe, it takes potentials in excess of 20 KV and more often in the 100 KV range. Under these conditions all kinds of wired stuff happens (i.e. syncrotron and direct x-ray radiation). That is why the military has funded this kind of expensive research for years.

When I review classical discharge physics I always check to see if thier area of operation is within the parameters of the Gray technology. I find a lot of it isn't. It is either to high a voltage, to large of a pulse current, or to fast of a time rise. But the ideas are still important to keep in mind. A lot of this kind of research is done in a vacuum chamber.

Dr. Tesla was able to get his Table Top Oscillators to yield sheets of streames with only 25 watts of input (thus suggesting an OU process), yet no one has been able to reproduce that demonstration (1896). Some how Dr. Tesla, Marvin Cole and possibly Henry Moray were able to work wonders with a very small input.

Keep reading. If some of what your are exploring can be done with the output of an automotive ignition coil and common components - then I'm interested in what you find.

Spokane1

[RAMSET]

Strange Sparks?

YouTube - Эксперимент с трансформатором Тесла

[Peter Lindemann]

Original and Fantastic

Hi Guy's
Here is my new circuit

Marcoz.

Marcoz,

WOW. What a great circuit. I can't believe you came up with it! Its so original and meaningful!! Those variable capacitors just make all the difference in the World. I am dying of envy.

How did you do it? What is the secret to your bursts of genius? You must drink Carrot Juice, or something.



Peter

[Spokane1]

HV Pulse Instrument / Measurement Challenge

Dear Forum Members,

Would anyone care to review the attached scope trace and offer their professional HV experiance as what I'm looking at???

This is the voltage and pulse current across the 4 uF 8KV storage capacitor in a 95% replication of the Ghst circuit.

The current pulse is trace #2. It is the sharp 4 uS pulse on the right side taken with a Pearson Model 110 Wide Band Current Transformer. The sensing conductor has been been divided into three parts to extend the range of the transformer. The aproximate vertical scale is now 150 Amps/division. Since the full wave form is cut off I guess the peak is around 1500 Amps. This is what I would expect to see for a discharge of this type with very little inductance. There is some inductance because the sweep does go negative for a little while.

It is the voltage response that has me puzzled. This is trace #1. The trace is inverted so that the ground doesn't bleed off charge from the capacitor. I'm using a 100 Meg LeCroy 6KV resistor type HV probe. The vertical scale is 1 KV/ division. The attached 6KV Electroscope (additional measurement) reports a voltage of 5 KV while the initial voltage on the scope is 5.5 KV.


The question is:

Why doesn't the voltage drop to near zero in persuit of the current? But, as you can see it hardly changes during the current pulse. It follows an RC expoential decay that lasts about 200 uS compared to the 4 uS duration of the current pulse. I know certain kinds of capacitors are slow to yield their fund of energy but that should impact the rate of the current discharge as well. Since the current pulse is through a spark gap, with switching times on the order of 10 nS, then once the arc opens up what ever charge left in the capacitor should stay there. But that is not what I see. There appears to be a whole lot of voltage left in the capacitor long after 99% of the classical current has left.

The storage capacitor is composed of two 4uF 4KV paper-oil can capacitors that come from the 50's. They are about the size of a half gallon of milk. They are connected in series and each one is shunted by a 66 Meg 6KV resistor to act as a voltage equalizer / bleeder.

I have made pulse current measurements for years, but I have not had the probe to measure the voltage at the same time. Perhaps I would have seen this long ago and learned what is going on. But I call upon your experiance to speed up the learning curve here.

Perhaps I have a measurement error in this setup.

Any technical comments would be appreciated.

Spokane1

[Spokane1]

Historical Windings in the E.V.Gray Motors

thanks for my prev que??

thank you spokeane1

i want to ask what wire size should i use in the motor
and how many turns
i decide 30 ga and 1200 turns

please help me

Dear Mr. pranav2010,

The GD photos from 1974 show that the Major and Minor electromagnets of the EMA4-E2 motor are wound with about #24 AWG copper magnet wire. We can't determine the number of turns because we have no idea as to what the cross section of the core is. So, your guess is as good as any.

The recovered EMA4 and EMA5 motors that now belong to Al Francouer of Canada were wound with #14 AWG copper magnet wire. This was a retrofit job done in 1980 by a Mr. Nelson Schlaft. These were not the original windings. According to Mr. Schlaft the original wire was much smaller and it was potted in a light brown "gunky" material. Mr. Schlaft didn't repot the windings in anything. This work was contracted out to a machine shop in Canyon County, CA (NE of LA)

I suspect that #30 AWG is a little small, but go with what feels best. You can always change as you get some experimental data.

I can't help you with methods to up load a book. That is outside of my skill set.

Spokane1

[Marcoz]

Variable capacitors.

Marcoz,

WOW. What a great circuit. I can't believe you came up with it! Its so original and meaningful!! Those variable capacitors just make all the difference in the World. I am dying of envy.

How did you do it? What is the secret to your bursts of genius? You must drink Carrot Juice, or something.



Peter

Hey men i am using variable capacitors all the time to fine tune the tube.
Especially those in the picture below work well.
Exept for when there is some dust between the plates, then it produces a violent spark and a loud bang

Marcoz.

[Altair]

Hi Marcoz,
I think Peter was being sarcastic...

On another subject, I think the argument between Electrotek and Aaron is the evidence of something really important being discovered here, and obviously the "inventor" is just trying to keep his name in the books for posterity.
So please guys, don't let a different between you two deprive us, and the rest of the world, from capital information. Every little bit counts and you are the 2 main contributors of advanced circuits. Anyway, you're already fighting against much more formidable foes than each other, in tring to bring this to the world.

Electrotek, please consider continuing posting you series.
As they say, if you don't like a person in the crowd, play for just the rest of the crowd.

[Spokane1]

Variable Air Capacitors as E.V.Gray Components

Hey men i am using variable capacitors all the time to fine tune the tube.
Especially those in the picture below work well.
Exept for when there is some dust between the plates, then it produces a violent spark and a loud bang

Marcoz.

Dear Mr. Marcoz,

Nice collection of variable air capacitors you have there.

In working with that kind of component, how high of an applied voltage can you work with before you have a breakdown between the plates? I was under the impression that close spacing like that was limited to about 500V. I have seen larger transmitter variable capacitors that have about 0.500" between the plates and they are said to handle up to 5KV. I know that my variable vacuum capacitors only go to 10 KV and thye are usless when attempting to directly tune the parisitic tank capacitance in the secondary of an ignition coil.

I understand that plate capacitors have a very low capacitance value - say on the order of 200 pF per section. This means that you can't get very much total capacitance using such a device. Maybe you have come across a topology and/or method that doesn't need a significant amount of capacitance - if so so much the better.

Are you able to get results with a variable capacitor in the location where you show your main storage capacitor?, or do you have a fixed capacitor in shunt with it and then use the variable capacitor for fine tuning? Even then a variable capacitor is 4 orders of magnitude smaller than the typical value of storage capacitor found in the Gray/Cole technology (5-12 uF). I hope our window of operation is not so small that a .001% change would make the differance between classical and non-classical operation.

Most interesting component variation. I would like to see how one of those uints function in your particular proposed Gray/Cole circuit. A trace of the voltage-current relationship during discharge would be very instructive.

Spokane1

[Marcoz]

Capacitors

Hello Spokane

Well Yes you are correct about the voltage.
I have had 500 Volts on them but then they flash between plates every now and then.

But these are not my main storage capacitors.
The storage capacitors i use are in the picture below
Also on the other picture you can see the High Voltage Oil Transformers that i use, besides ignition coils and flybacks.

Marcoz.

PS: I did some testing earlier today and ive made a small video
Here it is: http://universalpower.webs.com/grayc...ancetest1.divx

[Spokane1]

Maxwell HV Capacitors

Hello Spokane

But these are not my main storage capacitors.
The storage capacitors i use are in the picture below

Marcoz.

Any more of those Maxwell 5KV capacitors avaliable at a resonable price?

Spokane1

[Marcoz]

Capacitors

Hello Spokane

I got those capacitors from some dump shop.
The guy only had 3 and i took them all 3.( i needed 3 )
Prize was 25 euro each so i don't know if it's expensive but i took them anyway.
You can find High Voltage capacitors if you look for it...

Marcoz.

[Aaron]

capacitance

Utilizing the concepts of the Gray Tube, phenomenal power can be had with only a 2uf capacitor. I would really encourage experimenters to not go overboard with the size of the caps because the capacitance isn't where it's at according to my tests.