Gray Tube Replication

[Spokane1]

Electrode Metals

Mr. McKay, how about using materials other than copper as electrode (iron, steel) and see if the spikes disappear ? Thanks.

Wicaksono

Dear Wicaksono,

I have experimented with: Iron, Brass, Copper, Zinc, Silver, Nickel, Carbon, Aluminum, and Gold.

They all work the same in my experimental setup within +/- 5%

So far the spikes only dissapear when inductors are added on each side of the spark gap. This is like the design of the Sir Oliver Lodge Wireless Transmitter or the Tesla Table Top Oscillator.

Mark McKay

[Spokane1]

Platinum Electrodes

I just found in metal work function table that platinum has the highest photoelectric energy threshold. If the spikes are the results of photoelectric effect, the by using metals with higher photoelectric energy threshold will result in less of spikes energy. Please check it with platinum electrode, thanks.

Wicaksono

Dear Wicaksono,

The cost of Platinum electrodes is beyond my financial reach.

Until the National Science Foundation (NSF) comes calling with a big fat research funding check in hand (a small chance of that happening) I shall have to go with the metals I've tested. There might be a few more I can check out if I find suitable samples (Iodine crystals, Cadmimum, Selanimum, Calcium Metal, Lead, Bismith, Tungston, Titanium) but I think this covers the bulk of the products available to the hobbyist.

Mark McKay

[Wicaksono]

voltage spike from capacitive coupling

Dear Wicaksono,

I have experimented with: Iron, Brass, Copper, Zinc, Silver, Nickel, Carbon, Aluminum, and Gold.

They all work the same in my experimental setup within +/- 5%

So far the spikes only dissapear when inductors are added on each side of the spark gap. This is like the design of the Sir Oliver Lodge Wireless Transmitter or the Tesla Table Top Oscillator.

Mark McKay

I just remember that I have seen something similar like the oscilloscope voltage spike before, I think it is caused by rf capacitive coupling from the gap to oscilloscope. You can try to minimize voltage spike by changing voltage divider resistor
10M - channel2 - 10K
to
5M - channel2 - 10K - GND - 5M
Disconnect the scope ground from NST electrode and connect it to 10K resistor so both NST electrode will be floating from scope ground, please see if there is a voltage spike reduction.

Wicaksono

[kalena555]

Hi, I'm new to this forum but have been following this particular thread for awhile. I have also done a lot of research into the gray tube and teslas unidirectional pulsed dc RE effect. If I may make a suggestion, teslas stated that the radiant "shockwaves" so to speak, pass threw all mater conductive or not. So to those of you with working CSETs I'm wondering what would happen if you were to insulated the grid?
According to teslas theory you should still get grid output if it is indeed the same effect. Just a thought I've had for awhile, if there is no grid output then definately something else is happening in this circuit.
Just a thought...

[kalena555]

My apologies for grammatical errors posting from my phone at this time and auto prediction sometimes screws up

[Spokane1]

Improved voltage divider

I just remember that I have seen something similar like the oscilloscope voltage spike before, I think it is caused by rf capacitive coupling from the gap to oscilloscope. You can try to minimize voltage spike by changing voltage divider resistor
10M - channel2 - 10K
to
5M - channel2 - 10K - GND - 5M
Disconnect the scope ground from NST electrode and connect it to 10K resistor so both NST electrode will be floating from scope ground, please see if there is a voltage spike reduction.

Wicaksono

Dear Wicaksono,

This sounds like a good idea. I shall try it as soon as I can chase down the right size resistors.

Thanks

[Spokane1]

Gray Technology vs. Tesla Radiant Energy

Hi, I'm new to this forum but have been following this particular thread for awhile. I have also done a lot of research into the gray tube and teslas unidirectional pulsed dc RE effect. If I may make a suggestion, teslas stated that the radiant "shockwaves" so to speak, pass threw all mater conductive or not. So to those of you with working CSETs I'm wondering what would happen if you were to insulated the grid?
According to teslas theory you should still get grid output if it is indeed the same effect. Just a thought I've had for awhile, if there is no grid output then definately something else is happening in this circuit.
Just a thought...

Dear kalena555,

Many of us have speculated on a possible correlation between Dr. Tesla's experiments with disruptive discharges (1892) and his radiant energy experiments (1907) as described by Gerry Vasalatos in his book "Lost Science" and his other book.

However, I don't believe that anyone has proved that these two reported seperate phenomena are one in the same - though it seems they might be. Eric Dollard and Peter Lindemann are the only ones thay have developed a setup that demonstrated the radiant energy phenomena. However neither Eric, Peter, or anyone else has replicated this two decade old important demonstration. So we are really in the dark as to how "radiant energy" is created, much less as to how to measure it. there are a lot of clues in Dr. Tesla's writings but we have a long way to go to even begin to duplicate his work.

Now, is the Gray technology also a "Radiant Energy" process? We don't know. Peter Lindemann made this thesis the foundation of his book "The Cold Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity", and it sounded really good. But, technically we haven't proven anything - yet.

The unfortunate fact is that no one has constructed repeatable apparatus (at least in the public domain) that demonstrates:

1. disruptive arc shock waves that penatrate dielectrics and conductive shields.

2. all of the Tesla radiant energy claimed phenomena as proposed by Tom Bearden

3. The E.V. Gray technology

So it is really hard to take what we think we know from one phenomena (based on Gerry's speculations) and make engineering judgements that applies to another phenomena that we know even less about.

If you think that insulated grids for the CEST is the way to go - then have at it. But, you will have to build and test the equipment yourself. The rest of us are spending our precious time and limited money chasing our own pet ideas. And there is always more wild ideas than what we have money or time to explore.

It is unfortunate, but we don't even has enough understanding about the physics of the phenomena we are searching for to even begin a useful and constructive discussion on the subject - like two structural engineers might discuss the construction of a bridge. About all we have are interesting speculations.

Never the less, I firmly believe that Gray and company hit upon something powerful and important.

Mark McKay

[kalena555]

Dear Mr. Mckay,

Thanks for the reply, currently in the process of building a CSET as well as another test setup to try and achieve the radiant event.

Tube itself will be simplistic however will be using magnetic quenching to get short, unidirectional pulses. I'll post updates as I make progress. My idea for simple insulation of grids would be to have the copper mesh/tube outside the acrylic tube and see if I get grid output. Mind you this is after I get the circuit working first.
I'm a firm believer in getting the circuit to work first before making changes so once I get a working setup ill keep you all updated.

[Spokane1]

The CEST History

Dear Mr. Mckay,

Thanks for the reply, currently in the process of building a CSET as well as another test setup to try and achieve the radiant event.

Tube itself will be simplistic however will be using magnetic quenching to get short, unidirectional pulses. I'll post updates as I make progress. My idea for simple insulation of grids would be to have the copper mesh/tube outside the acrylic tube and see if I get grid output. Mind you this is after I get the circuit working first.
I'm a firm believer in getting the circuit to work first before making changes so once I get a working setup ill keep you all updated.

Dear kalena555,

If you would like, drop me an email at mmckay@simplexgrinnell.com and I shall send you a 50 page history of the CEST device as reference material. Of course this includes all my own speculations which you can disregard. This document is in Word format and includes several photos and drawings.

If you are going to explore the CEST device then you may as well be aware of all that we know about it - which isn't a whole lot.

Mark McKay

[kalena555]

Dear Mark McKay,

That is very kind of you, I will send you an email for the info. Also I'm not going to disregard your theories at all. I feel like most people try to change circuits in replication attempts before they get a working device, granted most times there isn't enough info in public domain to actually reproduce a device. With the CEST circuit we on this forum are lucky to have someone like you who has already built a working model.

My plan is to get a working unit first then (and only then) make changes to test certain theories. The first of which is the insulated grid. The second idea I had was coming up with a way to convert the grid output into normal electricity so it can be measured, possibly using teslas patent with the insulated metal plate charging caps then to ground and a switching circuit to discharge those caps to step down transformer. I can't for the life of me remember the patent number but my idea is the replace the elevated metal plate either tubes grid, what do you think?

[kalena555]

Bah my phones auto prediction again on my last sentence I meant to type replace the insulated metal plate with the grid output.

[Spokane1]

CEST Patent Material

Bah my phones auto prediction again on my last sentence I meant to type replace the insulated metal plate with the grid output.

Dear kalena555,

The patents that deal with the CEST (Converter Element Switching Tube) are to be found in patents 4-595-975 (granted June 1986) and 4-661-747 (granted April 1987).

I can't be a whole lot of help technically on this subject since my personal conclusion (for the time being) is that the CEST was a failed HV switching device that was replaced with a Thyratron/Ignitron combination. Gray took this idea (in 1985) and created some bogus patents (above) as a means to intise his investors that were putting money into his Caymon Island account.

But don't take my word for it. Review the history and come to your own conclusion. Everything I know is in the report and I would gladly change my mind if new data becomes available.

The CEST may have been a failed attempt at one improvement, but the overall and still hidden technology is impressive. It's just that we don't know what the "Kernel" is.

I maintain that is has two vital components (among others):

1. An Arc (not the one in the CEST device)

2. A lead-Acid Battery being used as an active component and not as a power supply voltage source.


About 30 people that I know of have built CEST replications of various types and quality. The only novel observation so far has been Green Arcs that Aaron has produced - but zip in the way of OU. Obviously, not all the information was disclosed in the patent documents and several intelligent researchers have not been able to figure out the missing pieces. I maintain that it never worked in the first place.

Recall that nice color photo or E.V. Gray standing over his EMA6 Engine at a large press conference in 1976. Well, that engine only produced 2 HP. Mr. Hackenberger finally got it running right about 6 months later WITH THE CEST DEVICES REMOVED.

No doubt the CEST device is an interesting component and it has inspired several people to make their own. But the history that I have been able to extract paints a far different picture.

Pardon me for rambling on this subject. This whole thread is suppose to be about the CSET and here I am bad mouthing it (again). But as far as I know this is the only forum that has any active posts about any E.V. Gray technology. The rest of the sites that I know of have long since died becasue the CEST has failed to deliver.

Mark McKay

[kalena555]

Dear Mark,

The bit of info of getting the motor to run without the tubes is new info to me. So much learn XD. Well now I'm gonna scale back my test setup a bit, I'm on limited funds (aren't we all) but I still will build it just to test it. It's an interesting device regardless and if nothing it will teach me a lot. My experienced in the FE is quite limited in terms of actually building circuits (joules thief mostly and working on a solid state state ssg type circuit). Theory is all well and good but until I start more projects I won't learn more so I'm diving head first into this XD

[Spokane1]

The Phinney Device (What the CEST was copied from)

Dear Mark,

The bit of info of getting the motor to run without the tubes is new info to me. So much learn XD. Well now I'm gonna scale back my test setup a bit, I'm on limited funds (aren't we all) but I still will build it just to test it. It's an interesting device regardless and if nothing it will teach me a lot. My experienced in the FE is quite limited in terms of actually building circuits (joules thief mostly and working on a solid state state ssg type circuit). Theory is all well and good but until I start more projects I won't learn more so I'm diving head first into this XD

Dear kalena555,

I shall also send you a chapter on where I think the CEST technology originally came from and what its real purpose was - but failed to accomplish its mission in this application.

Review the Pulse Engine Patent 3-890-548. check out the Reference patents. Go down to the bottom (or near bottom) of the list and download the Phinney patent. This device was developed in the LA area about the time Marvin Cole was improving his secret technology. It is a novel system to ignite jet engines and employs two power supplies - just like the Gray patent does. It also has two spark gaps.

Now this is something you can build and probably get to function as a HV switch. But, I wouldn't expect any OU from it.

I speculate that at the time the EMA4 was being developed it became apparent that the spark gap timing used in the much larger Engine was not preceise enough to maximize the avaliable energy. The jitter factor in striking arcs left too much to chance. At the speeds that the engine was operating this became a real bottle neck.

Cole needed a system or device that would allow much more preceise triggering. The only device available in early 1971 was a Thyratron, which would have worked just fine. Except it needed a huge amount of heater current to handle a large pulse. Cole needed the switching feature for just a brief moment about three times a revolution. The Thyratron consumes watts of power continuously. Since the engine did not generate electricity directly any additional strain on the battery would reduce the life that much more. An alternate device was needed.

In fact this is why John Bedini and his mentor Ron Cole (no relation to Marvin Cole) were invited into the Gray shop in the first place in 1973. Gray needed a HV switch and Mr. Hackenberger's experiance was with low voltage transistors. At the time Gray didn't know what a Thyratron was. I'm sure the real inventor did, but didn't employ them because of the energy overhead.

Be sure to have fun with your construction project. No mater how well it does or doesn't work you will add to your skill set to face more complex challenges down the road. Just don't give up your day job.

I won't be back to this computer until Monday. So if you send me that email I will be unable to respond until then.

Mark Mckay

[lamare]

Dear kalena555,

If you would like, drop me an email at mmckay@simplexgrinnell.com and I shall send you a 50 page history of the CEST device as reference material. Of course this includes all my own speculations which you can disregard. This document is in Word format and includes several photos and drawings.

Mark has sent me a collection of various documents, which I published with his permission at my site:
Directory contents of /pdf/Reference_Material/McKay_Gray_Material/

Enjoy!