Gray Tube Replication

[Spokane1]

Gray Voltage doubler circuit

Mark,

As an electrician, I've seen HID lights which use a spiral line generator to strike the lamp, with this capacitor wound around the transformer's core, as shown in patent #4724362. I think this approach could work for Gray's circuit, as an easy alternative to the ignition coil some are using. I've also noticed that Gray's schematic appears to incorporate the diode T-tap circuit I discovered in the 80's. This is a voltage doubler which applies twice the operating voltage between the grid and rod when the switch is closed. This is IF the tube sparks between the grid and rod, which is a presumption.

Also, I didn't go to electrician's school, so I missed out on the technical background. Just OJT. Before that I was a projectionist in various theaters in the Mid West and North West. Before automation hit the theaters. I'm just a hobbyist who likes to make sparks and read patents and the Internet.

So, you see the need for a voltage doubler also, Interesting. I'm sure you have read where one of Gray's referenced patents is by Phinney US#3,619,638. This is also a voltage doubler circuit that explains the need for two power supplies. I'm sure there are other designs that would work if the components can survive the huge electrostatic harvest pulse.

In the pulse motor, Cole didn't need his primary voltage doubled - his autotransformers stepped up the voltage to what ever he needed. What he desperatly needed was a means to discharge the main storage capacitors at a very specific rotration location on the shaft so that his electromagnets were in the right position to do their thing. He was going to have to switch 400 - 600 ampers for a duration of about 11 miliseconds. That kind of current would destroy a rotary contact in a few hours of continuous operation. So, he latched onto the Phinney circuit. Hackenberger attempted to develop the "Converter Element Switching Tube" to do the same job with fewer wires. I think this approach finally proved to be a a failure. By mid 1976 he removed them from his EMA6 motor.

Did you know that Richard had the opportunity to build the last Gray motor in 1979 - 1980. It was 8" in diameter and called "The Blue Motor" It was built in Dodge City, KS. He might have finally figured out what he had over looked in the design of the EMA6. Gray and Hackenberger slipped away in the middle of the night and took the motor with them - that their funding source had paid for. Hackenberger died right after that escape. Gray hid out in San Dieago until he found another funding source. He then set up shop in Canyon City, CA under a fake business name. He then hired yet another technician to get this new motor to work right. And so the story continued for another decade.

The strike method you mention for HID arc ignition sounds inhteresting also.

Don't worry about your education, its only do you some good if you are going to do a lot of classical work. When you deal with "out of the box" technologies it is inspiration that is far more important. After that comes gumption and stick-to it-ness.

Spokane1

[Electrotek]

HOLY CRAP!!!! does anyone see that this is once again STOLEN TESLA TECH.... His air coil has 2 primaries, probably with a spark gap in series in between them, and both are wound in OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS....That's why both wires on the primary are coming off the top of the coil (you can't see the turn around/spark gap point on the other side). This make 2 bucking magnetic fields, choking the electrons, and allowing the AEther energy to flow in the circuit. Or maybe it simply turns the primary into nothing more than an electrostatic inductor with NO magnetic induction...or maybe it radically changes the selfinduction and self capacitance of the coil leading to a radically different transformation and transfer of energy. Also similar to Ralph Bergstresser's spark prolonging coil

I've been saying this for SO long: bucking magnetic fields create flux compression and tension...you can probably have a super saturation of magnetic flux when under compression or tension
I just watched an interview of that guy from Lockheed Martin's Skunworks, and he said that he found that an object falls at a slower acceleration due to "gravity" when under the influence of 2 bucking magnetic fields. he put 2 $5000 neodimium magnets with like poles clamped together inside one object, and an other object of the same size, shape, and weight without magnets fell faster.

The Tesla connection is well known. When Gray was working for GE, one of his co workers was a Mr. A. Poppoff, who had been one of Tesla's assistants. What function Gray performed on that job is a matter for conjecture but it's said that Poppoff povided Gray with the key information which initiated the motor technology. And the importance of the bifilar coil to Tesla's Radiant Energy should not be forgotten. I'm not sure if this is the same as the bucking magnetic fields, but two bucking coils can at least simulate a bifilar inductance. Still, I do think the primaries on the hollow core transformer are bifilar.

In the picture, one of the white battery cables is only several inches long, just sticking out to the side of the battery. Martin did some contrast enhancing and pointed out the end of this cable - which is stripped for about 3/4" - has two much smaller gauge wires wrapped around it. These smaller wires are likely the ends of the two primary windings which form the thin layer under the black tape. Each of these two wires, laid down side by side, are connected to their respective Black Box. The way one of the curly white wires is stretched out would be consistent with the Black Boxes producing two different frequencies, something which would be needed to match the mass resonances of the two heavy secondary windings.

The function of the primary windings is unclear. They could be used as a means to charge the tube's plastic. The wires also look like they might be nichrome. If they are resistive, they may be involved with the arc stretching effect inside the tube, similar to Farnsworth's patent #1969399 with the resistive wire around the glass tube. Or it may just be a simple transformer, with the two frequencies producing a beat frequency wave resulting in a non linear effect. If this is all it is, the secondaries could still be picking up the floating static field's flux, coming from the interaction between the stretched arc and the plastic. But it's probably a combination of things.

And that's very interesting about the fall rates of the two magnets. FWIW Gray eventually designed a space drive with which positive rays would be sent through a super conducting grid.



By inertiatek at 2010-05-23

[Spokane1]

Gray's Technical History (Or Lack There OF)

The Tesla connection is well known. When Gray was working for GE, one of his co workers was a Mr. A. Poppoff, who had been one of Tesla's assistants. What function Gray performed on that job is a matter for conjecture but it's said that Poppoff povided Gray with the key information which initiated the motor technology. And the importance of the bifilar coil to Tesla's Radiant Energy should not be forgotten. I'm not sure if this is the same as the bucking magnetic fields, but two bucking coils can at least simulate a bifilar inductance. Still, I do think the primaries on the hollow core transformer are bifilar.

In the picture, one of the white battery cables is only several inches long, just sticking out to the side of the battery. Martin did some contrast enhancing and pointed out the end of this cable - which is stripped for about 3/4" - has two much smaller gauge wires wrapped around it. These smaller wires are likely the ends of the two primary windings which form the thin layer under the black tape. Each of these two wires, laid down side by side, are connected to their respective Black Box. The way one of the curly white wires is stretched out would be consistent with the Black Boxes producing two different frequencies, something which would be needed to match the mass resonances of the two heavy secondary windings.

The function of the primary windings is unclear. They could be used as a means to charge the tube's plastic. The wires also look like they might be nichrome. If they are resistive, they may be involved with the arc stretching effect inside the tube, similar to Farnsworth's patent #1969399 with the resistive wire around the glass tube. Or it may just be a simple transformer, with the two frequencies producing a beat frequency wave resulting in a non linear effect. If this is all it is, the secondaries could still be picking up the floating static field's flux, coming from the interaction between the stretched arc and the plastic. But it's probably a combination of things.

And that's very interesting about the fall rates of the two magnets. FWIW Gray eventually designed a space drive with which positive rays would be sent through a super conducting grid.

Dear Electrotech,

This story is a complicated study of a powerful and fantistic lost technology. But, if any of us (me included) are to sort out the useful facts from the mythology and the bullcrap we need to understnd who E.V.Gray was and what his intent was.

With out going into all the historical references and interviews with family members I shall just cut to the chase. I'll be glad to back up any of these statements with the support sources.

1. The Tesla connection is well know because of Dr. Lindemann's fine book on the subject that was written in 2000. A lot has been rediscovered since then. The only tentative connection is what Gray told Joe Gordon in 1987 about the source of this technology - Gray didn't come up with it on his own nor did he even understand it or develop it.

The technical problem when comparing this circuit with the Desktop oscillator forn the 1893 to 1897 period is that huge shunt diode that Gray has across his main storage capacitor. That diode kills any possible form of RF or any other oscillation. Dr. Tesla circuits are works of art that operate in excess of 50 MHz. There may be some common themes in the impact of the stressed dielectric but the methods used to acheived its effects are differant.

All these discussions about resonate circuits and different frequencies are going to have to deal with that diode, at least for the operation of the primary circuit. What happens in the secondary circuit is still open for discussion, but you can't get much AC action in the secondary if the primary is one long DC pulse, even with the limited coupling of an induction coil.

I favor the huge DC pulse approach becasue I think the non-classical action takes place in the arc plasma and how it interacts with the dielectric. An AC arc and a DC arc are are worlds apart in what kind of chemistry takes place. An AC arc neutralizes all the ions on the reverse flow, so all you get is heat. A DC arc is what producde all the interesting effects (at least more of them).

2. Gray never worked for GE and never went to Army engineering school. He was an uneducated high school drop out who was an auto-body fender man (and a good one) all his life. According to his technician who worked for him from 1980 to 1988 "Gray didn't know Ohm's Law". Gray was a natural born promoter who should have been a preacher (his son Dr. James Gray became a minister). Gray knew how to put on a show and bring in the investor money, He didn't have much of a clue as to how the technology actually worked. At best, he may have known about 75% of the actual circuit needed to produce these effects.

3. We don't know just what Poppof provided Gray. I'm sure it wasn't a complete OU system. I propose it was a novel popping coil apparatus that used the electrostatic repulsion of dielectric discs plus the magnetic repulsion. I'm sure it operated from a automotoive ignitin coil. Marvin Cole hit upon the idea of taking this process and making a motor out of it. The OU properties were discovered later. The whole project started out as a high efficiency DC pulse motor that, at the time, did have some market potential.


4. All of Martin's fine photographic work is just the kind of investigation we need to dig for clues in to this technology. Your ideas about the function of the bifilar coils are real good proposals as to how the real Marvin Cole Electrostatic Generator might have harvested the electrostatic pulse. If you look at the end of that 4" coil form you will notice that it is compose of two different colored layers thus suggesting a hybrid construction.

5. Gray didn't design anything. Every thing that was ever built was designed and built by hired technicians or outside fabricators. The real OU break through was sone by Marvin Cole in 1964 when gray was out of town. Gray did rack the company truck to house all the motor demonstration carts. He was a good welder and might have made some of the motor mounting stands.

If Gray is associated with some "space drive with which positive rays would be sent through a super conducting grid" I would certainly like to study the source and add that information to my master Gray timeline.

6. What is under that black tape of the FFF is certainly an area of investigation in its own right.

Well carry on, I shall be aborad for the next month.

Spokane1

[Electrotek]

Dear Electrotech,

The technical problem when comparing this circuit with the Desktop oscillator forn the 1893 to 1897 period is that huge shunt diode that Gray has across his main storage capacitor. That diode kills any possible form of RF or any other oscillation. Dr. Tesla circuits are works of art that operate in excess of 50 MHz. There may be some common themes in the impact of the stressed dielectric but the methods used to acheived its effects are differant.

All these discussions about resonate circuits and different frequencies are going to have to deal with that diode, at least for the operation of the primary circuit. What happens in the secondary circuit is still open for discussion, but you can't get much AC action in the secondary if the primary is one long DC pulse, even with the limited coupling of an induction coil.

If Gray is associated with some "space drive with which positive rays would be sent through a super conducting grid" I would certainly like to study the source and add that information to my master Gray timeline.

Spokane1

I hadn't heard of the comparisons between the (perhaps unpublished) coil popping technique and Tesla's desk top oscillator. I mentioned mass resonance because this is something I can hear in the arc. The foil shaking back and forth lengthwise between the two thin edges. And the two sequential musical notes in the arc, coming from the bifilar component as if different length springs were being shaken lengthwise.

At some point I'll dig through my files and forward you the name of his friend who mentioned the space drive, and said that Gray was fond of calling the Tube "his inverter". But Gray wasn't that dumb. As I understand the time line he discovered how to "split the positive" in 1958, and said he understood lightning.

Have a nice trip.

PS: No ch in tek

edit: I haven't seen such a big diode in the Black Boxes.

[Electrotek]

Radial Sparks





Several years ago when I first published my three point discharge circuit, I mentioned that the Puff Spark has a secondary effect which causes it to blow off to the side if the two primary electrodes aren't straight in line. The arc flings out on the side which subtends the larger angle. Now that I discovered the radial pickup effect, I'm thinking that a successful replication of Gray's "converter tube" will need to include a perpendicular pickup electrode connected to the grids. Similar to Ghst's carbon tube, although I don't know if he ever added the grids.

I don't see this pickup electrode in Gray's pictures and that may be why the tube wasn't working yet at the time of the video.

[Electrotek]

Static Electric Solenoid

I've got three defibrillator inductors, a small round one rated at 5kV and two larger 7.5kV D-shaped units, one of which has an extra winding. The two winding inductor, which is thicker, also has a hole through the center. This is the one I used for my initial experiments back when I first discovered the three electrode Puff Spark.

One thing I noticed early on is that a wooden dowel rod is affected by the inductor's field. When placed through the hole, the dowel rod snaps towards axial alignment with the coil when the three electrode circuit is discharged. Since the dowel is a non magnetic material, I concluded at the time that the circuit was producing some type of static energy effect. So I tried using two dowel rods, with a few turns of wire around each of them, to check for static repulsion caused by the Puff Spark energy. But, as I've said in the past, I never could get any repulsion like this. In one article Hackenberger mentions that only 4 or 5% of the motor's power came from the static. I'm now thinking there's more to the static than just the coiled wire.

Of course, I have gotten plenty of repulsion from the effect, using magnetic coils. I've shown this on this forurm, using two 4 1/2 pound MOT's.

[Electrotek]

Micro Puff

My basic Puff Spark circuit has a branch with a capacitor in series with an inductor, with this branch discharging through an L shaped electrode pattern. The cap and coil are connected to the short end of the L. (This is in contradistinction to videos I've seen on YouTube in which the grid spacing is the LONG SIDE of the L.) Also, my circuit uses the supply's return connection as the other point of the L's short end. Otherwise it won't work using the resistance of the arc to split the positive. When the arc is present between the long side electrodes, some of the potential also goes through the coil/cap branch, charging the capacitor through the L's second, shorter arc.

Once the capacitor is charged the power can even be switched off, with the branch being discharged by short circuiting it, still producing the Puff Spark. This is what I can do with a bug zapper I got from Harbor Freight for $3.49.

Electronic Fly Swatter

This has a circuit board about the size of a D cell battery which uses a voltage multiplier ladder to step up the 3V input enough to spark when an insect shorts out the grid wires. This will produce a really little Puff Spark when discharged through a MOT's secondary coil. I don't know what Joules are involved, but it's probably one or less. I think this effect can be produced with any amount of minimal energy.



By inertiatek at 2010-05-27

[boguslaw]

The radial energy pressure waves are close to the surface of the inductor and are picked up by the 1/2" of the wire sticking under the edge of the bottom of the inductor.

Do you have any pictures ? Do you plan to replicate that setup using exactly the same components (but without disassembling original one ) ? Is this possible to replicate ? Is MOC capacitor required ? What is the energy amount stored in capacitor ? I think you should analyse this circuit deeper.

[Electrotek]

Do you have any pictures ? Do you plan to replicate that setup using exactly the same components (but without disassembling original one ) ? Is this possible to replicate ? Is MOC capacitor required ? What is the energy amount stored in capacitor ? I think you should analyse this circuit deeper.

Here's a picture of my Static Energy Solenoid (ie. Puff Spark Setup), with the Bakelite encased inductor at the top. I'm going to replicate the radial pickup when I get the transformer's pulse rate up. (edit: the pickup wire goes straight up from the middle on the back.) I'll check and see if it works without the capacitor. But when I turn it off there's nothing in the cap. I'm sure you know Tesla's single wire circuit, but also see patent #6104107 and application #20050173990. This is the third such circuit I've discovered. The alternating densities is similar to Avramenko's discussion, but he uses two wires to the inductor, which shorts to itself. Mine, with one wire, stays open.

I really liked that big yellow diode. I forgot yesterday that I've got a circuit which uses my CSET tube as a capacitor that is really hard on diodes.


By inertiatek at 2010-05-27

[Electrotek]

Low Voltage Anode

Here's a grounded diode circuit similar to what is used in a MW oven, with the same diode polarity. Due to the diode's voltage drop I'm reading a little over 7.5V at the the LV anode electrode with a car battery in the circuit. In operation the capacitor's grid electrode sparks continuously with the LV anode. When enough charge builds up on the cap a Puff Spark is produced between the primary arc itself and the HV electrode. Since the grid sparks with the LV electrode first, both rod electrodes have to be inside the tube when using a CSET- like assembly for the capacitor. Using .7uF at 6kV, this is a rapid fire circuit, producing 3 or 4 flash overs per second.


By inertiatek at 2010-05-28

[Electrotek]

Switched Low Voltage

In the Cannady interview, that observer said that Gray had a diode connected to the battery and that there was a spark gap. This isn't precisely the way these components are connected in the patent's circuit but I tried this lay out anyway. In order to switch the Low Voltage anode, I moved my three point electrodes up, so that the capacitor's electrode sparks with the transformer's High Voltage wire. This version of my circuit produces a slightly different effect: the Puff Spark shoots from the 'grid' electrode to the LV anode. There is NO discharge between the 'rod' electrodes. And the Puff Spark takes the longest path, rather than the shortest path as with most versions of my circuit. This longer arc means an Overshoot Switch might be needed to protect the diode if a tube around a central wire is used for the capacitor.

Also, circuits with a diode at the secondary's center tap should not be grounded to an earth ground. When there's a HV spark in the circuit, I can pull a round white spark from the center tap to earth ground, with the transformer sounding like it's loaded down. Safety first, don't touch ANY wires when a HV circuit is running, not even on the "LV" side.


By inertiatek at 2010-05-29

[Electrotek]

Switched Effect

I've gradually been migrating my basic three point discharge circuit to get it to match what Gray shows in his patent. At this point, I've moved the trigger switch to the battery side of the diode, although not in series. With this, when the two 'rod electrode' points are positioned close enough to arc, the arc will go out while the switch is closed. With this spacing, the arc also goes out while the 'grid' capacitor is charging - with the switch open - as long as the charging arc is the shorter side of the L. So I give the 'grid' capacitor time to charge, then close the switch. The Puff Spark is then triggered when the switch opens, as this produces a spark between the 'rod' electrodes and this arc transfers towards the 'grid' point. One, two. I have to be careful that I don't get any bounce when I close the switch or the effect will appear to be triggered upon switch closure.

This allows me to switch a pretty big Puff Spark, using my 16uF cap on the 'grid' side. This cap can actually be on either end of the inductor. But there are a lot of variables with my primitive test setup. Sometimes the discharge will "bang" instead of "pht", as if the trigger arc's magnetic field is defeating the inductive time constant on the load side. Perhaps a type of pulse compression?

I also tied the trigger cap straight to ground and put the switch under the bottom diode, in series. I did something ONE TIME which didn't make a spark but it really slammed the inductor down against the plywood bench top it's sitting on, with a really loud low frequency thud. Still more work ahead.

Please remember to acknowledge my name if discussing my three point circuit, for MY gratitude. Otherwise all I get is virtue from Open Sourcing.


By inertiatek at 2010-05-30

[Jules Tresor]

Very interesting and impressive experiments Electrotek.
Do you have magnets around the spark gap as mean to shorten the spark ?
If not, what are you counting on to reduce the spark duration ?

[Electrotek]

Very interesting and impressive experiments Electrotek.
Do you have magnets around the spark gap as mean to shorten the spark ?
If not, what are you counting on to reduce the spark duration ?

With this circuit, the only magnetic field is the postulated field around the trigger arc. I have shown tests in the past where the switch tube was inside the hole through the inductor. This produced an audibly shorter discharge accompanied by a measurable increase in coil repulsion height. Also, the 'slow' quiet discharge turns into a loud "blam" if the three point electrodes are lying on the side of the inductor used in the discharge circuit.

Interestingly but off topic, a candle flame goes out with an instant "blam" when I send a Puff Spark through it. A negative inductance?

[Electrotek]

Diode Spliter

Here's another switch circuit which uses the potential across a diode. A cap placed in series with the switch WILL NOT charge, so it's mixing AC and DC.


By inertiatek at 2010-05-30