Gray Tube Replication

[lighty]

Phase Conjugate symetry reversal can be accentuated by varying the width of each layer, in one set, in a random pattern, then reversing the random pattern - exactly or approximately - with the second set. This technique is best used with pancake coils, to keep the amount of wire in the two coils the same.

The mechanism of phase conjugation is pretty straightforward for the cylindrical coils but to be honest I'm perplexed in practical terms as how to apply randomization in pancake coils. I mean there isn't much you can do geometry wise and the space is limited. Could you please elaborate on that one?

[gmeat]

Passing thoughts

Hi Everyone,


I keep having this recurring thought with regards to the gray conversion tube that goes something like this.Bear in mind I have very limited electronics experience.Is it possible that we could have 2 transformers in this circuit with one being on one side of the conversion tube that we can have producing high voltage and on the other side of the conversion tube a 2nd transformer that produces low voltage BUT high amperage.This is just a thought that I wanted to pass along and I really dont know if this will even make sense to anyone but at least I let my thoughts be known .


-Gary

[Inquorate]

Welcome

@ spearmaster

Your tube looks great, have you fired it up yet??

@ gmeat - the only way to know is to try it... :-) when it comes to radiant energy, we're all amateurs!

[Beshires1]

Electrotek, Are you sure that the device to the left is a over-shoot device? It sure looks like the vertical CSET made with the lantern globe.
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5610/31kn7.jpg

[Spearmaster]

Inquorate: No, I'm waiting for my HV transformer to arrive. The small one sitting on the table there started popping loudly inside and I had to shut it down. Inside, all the components are potted, so I guess it's just toast. My brother is sending me both sides (+, -) of an x-ray tube HV transformer. It's serious overkill for this project, but I'll figure out some way of regulating it so that I can use it as a generic HV bench supply.

Electrotek: I'm gonna look up Thyratron and see what I find. Thanks.

Later,
Carl

[mlurye]

Can somebody explain to me? Why everybody trying to build exact replica of Gray's motor. When you can build smaller scale motor to proof the concept using 110V or 220V. And if it will work then go grand scale

[Jetijs]

what do you mean with "using 110v or 220v"?

[mlurye]

Jetis why do you need 5kV? If you are going lower scale just use smaller voltage. What so special about HV?

[Electrotek]

Pancakes

The mechanism of phase conjugation is pretty straightforward for the cylindrical coils but to be honest I'm perplexed in practical terms as how to apply randomization in pancake coils. I mean there isn't much you can do geometry wise and the space is limited. Could you please elaborate on that one?

This would involve a number of stacked pancake coils, wired in series, with two identical stacks. If, for instance you use five coils per stack (or as few as three), one coil would provide the reference size, for the number of turns. Each of the other coils in each stack would have less turns, based on subtracting different multiples of some small percentage of the reference layer's diameter. The slightly differing diameter coils, including the largest ones, are then stacked in a random order which is consistent in both stacks. Phase conjugation occurs when one of the stacks is inverted and placed in opposition to the other. And the two stacks can be merged if desired, after one is inverted.

If a higher form of energy is needed for the experiment, each pancake coil itself would be bifilar. Each of the series-tied coils in each stack are wired together in series. With this arrangement, it might be best if the two stacks are merged.

Chemelec presents a good system for winding the coils, inculding how to make them self supporting

My Coil Jig for Flat Coils

The pole pieces in Gray's White Motor embody reverse symetry.

[Aaron]

small scale

Jetis why do you need 5kV? If you are going lower scale just use smaller voltage. What so special about HV?

These voltages are needed for the effects of the tube. However, smaller scale in this project means not even having to make a motor - just pulsing a magnet on a pendulum from a coil powered by the grids is a scaled down proof of concept.

With a few hundred volts, you're not going to get a spark jumping like you want.

[mlurye]

Aaron you are correct but you need tube for high voltage motor with a lot of HP. And your explanation of the Gray's tube is very good, it is switching device (HV "transistor"). And pendulum in not a proof. Gray's motor is closer to the Adams motor with a little twist to it.

[Aaron]

Gray Tube Pendulum

I'll post a vid explaining what I'm trying to do - it should be apparent from the pic.



The red variac and is 20amps - way too much for this microwave transformer. I couldn't get the 4000v cap charged much over 1000...was current straining the source...need current limiting from the red variac.

Anyway, that isn't what I want to use anyway. I'll use ignition coils to charge the 4000v cap just like Gray used.

The gap is about 1mm or less so I need at least 3300 volts in the cap to jump that when the switch closes but at a little over 1000, it won't do that of course.

[lighty]

stacks is inverted and placed in opposition to the other. And the two stacks can be merged if desired, after one is inverted.

Actually this seems like a pretty good idea I never before considered.


Three more questions though.

When you're talking about connecting coils in series do you mean by connecting their geometrically respective parts (center of first one to center of second one and then outer edge of second one to the outer edge of the third one) or by connecting them in series in absolute way (center of first one to the outer edge of next one and then center of second one to outer edge of third one)?

Also, by merging two stack do you mean merging them by placing one stack on top of other or merging them in the sense of putting first layer of first stack then on top of it third layer of the second stack, then second layer of first stack to second layer of second stack and then finally third layer of the first stack to the first layer of the second stack?

And finally have you considered mutual capacitance and inductance introduced by placing two stacks on top of each other? I mean placing one flat coil on top of other will inevitable introduce significant capacitive coupling if not inductive one.

Again, thanks for introducing interesting concept.

[Electrotek]

Hi Everyone,


I keep having this recurring thought with regards to the gray conversion tube that goes something like this.Bear in mind I have very limited electronics experience.Is it possible that we could have 2 transformers in this circuit with one being on one side of the conversion tube that we can have producing high voltage and on the other side of the conversion tube a 2nd transformer that produces low voltage BUT high amperage.This is just a thought that I wanted to pass along and I really dont know if this will even make sense to anyone but at least I let my thoughts be known .


-Gary

This is a good idea, and I'm sure it'll work. Gray's patent says the size and spacing of the grids can be designed to work with other voltages.

[Electrotek]

Electrotek, Are you sure that the device to the left is a over-shoot device? It sure looks like the vertical CSET made with the lantern globe.
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5610/31kn7.jpg

Sorry, I should have said it's on the right.

http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/o...ctrical/31.jpg

It's hard to see the Tube itself (on top of the cabinet on the right) because of the adjacent components, but the yellow arc is visible.

Here's the view from around the corner, with the Switch barely visible on top, at the left:

http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/o...ctrical/32.jpg

In this picture, the Thyratron is in the center, with a heavy wire coming to the top. I haven't found the specific patent for this device yet, but in one ion tube I looked at, the anode is at the base of the cone, which would be the top in this case. This is consistent with the convention that the electron current flows against the arrow. So the heavy wire at the top must be coming from the battery's positive terminal. The output wire isn't visible, so it may be going down through the shelf.

Here's a better view of the CSET:

http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/o...ctrical/14.jpg

In this picture, I can see a terminal block at the bottom, between the legs on the right. It looks like a wire is coming up through a hole to this terminal, and from there it goes up to the bottom of the CSET housing. The wire is also barely visible to the left of the front leg. This wire is probably coming from the bottom of the Thyratron, which is the cathode. I can also see the heavy white wire going to the Overshoot Switch (probably from the motor). It seems that John Bedini shows the diode polarity correctly. And probably the Overshoot Switch electrodes, as well.

It's interesting that there seems to be a metal disc on top of the CSET's base plate. If so, then the three vertical supports for the outer grid are grounded to the input arc electrode. This is consistent with the Imris' patent (#3781601) and with the Tube I disclose in my patent (#4260933). Although my circuit doesn't actually show it, it is listed in the claims, and in the prior art (Imris).

In the Motor #6 picture Jetijs posted above, the other battery wire is connected directly to the motor, without a recovery capacitor in the circuit. In the circuit in Gray's patent (#4661747), the Overshoot Switch is where the positive from the battery and the positive from the capacitor come together. So this is the component which "splits the positive".

Now I'll build something and test my latest understanding. John Bedini says that the motor will work without the CSET, so I'll leave it out at first, and just test the outer part of the circuit. If I can pop a coil, I'll repeat the test with the CSET, and compare the difference. The outer part of the circuit is similar to what I used for my recent spark test:

http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...n-tubetest.jpg
http://s384.photobucket.com/albums/o...l/tubetest.jpg