Gray Tube Replication

[Arker]

Power supply of Mr Hackenberger 1979

The Blue Engine Power Supply is an actual recovered original circuit that is now in the possession of Al Francoeur of Yak, DC (Canada). It is thought to have been the power supply for the Blue Engine (1979). It is a transistor switch mode power supply that has two meters on it. 0-5 kV and 0-5 Amperes. It appears to operate from 28 VDC.

Therefore I finally grasped what you mean in your long post #2808 (and subsequently in its complement #2813).


From what I understand, dear Spokane1, Nelson Schlaft would not have interfered this montage ? and then, neither specialists of the richissime Audrey Russell, nor Alan Francoeur : since Hack nobody has successful to run this power supply ...

This is impossible a such impotence.

(A priori, for a true electronician paid by Russell Audrey, he just needed was a bit of patience : desoldering each component to check its smooth functioning.)

Mark, what is the point of view of your friend Alan Francoeur about this extravagant failure ?


Friendly,
Arker




____________________
PS : Is it possible to consider the hypothesis where the overunity is inside the motor EMA-7 ? not in this converter. (Who would be in this instance a classic converter low-DC --> hight-DC, made on instructions from Hack.)

Dear Mark, what historical facts, what details, what reasonings ? give you to think that this converter is overunity.

[bmentink]

Actually this shortening of discharge time is caused by plasma blown away by lorentz force. If no magnets are used, the capacitor will be full discharged because there is nothing to stop the current after it start to flow. With the magnets, the current will only flow until a limit where lorentz force is strong enough to blow the plasma. The capacitor will then still have residual voltage in it, so the time needed to charge it to full voltage will be lower than if it fully discharged. You can see this from oscilloscope display of the current, if the magnet strength is changed then the current limit will be changed and also the spark rate.

Wicaksono

You are right, exactly what I said ... "spark quenching" or "plasma blown away by lorentz force" (same thing) shortens the spark and that is why my spark rate increased .. i.e more voltage left on the cap, so that is why I was confused by your comment below ...

so fast that any magnetic quenching probably can't add anything significant

It does add a significant improvement to the rate and strength of the plasma discharge ..

Cheers,
Bernie

[Spokane1]

The Case for the Converter

Dear Mark, what historical facts, what details, what reasonings ? give you to think that this converter is overunity.

Dear Arker,

The "Black Box" existed way before any of the motor/engines were built. In fact this is what they appeared to have started with. To get the money to have a custom motor fabricated from a machine shop would require more cash than either Gray or Marvin had on hand. They needed a willing investor (with lots of $$$) who would believe their contention that they were dealing with a new kind of energy.

The experimental demonstration that was developed (the technique I'm using) was to charge a capacitor with classical electricity from a Neon Transformer and pop a coil. Next they would charge the same capacitor to the same voltage potential and pop it with energy derived from their converter. They called it "Cold Electricity" (because they thought it made the electromagnets cooler). The difference in performance between the two trials was significant. So much so that early and technically informed investors came across with the money to further develop the "popping coil" apparatus into a rotary motor.

After that the same demonstration was used a number of times to inspire new investors after Gray had tapped out the old investors. The same situation happened when Gray and Hack went back to Kansas City for their great comeback in 1978. They didn't have a working engine because it had been destroyed by the FCC in 1977. The only thing they had was the popping coil demo. It must have worked since a lot of investors other than Russell Audrey were putting a lot of money into that venture.

I have my doubts that the converter by itself is over unity. The Gray team claimed that the converter alone had a COP of 4.0 in 1974. That claim has never been proven or even well tested that I know of. The OU properties of this electrostatic output are only apparent when applied to a repulsion type of transducer.

Even in the Crosby tests the actual measured output was torque into a dynometer (generator).

According to the GD Transcript:

(Ed T.): Do you intend to put a generating system on that motor?
(Hack): You have to - - -, because the Generator - - - - -, this little box (here) is what makes that motor go - - - ! To charge the battery is part of the recycling system that Ed Gray mentioned - -, in other words the next step beyond what your seeing here is - - -- (which is) a circuit which will tend to recharge energy back into the battery. Even in this concept that you will extend the life of the battery - - - -

This same thought has been mentioned in other audio discs that I have.

But, all of this is my analysis and as such I could be wrong. Maybe the non-classical conversion did take place in the rotary converter? But, I doubt it.

Mark McKay

[Spokane1]

Instrumentation Question

Actually this shortening of discharge time is caused by plasma blown away by lorentz force. If no magnets are used, the capacitor will be full discharged because there is nothing to stop the current after it start to flow. With the magnets, the current will only flow until a limit where lorentz force is strong enough to blow the plasma. The capacitor will then still have residual voltage in it, so the time needed to charge it to full voltage will be lower than if it fully discharged. You can see this from oscilloscope display of the current, if the magnet strength is changed then the current limit will be changed and also the spark rate.

Wicaksono

Dear Wicaksono,

What is your method to make scope traces of these fast high current capacitor discharge pulses? A wide band pulse current transformer probe that can respond to that fast of a time rise doesn't have the current capacity to measure the 100's of Amps.

Perhaps you have one of those expensive Pearson probes that can do both? I have seen these on eBay starting at $450.

My Pearson Model #110 is only good up to 50 Amps. To reach higher than that I have to split the line into equal segments and then only measure one segment. I suspect that every time I add another segment I loose some accuracy. But I have been able to go up to 300 Amps this way - for what its worth.

I understand that if you use a low value current sensing resistor the inrush pulse so disturbs the ground reference of the Oscilloscopes that the measurements are meaningless.

Mark McKay

[bmentink]

Dear Wicaksono,

What is your method to make scope traces of these fast high current capacitor discharge pulses? A wide band pulse current transformer probe that can respond to that fast of a time rise doesn't have the current capacity to measure the 100's of Amps.

Perhaps you have one of those expensive Pearson probes that can do both? I have seen these on eBay starting at $450.

My Pearson Model #110 is only good up to 50 Amps. To reach higher than that I have to split the line into equal segments and then only measure one segment. I suspect that every time I add another segment I loose some accuracy. But I have been able to go up to 300 Amps this way - for what its worth.

I understand that if you use a low value current sensing resistor the inrush pulse so disturbs the ground reference of the Oscilloscopes that the measurements are meaningless.

Mark McKay

Hi Mark,

I intend using a TRIAD CST206 current transformer. They are cheap and give good 6000v/uS response over 20..200khz. These have a central hole you feed the conductor through ..

Bernie

[Spokane1]

Current Probes

Hi Mark,

I intend using a TRIAD CST206 current transformer. They are cheap and give good 6000v/uS response over 20..200khz. These have a central hole you feed the conductor through ..

Bernie

Dear Bernie,

I looked up the data sheet for the largest model of that part number from Digi-Key. The maximum primary current appears to be 70 Amps. Do you think that the 200kHz bandwidth is going to give you meaningful readings when working with arc breakdown speeds of 10 nS? The fasted speeds I have observed (or thought I have observed) are in the area of 50 nS so I have yet to see a 10 nS fall time from a discharge. Anyway my Pearson #110 (got a good deal on eBay once upon a time) is rated at 50 MHz. I hope I can see fast waveforms when the time comes.

I was wondering how does that v/uS parameter rating have anything to do with a current measurement? I have no idea what the v/uS rating is for the Pearson #110. Perhaps I should look it up.

Be sure to insulate your conductor well. For some reason there seems to be an attraction from the conductors to the current probe. I had a short in my circuit just a few evening ago and I was working with 12 VDC. With HV I will get arcs to the current probe (which is a longer distance) than I do across the break down contacts (gap). Perhaps the donut shape has something to do with that.

Be sure to let us know how this component works out. It looks affordable, at least more so than a standard instrument current transformer.

Mark McKay

[bmentink]

Dear Bernie,

I looked up the data sheet for the largest model of that part number from Digi-Key. The maximum primary current appears to be 70 Amps. Do you think that the 200kHz bandwidth is going to give you meaningful readings when working with arc breakdown speeds of 10 nS? The fasted speeds I have observed (or thought I have observed) are in the area of 50 nS so I have yet to see a 10 nS fall time from a discharge. Anyway my Pearson #110 (got a good deal on eBay once upon a time) is rated at 50 MHz. I hope I can see fast waveforms when the time comes.

I was wondering how does that v/uS parameter rating have anything to do with a current measurement? I have no idea what the v/uS rating is for the Pearson #110. Perhaps I should look it up.

Be sure to insulate your conductor well. For some reason there seems to be an attraction from the conductors to the current probe. I had a short in my circuit just a few evening ago and I was working with 12 VDC. With HV I will get arcs to the current probe (which is a longer distance) than I do across the break down contacts (gap). Perhaps the donut shape has something to do with that.

Be sure to let us know how this component works out. It looks affordable, at least more so than a standard instrument current transformer.

Mark McKay

Hi Mark,

The V/us figure gives the slew rate of the secondary voltage ..
I tried the device out, but it did not work. I suspect that the core was held in saturation as all I got out was some 100khz noise ...

Oh well, will have to borrow works one and hope I don't blow it up ..

Bernie

[Arker]

Power supply EMA-7 of Mr Hackenberger 1979

Dear Spokane1


SUBJECT : Power supply of Mr Hackenberger 1979 (post #2851)

From what I understand, dear Spokane1, Nelson Schlaft would not have interfered this montage ? and then, neither specialists of the richissime Russell Audrey, nor Alan Francoeur : since Hack nobody has successful to run this power supply ...

This is impossible a such impotence.

(A priori, for a true electronician paid by Russell Audrey, he just needed was a bit of patience : desoldering each component to check its smooth functioning.)

Mark, what is the point of view of your friend Alan Francoeur about this extravagant failure ?

__________________________________________________ ________________________________

Is it possible to consider the hypothesis where the overunity is inside the motor EMA-7 ? not in this converter. (Who would be in this instance a classic converter low-DC --> hight-DC, made on instructions from Hack.)

Dear Mark, what historical facts, what details, what reasonings ? give you to think that this converter is overunity.



This post above, of yesterday, which seemed clear to me (but I do not master the english language ...) was summarize to two questions concerning exclusively the power supply of EMA-7 of 1979, that your friend Al Francoeur has in hands.

I reformulate them here :


- MY FIRST QUESTION :

How you (you as historian) explain that since Hack, nobody has successful to turn on this power supply ?
Because it is impossible. A true electronician has many strategies to repair any installation in the 80s.

We are not among the amateurish ! It is an absolute certainty that a true professional of the eighties's would have restored this montage. (A fortiori in the subsequent years.)



- MY SECOND QUESTION :

The group EMA-7 is over-unity. Well. It includes 2 separate entities : a "power supply EMA-7" and a "motor EMA-7". Well. solely one of the two is O-U :
- either the "power supply EMA-7"
- either the "motor EMA-7"

Why do you think (as an expert) that O-U is in this "power supply EMA-7" of 1979 ?

(On your post #2853, whose I thank you, you speak me about converters of 1974 and other things ; not a single word about my question ...)



Respectfully,
Arker

[Wicaksono]

magnetic quenching time

It does add a significant improvement to the rate and strength of the plasma discharge ..

Cheers,
Bernie

I think there is a small truth in Mr. Murakami words, about spark time is too short for magnetic quenching. Based on Mr. Murakami said about not have a continuous green arc, it seems that his circuit have smaller capacitor or larger inductor compared to Bernie's circuit. In order to observe this effect we have to have the plasma to be quenched multiple times in one discharge period of capacitor. If capacitor discharge period is smaller compared to plasma quench time then we will not see a green arc, just a purple arc. It is easier to see this in an oscilloscope display.

Wicaksono

[Wicaksono]

carbon resistor current sensing

I understand that if you use a low value current sensing resistor the inrush pulse so disturbs the ground reference of the Oscilloscopes that the measurements are meaningless.

Mark McKay

Yes indeed Mr. McKay, this is my only method - the cheap carbon resistor as current to voltage converter. Frankly this is what made me stuck, since I was expecting to see the capacitor discharge current. Instead I only have random non-periodic current pulse ala "hay field display". I am hoping that Bernie could see something in his LV inductor current, my experiment so far has been a tough luck.

Wicaksono

[Wicaksono]

pearson model 110 current probe

My Pearson Model #110 is only good up to 50 Amps. To reach higher than that I have to split the line into equal segments and then only measure one segment. I suspect that every time I add another segment I loose some accuracy. But I have been able to go up to 300 Amps this way - for what its worth.

Uh-oh, I hope I get this right, after I looked at Pearson current probe datasheet I saw that this is a passive device, it only has signal output, and no power input. If this is true then this is a wideband transformer that have coil as sensing device. If this is true then this current probe can't be used to observe the capacitor discharge current since it has DC component that will saturate current probe magnetic core. I think we have to use an active current probe that has a Hall effect sensor to do this.

Wicaksono

[Wicaksono]

triad cst206 current transformer

Hi Mark,

I intend using a TRIAD CST206 current transformer. They are cheap and give good 6000v/uS response over 20..200khz. These have a central hole you feed the conductor through ..

Bernie

This is the same case as Mr. McKay pearson current transformer, triad cst206 is also a passive device with signal output and no power supply input. You should use a Hall effect current probe to observe a current with DC component.

Wicaksono

[Spokane1]

Current Transformer Operation with DC Pulses

Uh-oh, I hope I get this right, after I looked at Pearson current probe datasheet I saw that this is a passive device, it only has signal output, and no power input. If this is true then this is a wideband transformer that have coil as sensing device. If this is true then this current probe can't be used to observe the capacitor discharge current since it has DC component that will saturate current probe magnetic core. I think we have to use an active current probe that has a Hall effect sensor to do this.

Wicaksono

Dear Wicaksono,

You are correct on the DC component issue. But a fast pulse is not really DC. If you look at its frequency spectrum it has everything in it from DC to Daylight. Signals with most of their energy in the AC region can be observed with this kind of device. These transducers also come with a "Droop" rating that describes its low frequency response. If the observed signal doesn't change in a few tenths of a millisecond then the output starts to droop at a certain prescribed rate. Apparently you can use this information to extract some additional data from low frequency signals. I figure that my current probe is useless below 3 kHz.

The DC component is completely removed from observation. With an AC signal the areas above and below the neutral line are automatically balanced to maintain the relationship that the current in equals the current out over a certain time period. So, only so much information can be evaluated with a wide band current transformer. At least a pretty good evaluation of the time rate of change of the current can be made - if it is within range of the device being used.

Yes, a new active Hall chip device would be wonderful for this kind of work. But, a LeCroy current probe of that caliber (50 MHz 400 Amp) starts at $1,400 on the eBay market.

Face it, there are many things in this world that money will not buy, but advanced electronic instrumentation is not among them. That is why we are called "Non-funded researchers". We may spend a couple of hundred bucks a month on this exploration, but that is a very small drop in the bucket when compared to professional research. We, have to live within our resources and come up with techniques and methods to deal with financial reality.

This example only shows why Blogs like this are so important. Here we can share cost effective solutions to these measurement issues that are very specific to our area of work. If some one comes up with a better method then all of us can benefit from that knowledge.

But, good technical questions like this one are just as important.

Mark McKay

[Spokane1]

Important Questions

Dear Spokane1


- MY FIRST QUESTION :

How you (you as historian) explain that since Hack, nobody has successful to turn on this power supply ?
Because it is impossible. A true electronician has many strategies to repair any installation in the 80s.

We are not among the amateurish ! It is an absolute certainty that a true professional of the eighties's would have restored this montage. (A fortiori in the subsequent years.)



- MY SECOND QUESTION :

The group EMA-7 is over-unity. Well. It includes 2 separate entities : a "power supply EMA-7" and a "motor EMA-7". Well. solely one of the two is O-U :
- either the "power supply EMA-7"
- either the "motor EMA-7"

Why do you think (as an expert) that O-U is in this "power supply EMA-7" of 1979 ?

Respectfully,
Arker

Dear Arker,

Please feel free to ask the same question several times so that we get it right. This is an important area of research.

QUESTION #1 Response

The "Blue Engine Power Supply" did not become available for any observation until 2012. It has been held in storage since 1980 in Dodge City, KS. Since 2012 it has been the property of Al Francoeur who has chosen not to disclose its internal construction features pending his hope to patent its operation. As far a I know he has not been able to get the power supply to function. Even though he has three motors, these units were converted to operate on classical electricity in 1980 and no longer have the ability to respond to "Cold Electricity" if it were made available. So, Al has to fix the power supply as well as one of the motors. Last I heard he was unemployed and unable to finance the needed repairs.

Al claims (and I agree) that this power supply was intentionally disabled some time in its history in at least three or four locations throughout the circuit. I don't know what these changes were. However I do know that the battery connection terminals were introduced in 1980 by Nelson Schlaft "Rocky". These terminals come form the aircraft industry and were unknown to Gray and his team prior to 1980.

So, when the "Blue Engine Power supply" was received it was disabled and probably modified to some degree. So far these changes have not been corrected. However, what is left of the Power supply can still give us a whole lot more information than what we had before.

It is not easy to restore a circuit of this nature if one does not know how it is suppose to operate. The Transcript discloses that it is resonant converter (not a forward or fly-back converter), this is important. A modern technician would restore it according to classical electronic principles. This is what "Rocky" did in 1980 and almost completely destroyed the non-classical features in the process.

QUESTION #2

The OU is in both the converter and the motor. The converter, by itself, does not produce any OU (or not much). The motor converts this non-classical energy into real world torque, but it will not function with straight classical electricity. So we have to have a working converter and a working motor to actually get measurable OU and apply for the 1 watt $50,000 reward.

Until then it is a pretty safe bet that we first must generate and attempt to measure some amount of the non-classical energy. Then we can go on and recreate the engine. It is my premise that we can detect the non-classical energy output with the popping coil apparatus. Other methods to do this would be very much appreciated.

My present approach is to focus on the operation of the converter. From this forum you can see that others are working on other parts of the system, like the CEST or the motor itself.

Mark McKay

[Wicaksono]

alternative of Lecroy current probe

Dear Wicaksono,

You are correct on the DC component issue. But a fast pulse is not really DC. If you look at its frequency spectrum it has everything in it from DC to Daylight. Signals with most of their energy in the AC region can be observed with this kind of device. These transducers also come with a "Droop" rating that describes its low frequency response. If the observed signal doesn't change in a few tenths of a millisecond then the output starts to droop at a certain prescribed rate. Apparently you can use this information to extract some additional data from low frequency signals. I figure that my current probe is useless below 3 kHz.

The DC component is completely removed from observation. With an AC signal the areas above and below the neutral line are automatically balanced to maintain the relationship that the current in equals the current out over a certain time period. So, only so much information can be evaluated with a wide band current transformer. At least a pretty good evaluation of the time rate of change of the current can be made - if it is within range of the device being used.

Yes, a new active Hall chip device would be wonderful for this kind of work. But, a LeCroy current probe of that caliber (50 MHz 400 Amp) starts at $1,400 on the eBay market.

Dear Mr. McKay, I think I have something to patch the blank area from DC to 3kHz of current probe bandwidth; it is called "linear current sensor". Here is a sample of series of current sensor made by Honeywell :
Honeywell Sensing and Control Product Search
These linear current sensor is used in industrial motor drive to control torque of motor, since motor current is linear function of torque. AFAIK their price is not as high as Lecroy probe.

Wicaksono