Gray Tube Replication

[Aaron]

comments

Again, I'm not doubting that your experiments do what you say they do, but I still think there is doubt as to whether Gray's CSET specifically had an arc to the grids. I'm encouraged by freeukpower's comments.

When I go back and look through Mark McKay's copious notes, I see that the power supply, based on the best info, was about 3000v. As I pointed out in post 691, you would need about 7500V to jump a 1/4" gap to the grids.

The fact that he's using ignition coils doesn't mean he would be getting 10KV+ at the CSET. He was using the coils to charge the front side cap to 3KV. You may get 10KV unloaded, but as soon as you start charging a huge cap, you won't see these peaks. At least this is what I've found here on my humble work bench.

@All
Why do so many people seem to feel nobody's listening to them? I think you have no idea how many people are listening. Just because we haven't added your theory to the New Testament, doesn't mean we think it's bunk. Personally I value all the ideas here, even the ones I'm making arguments against.

If the power supply is 3000v, the cap will charge higher than 3000v because of the choke that will show you higher voltage spikes coming out, which charge the cap higher than the coil. Take any output from a coil, run it though a diode and choke to a cap and the cap will charge above the source...you can see it on a scope. You can see an example here...sirhoax does some great vids and I found this long time ago when I first started to use the chokes to limit current on the wfc projects these spikes on the scope are of course above what the power source is and if you have a 3000v power source, you'll get more than this in the cap, guaranteed:
YouTube - Pulsing Hydrogen Fuel Cell - Resonant Charging Choke Concept
And we know that rate of change for dc is what is really important for increasing voltage and not the turns ratio..therefore super fast rate of change of 3000v into a choke...I think is more than sufficient to beat the necessary voltage.

Of course the current limiting abilit of the chokes magnetic field isn't as relevant here seeing that the spike from ignition coil is mostly potential anyway but the collapse of the choke sending a higher voltage spike than what came into the cap is relevant.

It has been said that the ignition coil by Gray was modified and probably had few turns for for the specific purpose of higher frequencies. This is common on some of the interesting ignitions system patents...most of the ignition coils are modified - even the Suckewer patents tell this...secondary has fewer windings.

At 3000v/mm, that is 6.35mm for a 1/4 inch or 19050 volts to jump 1/4 inch. A 3000v pulse going into an inductor and the inductor collapsing I think will have no problem reaching that voltage.

About the cap soaking up the spikes, I have stated this ... while stating if the front side cap is charged up. because otherwise, the cap will soak it up...I have pointed this out at least once right here in this thread. The cap is the low resistance path for the power supply as long as the cap can take a charge. This is why I have said with the cap "charged up" in the references to this because if the cap can't take any more, where else is the hv spikes from the ignition coil going to go? To the grid.

I see you address @all on the listening issue and the reason I said what I said is because I think it makes no sense for anyone to mention about not listening, especially when it has been posted by myself and others over and over and over and even in this exact thread. I have used the balloon popping analogy many times clearly showing that the potential itself is NOT a spark or arc moving to the grid as the source to charge the coil. This one single concept has been the most common explanation for how the tube works that I've seen since Peter's book came out..hv discharge into the lv rod...the the magical event moves to grids to power the coil...even though it hasn't been spelled out what the magical event is...but I think I explained what it is in my opinion as others have.

The only spark I ever mentioned moving from the rods to the grids is what I found with the ignition coil with LV switch open without a cap or with a charged cap. I have even gotten two events from the ignition coil at the exact same time...plasma burst at the gap of the rods PLUS a regular HV spark to the grid off the same pulse.

[Electrotek]

Not EMP

Just a little summary where we are now:
1. We can pop coils like Gray did.
2. We can build motor based on HV impulses. (Beshires1 building real one , and my quick build spinning disk )
3. Static generator is reproducible, see one of my movies.

And now we need to nail the mystery of Gray’s tube, hope we collected enough information for that.

It's quite easy to set off an EMP, using the Water Sparkplug circuit. Start with a dual frequency, externally resonant resmod (RESonant MODulus) having a high Q, consisting of two pill sized Cobalt magnets stuck to a large carpet needle, each at its own respective, logarithmic distance from the point. Each magnet has an isolated capacitance which, together with it's inductive needle length, produces an electro accustic resonance, when a Puff Spark is discharged next to the needle assembly.. When the long end of the needle is connected to an external circuit, the first, higher frequency signal enters the conducter first, since it's produced first, followed quickly by the lower frequency. These two frequencies are conducted to an antenna assembly which includes two concentric rings whose electro accustic resonance matches that of the two frequencies in the circuit. (These rings resemble the spacers between the discs of a Hard Drive.) The result is that an EMP moves outwards from the antenna at a constant velocity around a few hundred feet per second, putting out streetlights as it passes.

This is not the kind of pulse produced by the grids of the CSET, in the external circuit which includes the motor coils. Due to the capacitive relationship the grids have with the rod, all grids will charge before a dischage occurs. The outer grid will then discharge into the circuit first, with its lower frequency. Then the higher frequencies follow. This is the opposite of the pulse forming sequence needed to produce an EMP. However, there is also another kind of pulse, and that is electrostatic. This involves discharging a voltage into an arc, quickly followed by a higher voltage. This is the system Professor Chernetski was using when he produced a back spike which burned out the local substation. Before that, Tesla had the same experience.

As I understand it, there are two potential ways the CSET grids can get charged. If the electrode gives off a Radiant pulse, the same amount of charge will be placed on all of the grids as the Radiant Energy passes through them, with the smallest grid having the highest resultant voltage. The grids will then discharge, with the lowest voltage on the outer grid entering the commutator arc first. This has the potential to produce an electrostatic pulse.

If, on the other hand, the discharge between the rods transfers to the grids, a certain type of electrostatic energy which Gray said the arc contains will spread out on the grids. This MAY also produce a voltage gradient from one grid to the next. Here again, if the smallest, last to discharge grid has the highest voltage, an electrostatic pulse could form. If it does, then the Chernetski Effect may appear, in which the active vacuum is coherred, resulting in the appearance of electron/positron pairs.

I just found out from information Doc Beshires sent me that a gamma ray can also produce an electron/positron pair. The interesting thing about this is that a high energy collapsing magnetic loop will produce a gamma ray burst. Perhaps there's a connection between electron/positron pairs, magnetic flux, and the anomalous repulsion produced in the EV Gray motors?

[Aaron]

more food for thought on plasma puff balls

I still say that the patent states that the "discharge transfers to the grid". This means that the spark starts between the rods, then moves to sparking between the HV rod and the grid. The discharge potential across a 1/4" gap is irrelevant. When a capacitor is discharged through a HV spark, the spark puffs way up to more than the 1/4" radius needed to jump to the grid. This is plainly shown by the Water Sparkplug pictures.

And anyone who builds a workable system has a genuine Invention, whether it matches Gray's system or not. There's always room to improve on any patent, or to come up with alternative uses for a given component.

edit: Here's a picture of my Puff Spark, after the Radiant flash and without a grid. The spark over potential is based on the distance to the grid from the outside of this plasma ball.

[IMG][/IMG]

Exactly

@ eveyrone

I think what is needed is to clarify all of our vocab. I think we all agree there is some communication between the rods and grids. I think we can also "maybe" agree that at least this entire group is doing the most thorough work online in regards to the true workings of the Gray Technology.

The front cap discharges when LV rod is connected...it is shut off and something moves to the grid...but this also in no way at all excludes cap 38 from discharging by collision into this seeking ground either through LV rod or by the front cap itself if the potential is low enough.

I wouldn't consider the plasma a spark or "arc", it is a plasma discharge and is the only true longitudinal impulse that any dealing with...if there is a streamer involved...that is not it. The entire charge moves as one single cluster with no leading or trailing "spark".

I'd think everyone will have no doubts about this if they got Peter's Tesla's Radiant Energy DVD...it is a walkthrough on Tesla's entire concept in Tesla's own words. Tesla wasn't secret about this and I doubt anyone wants to argue against Tesla's own words.

Tesla explains all of this in no uncertain terms as it relates to his method of conversion...charge cap by inductive spikes then discharge the cap...I've mentioned this a few times...this means the cap is charged radiantly and a radiantly charged cap at a certain voltage can jump FARTHER than a current charged cap at the same voltage. So again, just more evidence that the space to the grids is probably not related stricly to being out of any dielectric breakdown range because it is irrelevant to the size of the plasma bursts.

And yes, the discharges get big.

1/4 gap I have explained the best I know as not being an issue for 3000v power supply but that of course has nothing to do with the event at the gap. Totally separate in case anyone got confused by that.

I have had plasma discharges off the sparkplug the size of a golfball so even a 1 inch gap isn't even an issue.

Biggest reference I've seen on the Gray stuff is 5000v/12uf, that is 150 joules at full charge and being disruptive is a seriously ridiculously high energy density from the time compression factor.

My golfball size burst from a sparkplug was with 1000v/66uf for a big fat 33 joules compared to Gray's discharges. So 150J, 1/4" gap issue? And that is 150J truly disruptive...of course not 100% of the cap is going to discharge...doubtful...lets say 2/3 or even 1/2 does...we're talking a burst that fills the whole tube's diameter and the tube is there to simply hold in the pressure as I've already seen that is what it is needed for...otherwise, it just leaks the pressure out.

This is a 5mm diameter (same diameter as ceramic on plug) plasma ball from a big whopping flypower of 160v/47uf = 0.6016J...less than 1 joule.
YouTube - Plasma CDI (capacitive discharge ignition) 50hz
1/4" is only 6.35mm...actually with one slow burst at a time, there isn't a bucking effect and that 0.6J burst exceeds the 6.35mm and if there is higher moisture in the air, then it gets even bigger than that and if you spray some real mist on it, the it gets even bigger. This isn't theoretical...this is all 100% proven out by many people already that have worked on the plasma ignition circuits from the beginning. Simply, the plasma swells up bigger the more air there is and even bigger with higher moisture in the air.

When you have a strong enough discharge...not 0.6J but much bigger, the Lorentz force, magnetic field created at the burst REPELS THE PLASMA from the gap...it ejects it and is yet one more thing that that allows for the distance to be less of an issue. This is not theoretical either...it is a matter of even conventional scientific established fact. YouTube - Water Sparkplug | Plasma Ignition| Booster Caps you can see the ejections from a gap and only happens if you have enough J's.

Here is another thing...the STANDING POTENTIAL...stressed electrostatic field is all that is necessary all by itself to cause the LV side (DC) to discharge..meaning WITHOUT a spark necessary to jump to begin with to initiate the event. This also means that cap 38 can charge from the electrostatic pressure on the HV rod without a spark even being necessary.

[Aaron]

comments

Read This From CSET Patent, This tells what happens and when it happens.
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6018/...beworksrb2.jpg
Again, the high voltage doesn't jump to the grids and go thru the load to charge capacitor 38. It can't because the grid connection has been decoupled. If anyone experiences this then thats a anomaly because the grid is not disconnected from the load.

That description is the exact description that has been the original foundation of thought for this system from the beginning I believe but what happens when the something happens at the gap...it another story...I think it is a plasma discharge that hits the grid and that if there is any charge up in cap 38, it will collide with this and power the load...cap 38 can't not collide with this.

What is happening in reality doesn't necessarily have to be the same as how they think it works or what they put in the patent either.

For example, they refer to the collapsing field as a counter EMF but that is 100% incorrect. While the load is charged...there is counter EMF that opposes this that is Lenz's law and Lenz's law dissapears when the power goes away...the counter EMF is what holds back the charging up or saturation of a coil. Even if cemf isn't an issue, no matter what, the collapsing spike has nothing to do with counter efm. This is why the charging of a coil is slow compared to the discharge. When the coil is discharged, it is very, very fast because there is no more counter emf holding it back. This isn't my opinion, this is simply very 101 stuff when it comes to coils. Most people in the free energy world talk about using the back emf to do stuff with but they're seriously misusing that term. The inductive spike is simply not counter emf...this shows that the concepts and terms used may or may not be accurate in any of their descriptions and there is plenty of evidence that Gray didn't know what was going on to begin with.

It may be thought that it is a misunderstanding of the patent instead of the patent having misinformation but this language they are using is agreeable to the patent examiners and has no relation to reality. Bedini's patent says it uses the back emf to charge batts...because that is what the patent examiners will accept. It is commonly thought that the inductive spike is 100% worthless therefore you can't claim that the inductive spike charges batteries since it doesn't have current and has no use except for blowing out stuff when the power goes out so we have surge protectors...we all know that if it blows out stuff, it isn't worthless but that is what the conventional doctrine is, they stick to it and they make sure the patent will be in alignment with their doctrine abiding by the language they permit.

I have friends with many patents and most are things that you can't hide what is going on. There is no way to hide in any kind of lingo what the device does...what about a toothbrush or a toungue depresser. The patent won't be able to hide anything proprietary for something that is just too self evident. But the working of a circuit like this where it is very unconventional, things can be hidden in conventional language..beause that language doesn't even describe the other functions. Gray's patent doesn't spell out the collision process...the closest they come is that there is a hv discharge and there is a battery. The only thing self-evident in the patent is that is invalidates itself as being an honest description of how the motor works as evidenced by the cemf and not even explaining what mixing static and DC does or is...so the patent is far from honest.

I'm not debating what you posted about the patent excerpt because it is what I believe is the chronology of events to a degree.

But with the load or lv rod disconnectedthere is one thing with HV, you can disconnect the grid from the circuit, that will only prevent capacitive discharge into it because that isn't a strong path to ground but it will do nothing to stop a spark...at hv, the spark will go to any conductor...be it the grid or the lv rod...it doesn't matter.

Use an ignition coil, pulse it straight to the HV rod with the LV rod connected. You will get what is expected...a spark at the gap. Disconnect the LV rod completely from the circuit...but continue to pulse the ignition coil to the HV rod (and lets say there is no capacitor in parallel with the output)...just to see the demo... the HV output from the coil will continue to jump to the LV rod without the lv rod even being connected. I'm not making this up, I've actually done the experiments to find out.

If you do this experiment, you will find this is true too. You will also find that if the LV rod has a wide enough gap and if the grid is closer, it will simply spark over to the grid even if the grid is not even connected to anything.

This is not an anomaly, this is simply why we always get shocked when touching the output of an ignition coil even if we're not physically connected to the ground..we get shocked for the same reason...the potential travels to us as a conductor. The only way the spark won't happen is if it is out of range of breakdown because it is a regular hv spark.

Please don't take this as an argument Beshires. I agree with the chronology to a degree of what is in that exerpt but when it comes to how it is impossible for anything to go to grid based on it being disconnected is something I have already proven to be not an anomaly but is the expected personality of hv.

[Beshires1]

Fo Da Last Time!

Here is another thing...the STANDING POTENTIAL...stressed electrostatic field is all that is necessary all by itself to cause the LV side (DC) to discharge..meaning WITHOUT a spark necessary to jump to begin with to initiate the event. This also means that cap 38 can charge from the electrostatic pressure on the HV rod without a spark even being necessary.

I see what they mean about being ignored. For the last time! CAP 38 does'nt charge by the high voltage jumping to grids then passing thru the load to reach this cap.The load is driven by the energy generated from the discharge of cap 10 into the tube. The repulsion act of the energized electro magnets immediately disconnect the energized coil from the grid. As the coils magnetic field collapses the moving contacts align to allow the back EMF to charge cap 38. The back emf is added to any excess energy that possibly makes it thru the coils to charge Cap 38. the power pulse is intended to power the coils. If you are charging Cap 38 from the grids, then your motor is not running. Read the patent excerpt I posted earlier. Think of it like this: Your cap 10's discharge essentially is energizing 2 motor coils and is charging Cap 38 which then discharges to recharge the Batterys. I don't think so.

[Aaron]

impossible leap

I see what they mean about being ignored. For the last time! CAP 38 does'nt charge by the high voltage jumping to grids then passing thru the load to reach this cap.The load is driven by the energy generated from the discharge of cap 10 into the tube. The repulsion act of the energized electro magnets immediately disconnect the energized coil from the grid. As the coils magnetic field collapses the moving contacts align to allow the back EMF to charge cap 38. The back emf is added to any excess energy that possibly makes it thru the coils to charge Cap 38. the power pulse is intended to power the coils. If you are charging Cap 38 from the grids, then your motor is not running. Read the patent excerpt I posted earlier. Think of it like this: Your cap 10's discharge essentially is energizing 2 motor coils and is charging Cap 38 which then discharges to recharge the Batterys. I don't think so.

Your claim isn't based on fact.

You say that because if the grid and/or lv rod is disconnected from the rest of the circuit by the commutator being in the off position, you say in your words that it is "IMPOSSIBLE" for a spark to jump there. That is a strong word of conviction that evidently means that you really, really believe it.

Now on the issue of IF Gray used the power supply cap 38 up is a TOTALLY SEPARATE issue of if it is possible to have cap 38 charged or a spark jump to LV rod if they are disconnected so please stay on the tracks with this one Beshires.

Do you maintain that it is impossible still - for a spark to jump if the commutator has the lv rod and/or grid disconnected from the circuit?

[Aaron]

how the gray tube works

Beshires, we all know what the patent says:



The world's first public online demo of this concept.
YouTube - Water Sparkplug | Plasma Ignition | With current restriction
Watch 1:50 to 2:20
You can see the air core coil charge from this effect
with the green plasma burst.

Ignition circuit:
HV jumps to LV source...is "recompressed" and
has nowhere to go but over the gap through a
coil back to ground.

If a cap is behind the coil,
it simply charges up...it CAN charge during the
ON pulse meaning, if cap 38 is charging then
the motor CAN still be running.

Gray Tube:
Front cap discharges over gap into LV source,
compressed further and has nowhere to go but
to grids to seek ground through coil back to
ground.

If using spark gap between high and low sources,
you simply have to have that spark gap narrower
than the distance from those points to the grid
or from the spark plug pos to ground.

If you think a wire can't carry the expanded potential
through it, it can..as long as there are no weaknesses
in it. The weakest link takes the beating.

[Aaron]

Gray Tube Principle Explained

Here is the comparison between the silent plasma video I originally showed last August and the Gray Tube circuit.



Back then, everyone was disputing what I was saying telling me you should be able to put some grids by the gap on the spark plug to capture something from the plasma discharge but they didn't understand what I was telling them when I pointed out the fact that the gap on the plug isn't analogous to the gap between the rods in the tube. The GROUND STRAP on the spark plug is analogous to the GRIDS in the tube.

What I have shown in drawings and videos about cap 38 getting charged is EXACTLY applying the PRINCIPLE of collision and forcing it to a common ground through with an inductor in series. It demonstrated the principle in the inverse way and is an accurate representation of the effect.

My simplified spark circuit where I had the inductor between the diode and lv cap on the ignition circuit, same thing, just the inductor is in series with the first compression but is still in series with the effect moving to common ground.

It is the same thing any way you look at it and the silent plasma demo is a mirror image of the concept of the Gray Tube circuit.

The diode on the spark circuit can be a spark gap so that it looks like the gray tube more but it doesn't matter..it still works like that...the early plasma ignition patents had spark gaps in that place instead of a diode.

Beshires, you said if cap 38 is charging then motor ain't runnin. Well, you reveal the fact that you haven't conducted the experiment for one and for two you never scoped the coil to see you get two pulses...a lower voltage pulse followed by a bigger spike.

In separate videos, I also showed that the cap was getting charged as I show in the diagram above...right off the backside of the inductor.

The grid is setup to capture as much of the plasma ball as possible...if it is a point, it gets a small dabble of it.

[boguslaw]

Tek I agree with you, A electrostatic coupling is any spark, or arc that travels thru air. And it does'nt have to necessarily be seen to be doing it either.

Electrostatic coupling is what Tesla used in his transmitter.
Carbon resistor, HV rod, capacitance of cap 16 and inductance of system constitutes RLC oscillator circuit.Somehow on HV or LV rod there is a long conductor which acts like freeukpower described except it is wound into pancake coil form.Stationary wave which occurs on this long transmission line rise voltage by electrostatic coupling at anti-nodes many times.The secondary of that transformer is copper spiral. Holes in copper spiral may be made to release electron excess out of the transformer.
Length of each pancake coil must be 1/4 of computed wave length of RLC oscillator. Pancake coils may or may not be connected to copper spiral.
We need to resolve detailed connections inside CSET . Tesla transformer and tesla transmitter patents shoud be compared for that purpose.

[Beshires1]

What you have proved is that with a simple modification the Grey circuit will work as you say. But not as it was designed to do. That is an anomoly. A simple relay can be slightly modified to appear to charge batteries and that is also good. But the relay is doing something other than its designed to do because of the modification. I am stating FACTS as, Based on the intend use of the CSET should be. I never said that what you are doing does'nt work. Even if you did stumble upon a connection between the plasma circuit and the CSET doesn't make the holy grail. I can use a car to push down a house but that does'nt make it a bulldoser. When I showed the CSET working in my video, you blasted me because you said it had no resemblance to the Grey Circuit. So even if I produced the first visible effect from the CSET doing what it is supposed to do , It wasn't right because it wasn't as Grey intended it to be done. Your modification is cool but it is a anomoly. Again I'm using the patent to back up my statements. You attack me publicly to defend your modification that you stumbled upon. Go Figure!!! Ed Grey built at least 6 or more working motors. How many have you built? I have a tendency to believe the intentions of the person responsible for these motors. I'm not saying that you are wrong. But I think that maybe Grey is a little "More Right" in describing how his motors work.

[boguslaw]

Beshires

I agree with you.Gray has a little knowledge about his CSET but it was an experience of investigating working device ! Later that was all confiscated and he has no choice except to base on remembrances.

The final proof would be to build working model, but here is a problem. That could be dangerous to show on video.

[Jules Tresor]

Grays Static Generator

@mlurye:
Excuse me mlurye, but I think I missed the explanations about your 'Grays Static Generator' video.
It's quite amazing that you reproduced the effect being able to immerse a light in water
Are you using non-conductive water, or cold electricity ???

Can you detail the circuit and give snapshots ? Or just give me the post link where you put all the details already

There is so much happening here during the few past months that it's hard to keep the record clear and to remember everything

@to all: please keep cool and be easy to forgive others ... to be humble and compassionate is part of the qualities to develop to reach the high consciousness !
No hard competition please, we are not here to build weapons or win 1 million USD !
Being the first to discover something is not a ticket for even !
A good heart is one !

thanks for sharing
MDG

PS: I'll have a lot of work trying to resume all what is happening on this fantastic forum ! to put in my tesla3.com

[Electrotek]

Field Energy

If you think a wire can't carry the expanded potential
through it, it can..as long as there are no weaknesses
in it. The weakest link takes the beating.

In this picture, it looks like Field Energy is coming off the side of the wire, with no spark gap. Can you replicate this effect? Is it just trying to jump to the coil?

[mlurye]

stephenafreter,
Here is basic schema. You can try 110V bulb, play with gap and cap value to get the best result. You can put it into tap water, just try not to touch it

[Aaron]

@boguslaw

Beshires

I agree with you.Gray has a little knowledge about his CSET but it was an experience of investigating working device ! Later that was all confiscated and he has no choice except to base on remembrances.

The final proof would be to build working model, but here is a problem. That could be dangerous to show on video.

Out of all this time Bogus on all the groups, you have a lot to say but I have never seen a photo or video of anything you have ever done. Why don't you post something so we know you're actually building something.