Gray Tube Replication

[Aaron]

multiple of

Yes, multiple of.

[Aaron]

non shockable

Here's the major issue I have with the radiant outputs Ive seen so far:

1. It still shocks
2. Smell burning skin like high-freq rf.

What was Gray doing to get this non-shocking cool electric effect?? I think it involved a static field somehow. Either by combining static with conventional HV or getting it to actually flow someway.

It only shocks if the impulse is too slow... you can have a 1hz frequency not shock you if the impulse that happens at 1hz happens at the low microsecond range.

So a 6khz EMS Inverter could have impulses that are 1 microsecond or less..how? I'm not sure but it is possible. That would be totally cold and non-shockable.

So the frequency is different that the speed of the impulses themselves. I guess you could say as long as the duty cycle is small enough, you can have the cold effect at any frequency.

[martin]

@ nat1971a

When I get everything set back up I'll video that. I mistakenly found this out after I made the video. The bulbs arent all that bright, but the effect is there. Im guessing only about 2 feet or so.

@ Aaron

Yes, I too have thought this and am writing a program for a microcontroller to adjust the overall frequency and pulse width as well. Generally in conventional electronics, the more narrow the pulse width the less power output you get, so then you increase the freq, and then decrease the pulse width... and so on. However with everything that's been discussed so far, Im afraid that just adjusting the pulse width wont produce much power out. I think if we figure out how to interrupt the pulses so that they're say in the 1 microsecond range, then we may have something.

[Aaron]

short impulse power supply

I think if we figure out how to interrupt the pulses so that they're say in the 1 microsecond range, then we may have something.

Right, this isn't an issue with the caps but how to do this with any kind of variation of an ignition coil on the front end...I'd like to see this in a compact version with off the shelf parts.

It is speculation at this point that Gray was having these short of impulses and we know that we can get a good radiant charge with impulses that aren't that short.

But even with shorter pulse width at high frequency, power output goes down but we only want the potential anyway...just to tickle the cap with potential impulses without transferring power.

[Electrotek]

Aaron: I think you're on the right track. If I remember correctly, Gray said "What we're doing is sending two micro second pulses through the motor, one behind the other".

And potential only may be what he meant by static. Ie, no current.

[nat1971a]

ok i just had a quick flick throught the cited references on grays patent 4661747

and found one for a thyratron

[nat1971a]

Just ordered a russian thyratron for $10USD to try out.....

[Aaron]

two pulses

Aaron: I think you're on the right track. If I remember correctly, Gray said "What we're doing is sending two micro second pulses through the motor, one behind the other".

And potential only may be what he meant by static. Ie, no current.

The ignition coil lv source discharges fast directly after the hv pulse...could be viewed as two right after another and it might be that simple in the Gray motor. The hv coming off the ignition coil sure doesn't do anything to charge a coil with any real magnetic field but with the diode type effect, there is definitely a synergy that allows the hv to contribute in a big way.

[Aaron]

modified ignition coil

I think Mark posted this originally somewhere. I'm guessing this is something Mark made. This is the other option to reduce the voltage coming off the secondary I believe since it uses half of the primary at a time and increase the frequency. But what chopped it to get 6khz?

Photo #4
Example of Modified Ignition coil with Retro-fitted Center Tapped Primary

· How can a mechanical type vibrator achieve a switching frequency of 6 KHz when common tube type car radio vibrators only go to about 200Hz8 (and those were quickly replaced by transistors in 1958)?

[Aaron]

micro second pulses

In one of the old articles, it says "the motor creates power surges one right after another in micro-seconds." They say this directs the magnetic flux field...used for cooling. That is from the article "Engine Runs Itself" - it is on Peter's page.

That could mean that the event may not necessarily be 2 pulses but just that all the pulses are one right after another and they are microseconds short. I think this is definitely the capacitance discharges and not the operation of the power supply.

[martin]

I think Mark posted this originally somewhere. I'm guessing this is something Mark made. This is the other option to reduce the voltage coming off the secondary I believe since it uses half of the primary at a time and increase the frequency. But what chopped it to get 6khz?

Photo #4
Example of Modified Ignition coil with Retro-fitted Center Tapped Primary

· How can a mechanical type vibrator achieve a switching frequency of 6 KHz when common tube type car radio vibrators only go to about 200Hz8 (and those were quickly replaced by transistors in 1958)?

Any time I design a switching power supply for my custom car audio, I center tap the primary like Gray did in his schematic and that's what it looks like from that picture. According to the way the schematic is drawn and what I do when I build one, 12v gets fired from say top winding (outside) to the center tap (ground). That gives a rising and then falling output (ie 0 - 12 -0) on the secondary step-up. However, when you fire the 12v on the other winding (outside) to ground, it gives an inverted pulse on the output, falling then rising (0 - -12 - 0). This actually doubles your total voltage swing out vs just using a single primary winding. Just about all high end car audio amp power supply's opperate this way.

[martin]

Whether he increased the voltage out or decreased it would depend on if mallory either just center tapped the primary or added a extra windings and center tapped them. I do know this, I really have to protect the switching mosfets from voltage spikes when running in this configuration. They will fry in a heartbeat. My supplies and generally amp manufactures' run these around 20kHz PWM regulated. If you "mismatch" the primary with the frequency of the switches, you get major over voltage problems! This could be part of our solution! Im so stupid, overlooking this for so long when it was right in front of me. I cant tell you how long it took me to figure out how to keep those FET's from over heating.

This diagram is the basic idea. Mine uses a medium toroid core (about 1.5 - 2" OD), bifilar wound center tapped primary. For experiments, try starting with around 20 turns and running around 4-8kHz. I'll bet you'll get so many voltage spikes it wont even be funny. Be careful though, the FET's or transistors WILL overheat!

Now that I think about it even further, didnt Gray mention some sort of having to get some timing issue correct with the switching power supply? I cant remember where I read that but he could have been talking about the timing of the relay's so that the individual waves produced by the switches were synced up. I drew timing lines in my drawing and if the transistors arent switched properly you'll get all kinds of goofy waveforms.

Correct me if Im wrong, but the radiant spike occurs on the off side of a square wave. Ok, if that's the case, then if the other switch drives opposite of the first then when the second switch kicks on it would actually amplify or add to the radiant pulse by driving below the 0 volt line. When Ive talked to other EE's on this type of supply they call this effect "ringing" which could be what we need and would almost definately explain the overheating of the switches.

[Electrotek]

Green Comet

There's a comet in the neighborhood and it's green. The article says the color comes, in part, due to the interaction of the sun's light with diatomic carbon. Could the UV in a spark and this same type of carbon make a green spark? The blast from a spark will often deposit carbon on the electrode, probably due to an electrical interaction with CO2.

'Jupiter-sized' comet to streak past Earth tonight | Mail Online

[freeukpower]

To all

This is my fifth post. Covering experimentation on a CSET under vacuum.

During 2006 I became aware of the inspirational work done by the Correa’s see the very good write up at **** Paul & Alexandra Correa ~ Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharges (PAGD) ****.

To paraphrase their work, in their last patent there is a Tesla coil discharging into a form of CSET held under high vacuum. Various articles state that they were seeing upto 10 times the energy input on the output stage. Looking closely at their work I could see a lot of similarity with the Gray CSET. As I could not get a short pulse from my second timing switch **** second timing switch on Flickr - Photo Sharing! **** because of the trailing sparks. I felt that working at lower voltages under vacuum as the Correa’s had proved would perhaps work.

After much experimentation to get a CSET configuration that I could seal under vacuum I developed my CSET number five **** CSET number five on Flickr - Photo Sharing! ****. This uses 2 sparking plugs to create the spark gap, the plug on the earth / LV side has a built in carbon resistor. For the collector grids I used copper water pipe 32mm ID for the outer grid and 20mmID for the inner. Center electrode is a brass rod 4mm Dia. On my capacitance meter set to 2000PF scale, it reads 1.2. For the plastic pipe to the vacuum pump connection is via a turned brass fitting which also holds the earth / LV end of the spark gap.

Some time previously I had acquired a proper bench HV power supply **** Bench HV power supply on Flickr - Photo Sharing! **** this can go upto 20KV and is easily adjustable. Within the unit is a full wave bridge rectifier and numerous capacitors for smoothing. With this unit I feel safe and so far have not had any HV flash-overs to me though I do not use any form of ground/earth connection.

The circuit I used was directly related to the last Gray patent: Bench power supply feeding to full wave bridge rectifier to 1 micro Farad capacitor. The vital safety spark gap then to the CSET, output of which went to the timing switch and then to ground. From the output of the CSET I either used a home made capacitor bank made from 300 ml glass bottles filled with salt water wrapped in aluminum foil standing in a plastic box ( tested to 10KV with the bench power supply ) **** Bottle capacitor on Flickr - Photo Sharing! **** or to a modified transformer core for popping a aluminum plate ****
Transformer core for poping plate on Flickr - Photo Sharing! **** I do not recall trying both at the same time.

Initial testing showed promise of energy output at quite modest voltages 300 to 500V DC. If I could get the duration of the contact of the ball bearing short enough then the spark between the plug electrodes could be stretched to over 5 mm gap. If the conditions in the tube were right a pink or blue plasma could be seen but if the conditions were not right there would just be a blue spark flash over to the grid which did not charge the capacitor.

Trying to get a faster speed from the ball bearing I used an elastic band to fire the ball bearing down the ramp at the contacts.

After many attempts I had a result a large electrical explosion in the box holding the Bottle capacitor. Investigation showed that the aluminum foil surrounding the bottles had melted and in places vaporized this was some enormous energy discharge.

Pondering this sudden discharge trough the capacitor made me realize why Ed Gray had the second safety spark gap across the output of the CSET It’s to protect anything coupled on the output of the CSET and is vital.

I again felt that this success was due to having an extremely short duration for the pulse to ground. Discussing this result with a friend lead to him designing a circuit using a SCR to act as the earth trigger. Having blown up many, of all sorts of specifications, we came to the conclusion that as they rely upon zero volt potential to shut off they were getting too much current flow. The next design was to use 2 high voltage reed relays triggered in sequence controlled by 555 timers. The sequence was to turn on reed 1 start timer at 10 milliseconds the output turned on reed 2 and started second timer at 1 millisecond which turned off reed 1. After a reset signal the above repeated 5 times a second or could be a one off shot. All the electronics were mounted in a metal box which was grounded to a good natural earth. **** Reed Relay on Flickr - Photo Sharing! ****

We never did get this to work for any period of time as either the reeds would weld their contacts closed or the electronics would self destruct when I got a radent event. No further progress was made over Christmas 2007 and on the 7th of January 2008 my friend and electronics guru had a fatal heart attack. The early part of 2008 was spent salvaging equipment from the house and workshop before the family put it up for sale.

From this experimentation I can summarize the following

1 safety spark gaps are crucial for equipment and operator safety.
2 short duration pure DC pulses are what gets the energy from the CSET.
3 modern electronics even if screened can not survive the discharge from the CSET.
4 a spark between HV rod and the grids loses any potential energy developed in the CSET
5 for energy to be generated by the CSET there needs to be a glowing plasma in the collector grids of the CSET
6 the Capacitors on the HV side must not discharge completely, power supply must have sufficient potential to maintain the HV during the discharge of the spark in the CSET.

[Electrotek]

Freeukpower: I'm going to think long and hard about your latest post, even though some of us are going at it a different way. I presonally feel that the CSET is a crossed field switch. And I am familiar with the Correa's two patents. With many different experimenters trying various approaches, I'm sure this mystery will be solved.