Gray Tube Replication

[Guest]

resistance, amps, energy

I've been thinking about the CDI resistors as well...

With a 150w inverter supplying 1.25A of power, that equates to 96ohms
of resistance, so in order to charge up the CDI cap with .5A it would
have to be increased to 240ohms, and they(it) would need to be rated
at approximately 60W, correct?



An example would be if I used one of my 250V 22uF caps... I've really got no
idea what one of these would require in the way of amperage to hold a proper
charge with the motor firing at 2000rpm. If I use 240ohms and it turns out
to be too much, is there a danger of having it melt or explode?

The following calculations will show that such a capacitor will contain
687.5 Joules of energy if fully charged, equating to the same amount of 120v
watts drawing 5.73A! Surely this is not a true representation of what amount
of power would need to be applied. Mysterious.

[Guest]

....a bit of solutions

[Guest]

It seems that a 2000rpm motor with a full 250v 22uf cdi unit will
require around 200watts of 120v to sustain its speed, needing resistance
amounting to 72 ohms.

[Spokane1]

CEST Short Historical review

Some interesting details about the history of Grays stuff:

So, the big question is: Did the first prototypes made by Marvin Cole use a CSET or not? Kelly says not, but is he correct?

Dear Lamare,

Here is what I haved from the fragmented E.V. Gray history I've collected:

The Pulse Motors

1. When the E-series pulse motors were first brought out of storage in 1980 to be reworked by Mr. Gray's 3rd technician (Richard II) they are reported by Mr. Nelson Schlaft (soon to be the 4th technician)to have been controlled by Thyratrons triggered by smaller vacuum tubes. Now these motors were from the mid 60's. Gray (jn 1973) didn't even know what a thyratron was - according to John Bedini. A lot of time was then spent on attempting to add additional EMI shielding to these old systems using 1/2" EMT electrical tubing.

2. Mr Schlaft considered the Thyratron systems a waste of time since the intent was to develop an automotive engine. The vibration would have surely destroyed the filiments in the vacuum tubes - or so Mr. Schlaft thought. He removed all of the Thyratrons and replaced them with Ignitrons which are probably just as vibration sensitive as the vacuum tubes, but this is what survived to modern times (but never made it to an automobile). In doing so he destroyed and lost the design intent of the original Thyratron switching system.

The Free-Energy Engines

1. To the best of current evidence the only engine that ever used a CEST type device in operation was the failed EMA6, as shown in the Jan 9, 1976 stock holders meething.

2. There are a few photos from the GD collection that show the same modified EMA6 with the CEST devices removed and replaced with additional white plastic "donuts" in the commutator section.

3. Soon after this retro-fit the FCC came calling (1977) to kindly remove the source of the broadband RF EMI (with out a substantial antenna) and insure that it be immediatly destroyed for just the customary $10K fine and potential prison sentence. This suggests that Mr. Hackenberger got something right to cause this kind of energy emission - but didn't realize the powerful EM signiture he had created. This is why Gray was far more aware of EMI in the future. Keep in mind the CEST's were not part of this unfortunate (or fortunate) event - at least to the best of my knowlege.

4. After that, only one additional Free-Energy Engine was ever built (the EMA7 aka the "Blue" Engine) and we know nothing about its original construction other than the one photo captured from the 1986 video). It to had been convertered to an Ignitron switching system in 1980, just like all of the surviving Pulse Motors.

Additional Information:

In the entire decade that Mark Gray worked for his father as an assistant (1978 - 1988) only one CSET device was ever built and its function was for the sole purpose of the promotion videos. It was never connected to anything, tested in any fashion or used for any other application. The glass cylindar was a replacement enclosure for a common Coleman camp lanturn. The huge light green colored plastic end blocks were fabricated by a Boise, ID machine shop where Gray Sen. groused over the cost.

In the 1986 promotion video this device was demonstrated with intermittant bursts of blue arcs that were produced at about one second intervals. Loud concurrent pops are heard in the background. According to Mark Gray this "CEST" was connected directly to the 5KV-DC 50KVA power supply and pulsed by an onboard timer that was part of this "Trigger Cart". No other circuitry was involved.


Take from these tid-bits what you can. I have my own opinions and judgements but they are completly meaningless until I have some reliable test data that others can use and reproduce on the bench.

Best of luck to all of you researchers who are exploring an OU system with a fixed distance electrode aapproach. Keep in mind that Richard Hackenberger specifically states, in his longer Engineering report, that kinetic energy is a required input for this process to function. (But, he didn't say why) He also states that in addition the combined impact of an electromagnetic and electrostatic field are needed as well. Richard is starting to sound like Stan Deao and his UFO theories. (Which I kind of like)

I whole heartedly agree that the unique physics of a DC arc is one of the foundations of this technology. What every we can learn from fixed or dynamic pulsed DC arc systems will help us all. Who knows one of us might get lucky.

Best of luck to all of us.

Spokane 1

[GreenPowa87]

hello everyone, im planing to build E Gray's power supply, and add a 6-12 solenoid Teal's ''aeroplane engine'' with tinned mag. wire (J.Newman discovered 3x stronger field)
(radial allightment of coils in relation to shaft)

as far i have:
12v automotive batt (willing to add spare 1)
400w dc to ac converter
400 watt HID lamp transformer with ignitor (4-5kv ~3A dc?) and microwave transformer
and ive got 3x 10uf 5kva capacitors
i do understand tube principle but have no idea what resistance and what diodes should i use.

Cheers!

[Guest]

resistance, plasma ignition

That's an intriguing motor, I'm unfamiliar with how they are
constructed... unless you are referring to what is commonly thought
of as a Newman Motor design with the coils above and below
the extents the magnetic driveshaft.

I've found that the manner in which wirewound power resistors are
connected in series allows each of them to dissipate a certain amount
of energy depending on the supply voltage and their ohm value.
The lower your total ohm value, the quicker your plasma discharge
capacitor(s) will recharge.

The amperage rating of your 120V input diode must comply with
however much your resistors are drawing.

[Aaron]

experiments

Pranav & Geotron,

How are the experiments? I've been really busy and haven't
responded lately.

[Guest]

getting plasma, planning hv charger for LV side

It turns out that the dual adjust HV ignition coil driver circuit
works quite well on a mwave transformer to get a promising amount
of current flowing with the use of multiple transistors connected
in parallel - currently 235V (1.7A or better with 4).

The scr diode 2n690 is what I've found to use, although getting it
to work on my initial build was a bit confusing. Next I will see if using
the series resistor voltage sink divider will provide results.

On the cdi module I had 300ohms of wirewound 20ohm 15w and 10ohm 10w,
and the 22uf cap was charging to around 150 in under a second while
a solid reading of ~50v through the other components (3A diodes) was
present, as well as when removing a number of the resistors...

Once the inverter decided to become a little nonfunctioning I went
with the mwave transformer and transistors. With .9ohm:8.4ohm
transformer sitting alongside it to capture the AC output, it might
have not been hooked up correctly because there was no reading on
its output.

Anyway, this is the plasma discharge, same distance to ground
even through a waiting induction coil with a 250v 22uf.


( captured with smplayer's multiple frame capture "shift-d" )

[Aaron]

@geotron

Ok, that is quite a gap. Plasma looks pretty white instead of greenish.

Anyway, did the inductor give a good pulse - enough to push or pull a
magnet?

It is faint but it looks like there is a single spark streamer from the
perpendicular rod to the long horizontal rod.

Do you have a diagram of this particular experiment setup?

[Guest]

I did not notice that until you mentioned it - the faint little
spark streamer. The other end of that electrode was completely
disconnected. Another thing odd was that upon first connecting
up the inductor coil (obtained from a 15w fluoro ballast), the
initial plasma spark that it threw was all orangey and ragged,
then subsequently it began conforming to what is shown with the
solid white. The entire thing is being contained in a pieced
together acrylic housing - the only stationary electrode is the
short LV one, so the other two are not completely sealed off.

I've held a small 1/4in steel bar near the coil when manually
pulsing it with no discernable effect. Due to monitoring the
voltage across the ignitor-caps with wires too close to one thing
or another it has fragged my DMM, although I've got a 5000ohm/volt
analog-style backup, and another digital one shouldn't be too far
off. With the entire pulse signaler complete and working fine
with the coil driver and mwave transformer, I can't really think
of why I'd need another digital meter right away in order to finish
it... in any case, this was my setup for the pic shown. I have
since added a second capacitor for a total of (2) 250v 22uf in series,
and have noticed the 'thickness' of the spark is proportionatly reduced.



The following is what I am currently planning to setup in order
to get the SCR portion of it to work. I don't claim to be fully versed
in their operation, but have found upon testing them for resistance that
flow is being allowed in the foward and reverse directions with a short
delay - anyway, does this seem right?

[Aaron]

Geotron's Gray experiment

Geotron,

Diagram looks good on the SCR I think.

As long as the cap there gets to go to a low
enough voltage or 0, the scr can shut off.
Otherwise, it will stay stuck open. I'm not an
expert on SCR's but this has been my experience
and is why if I used an inverter or straight wall
power to charge that cap that I had to use
1/2 bridge to give it long enough off time.

The sparking to an object that isn't connected
to anything is typical with high voltage.

Are you basically getting that blast from nothing
more than a CDI on the front being discharged
over a gap into an inductor back to ground?

[Guest]

Correct, as you state and with a 30KV diode from the (+) terminal
to the HV output. It has me wondering about whether this might be
an opportunity in which to see what kind of permeability different
insulator dielectrics would have towards it - like having both
electrodes face-to-face against a pane of glass.

If it would jump through a small piece of glass, this could be
something that would enable the 3rd rod (normally the mesh tube)
to be positioned on the HV-side so when the CDI plasma ignites
it will be initially drawn onto the LV rod, and then once the
diode(s) close it would have to go all the way backwards and then
find its way through the glass... Then again with the awesome
results you've already shown with the 3rd point nearer the LV side,
its difficult to think what further gain could be had from doing so.

Once I get all my modules put back together (oscillator, coil driver,
electrode box) and hooked up to the mot and cdi unit, I'll give it
another go with the SCR... with my fourth DMM on the way this will
give me a time to focus on how to keep them safe from damage and
tend to some reading.

The digital interruptor on the lefthand side took a little tumble
recently, so until I've properly metered it again its case is closed.

[Aaron]

Geotron's Gray Experiment comments

Geotron,

Awesome! Then your plasma ignition front side seems to be working
correctly and your coil HV definitely seems to be the + polarity since
you are getting the plasma with your diodes in that position.

Is it a really loud snap?

Also, if you spray very fine atomized tap water mist on it, it should grow
in intensity and get much louder and brighter.

Anyway, with just the front side plasma ignition, there won't be much
punch in that inductor but your circuit is all correct from what I see.

If you have a separate power supply like a variac thru a bridge, you can
charge a "booster cap" on that LV rod side and with diodes leaving the
LV rod booster cap - hv diode string of course.

This is what I mean:



So what happens is your plasma discharge from the front side igntion
slams into the LV rod with another cap and reverse diode. So instead of
just starting with a HV discharge into that LV rod, you're starting with
a plasma ignition discharge into the LV rod. In a way, this compensates
for not having a monster cap discharge from the front side.

Anyway, with the 3 point rod spacing as shown, the plasma ignition
discharge is first forced to jump the LV rod with a charged up cap
there opposing it. Diode shuts off, ignition plasma has nowhere else to
go but over the gap to the inductor rod.

Gap is ionized plus the negative suction created causes that LV cap
to discharge over gap following it. Basically same concept as plasma
ignition but scaled up.

If you do this, that inductor will give one heck of a pulse to repel or
attract a magnet on a rotor and you have it.

If you have a LV booster cap like 400v 330uf or so, you can charge it
with a variac through a full bridge. Start it off at low voltage and get the
plasma ignition triggering at whatever speed. Slowly bring the voltage of
the booster cap up and you'll see the blast at the gap going to the
inductor getting bigger and bigger and of course the inductor pulse gets
stronger and stronger.

With a scope, you can see the plasma ignition cap and/or the booster
cap, the discharge rate of the cap is way faster than it is "supposed" to
be in my opionion the reason is because it is discharging into a negative
resistance - the suction caused by the negative suction caused by the
blasts being instantly turned away by the diodes and forced to go
elsewhere.

So the cap doesn't discharge into a 0 to positive impedance, it is being
pulled into a negative impedance and this pulls the "charge" from the
cap at a rate faster than ambient so you get some serious time
compression happening.

Anyway, notice the inductor rod is closer to the LV rod than the HV
rod. If it is closer to the HV rod, the plasma ignition will discharge there
first and you don't get the LV cap discharging as planned. Being further
away, plasma ignition is forced to discharge to the LV rod since that is the
closest and when diode shuts off, then it has nowhere to go but the
inductor rod.

I'm excited to see your progress on this! Looking forward to Pranav
getting the results too!

[Aaron]

diodes on LV rod

NOTE: When you use a booster cap, on that boost cap LV rod, you
will want a serious diode or a serious string of diodes to handle the joules
discharge from that side.

I'd recommend 20-30 diode string of 6A100's. 6 amp 1000v diodes. About
20 cents or so each from Mouser.com. Those have been very good for
me and held up even with 1200-1300 volts at 20uf or so as my booster
cap side.

[Guest]

The low voltage side capacitors I have are 250v 22uf, while there's
also a .7uf 2000v mwave cap. It may be they can work in unison as
a voltage supply and booster at the same time...

With four 22uf's in the multiplier, I'm thinking they ought to have
roughly 5uf between them, and with 200v out of the transformer each
would have to be wired in series with another to surpass the input
voltage by twice - equating into 2.75uf if my math is right.

Then there's the secondary transformer way of charging the LV side
that was giving me difficulty earlier.