Gray Tube Replication

[Spokane1]

Small format Thyratron spec

I love brute force!! It got me results quick!!

Dear nat,

Let me understand your application correctly. You are going to use a small format Thyratron to act as a switching element for a charged capacitor into a low impedance load with a forward current capacity of only 100 milliampers?

Have you done any calculations to see what your initial forward pulse current might be in your particular setup?

My experience with E.V. Gray types of pulse circuits generally deal with peak currents in the neighborhood of 50-400 Amps. But, it all depends upon how large of an inductor you are driving. My electromagnets run between 10 - 50 Milli-Henry's, but you could be using something else.

Anyway, just wondered. That size of thyratron would never survive the kind of circuit's I have explored.

Best of luck with your analysis.

Mark McKay,PE

[nat1971a]

Mark,

It wasnt by accident that i placed AC on the grid. This was done based on information i have. I won't say anything more at this point.

Regards,
Nat

[Arker]

Your extraordinary EMA0

Dear Spokane1

If your schedule allows, could you reveal on this forum some information about your extraordinary EMA0 ?

The interior layout is roughly as it is draw in the patent ?

In January, you indicated that the major-coils were also transformers, which you did not know the ratio of primary/secondary.

Now, have you new information about this major-coil ? (If it is not too intrusive) :
- resistance (primary and secondary)
- number of turns ( " " )
- AWG wire diameter ( " " )
- inductance ( " " )
- can you specify the length apparent, width, thickness, of this major-coil
- to what the primary is connected ?
- and the 2e wire, of the secondary ?

A priori, with your first information of january, I thought that your major-coil was also an impedance adapter. Which then means that the whole system is granted.
(For the less specialized readers of this forum, I specify that calculates the agreement of such an adapter considering the ohmic resistance of the load. It is a resistance, not an inductive impedance, which accords with the impedance of the generator.)
However it is usually not a lot of turns in a transformer impedance adapter dedicated to pulse mode ... The order about ten, otherwise they weaken too much energy they transfer.
So if the major-coil was a classic impedance matching, it should be smaller than the minor-coil, this is not the case. What features unite the minor-coil with his major-coil ? Does the minor-coil is used to tilt the magnetic field of major-coil so that it is no longer radial ?

By the way, could you clarify dear Spokane1 as much the resistance of your minor-coil (between 1/2 and 1 ohm I think ?) and what is its the length apparent, width, thickness ?

You write that the magnetism of the minor-coil is moderate ; if I calculate with 1/3 tesla to see, I get ~175 amperes (that should keep a few milliseconds) or a voltage of ~ 120 volts according to the Ohm's law.

Even if my numbers are based on approximations of the minor-coil (such as perimeter : ~40 cm ; ~2cm thickness ; etc .) we see that the secondary of major-coil would have thick wire, little windings, it lowers the voltage.

Arker


PS : Mark McKay you are an extraordinary and generous being, your wife is lucky to have you chosen.

(Sorry for my approximate english, I am of french nationality, I live near Paris.)

Marvin Cole was secretly predestined to triumph in the world of electro-magnets with his name (Marvin COIL) ; this man is as awesome as Faraday. Same for you : your name predestined you to this magnificent investigation : McKEY.

[Spokane1]

Construction Details of the EMA0

Dear Spokane1

If your schedule allows, could you reveal on this forum some information about your extraordinary EMA0 ?

The interior layout is roughly as it is draw in the patent ?

In January, you indicated that the major-coils were also transformers, which you did not know the ratio of primary/secondary.

Now, have you new information about this major-coil ? (If it is not too intrusive) :
- resistance (primary and secondary)
- number of turns ( " " )
- AWG wire diameter ( " " )
- inductance ( " " )
- can you specify the length apparent, width, thickness, of this major-coil
- to what the primary is connected ?
- and the 2e wire, of the secondary ?

A priori, with your first information of january, I thought that your major-coil was also an impedance adapter. Which then means that the whole system is granted.
(For the less specialized readers of this forum, I specify that calculates the agreement of such an adapter considering the ohmic resistance of the load. It is a resistance, not an inductive impedance, which accords with the impedance of the generator.)
However it is usually not a lot of turns in a transformer impedance adapter dedicated to pulse mode ... The order about ten, otherwise they weaken too much energy they transfer.
So if the major-coil was a classic impedance matching, it should be smaller than the minor-coil, this is not the case. What features unite the minor-coil with his major-coil ? Does the minor-coil is used to tilt the magnetic field of major-coil so that it is no longer radial ?

By the way, could you clarify dear Spokane1 as much the resistance of your minor-coil (between 1/2 and 1 ohm I think ?) and what is its the length apparent, width, thickness ?

You write that the magnetism of the minor-coil is moderate ; if I calculate with 1/3 tesla to see, I get ~175 amperes (that should keep a few milliseconds) or a voltage of ~ 120 volts according to the Ohm's law.

Even if my numbers are based on approximations of the minor-coil (such as perimeter : ~40 cm ; ~2cm thickness ; etc .) we see that the secondary of major-coil would have thick wire, little windings, it lowers the voltage.

Arker

Dear Arker,

The EMA0 is a model that is about 3" (100mm) in diameter. Even though it is composed of about 200 custom machined parts at this scale there was no actual windings provided on the rotor or the stator.

However the interior of the model is exactly like the larger EMA4. It appears to me that the fabrication shop who built this model must have been given original mechanical plans from which to work. Every thing is scaled to the size of the 3" clear polycarbonate case.

Using the EMA0 and some of the GD photographs I calculate that the exterior dimensions of the "Magor" electromagnet for the EMA4 Free-Energy Engine is 8" long x 1.5" wide x 1" tall with 3/4" additional core material protruding into the Aluminum base plate to form a dove tail connection joint.
The laminated core is 6.5" long. I estimate that the thickness of the core material is .5"

The core material appears to be laminated metal. I assume it is standard transformer steel sheet. For my replications I'm using the cores of Microwave oven transformers.

The "Minor" electromagnet is only 3/4" wide but its core length (with out the wire it is still 6.5" long to match the "magor" electromagnet. I estimate that its core width is around 0.25". The Minor electromagnet appears to be a 2-wire inductor and is not a transformer.

We still don't know what diameter wire was used. For my replication I used #19 AWG and could only get about 90 turns on the "Minor" electromagnet. As I recall I got about 210 turns on the Major electromagnet. This was wired in a 1:1configuration for initial testing. I have the inductance measurements at home - along with some photos. I shall get that information for you on Monday.

The resistance is below the range of my FLUKE 87 meter. I have a special low resistance meter, but its needs to be repaired. Obvisouly the resistance is really low due to the size of the wire used and its short length. Your estimate of between .5 and 1 Ohm is probably correct, but for high current calculations we need more precession.

I havent done any magnetic calculations yet. I want to explore the relationship of the windings to see what kind of arc burn times can be acheived. I believe we need between 1 - 8 milliseconds.

It appears that several of the stator electromagnets were connected in series to increase the overall inductance - possiably as a mens to widen the current pulse.

As far as how the "Major" and "Minor" coils are connected - Well its anybodies guess since there are many possibilities. WE do know three things:

1. The laminated iron cores were electically connected in sets of four (4) electromagnets (2 Minor and 2 Major) this was done by means of a common Aluminum base mounting plate.

2. One Major electromagnet is interconnected with one Minor electromagnet.

3. One of the Major transformer leads (primary or secondary?) are connected directly to the transformer core. It is unclear if the two Major electromagnets (in any set of four) were connected to the same base plate.

There is a good chance that the primary of the Major transformer was driven by a capacitor around 5 uF at an initial voltage of 3000-3500 Volts DC.

I know this is not much to go on, but it is what we have. I'll add additional information next Monday or so.

Thanks for the interest.

Mark McKay, PE

[Arker]

Details of the EMA0/EMA4

Dear Spokane1,

I thank you sincerely for your generosity.
And hopefully not too ennoy you with my new questions.

I 100 mm in diameter
- I had seen in your previous posts that your EMA0 was 3 "but I thought of a mistake like we all do, I do not thought that it was so small.

- From what I understand (because I'm not very fluent in English) was not EMA0 your wound when you bought it?

- Have you wounded so that your little EMA0 can turn, even a modest ? Or is it your comp for build a larger model on which you will study the rotation and torque ?

- That you have left it still fundamental to discover on this engine? (Aside degravitation.)

II Coil resistance
- don't you ennoy to measure low resistances : with the dimensions that you have just given it are easy to calculate.


III What is vocation the major-coil and his minor-coil (Together. And separately.)
- You did not say what is here the transformer function, this function is obviously essential. Can I have your opinion please ?

- Why the transformer function is not on the minor-coil ?

- What is the coil that really enhances the torque : the minor or major ?


IV "The laminated iron cores were electically connected in sets of four (4) electromagnets"
- On patent Grey/3890548 fig. 5, there are 9 major-coils and 9 minor-coils to the stator (and on the rotor 3 of each).

- Have you the same thing on the stator in your EMA0 ? And the rotor coils did you 9 or 6 ?

- When you say "connected by 4" you speak of the stator core only ? And these are 4 cores in a row ?

- In another post you said that the stator was mounted in 3 sets of 3 plates. I do not understand how these are articulated with the series of 3 sets of 4. The connection of the coils, and the connection of the cores, would be different ? Can you enlighten please ?

- About, do you know if the EMA tested in Crosby (EMA2 or "purple" according to your analysis) were minor-coils and major-coil s? (Or just 3 reels similar rotor and stator.)

- And also, for the stator, how did you wired each side of the delta : 3 primary consecutive in serie ?


V About delta
- In the delta configuration we must necessarily shift the 3 signals in time. A delay line should, therefore. In this case the mysterious coils wound around the motor perfectly fulfill this function. They should strengthen essentially your assumption of the delta. What do you think about dear Spokane1 ?

- If yes (delay lines dedicated to timing pulses in delta mode), then we enter a matching system, as I evoked in my post of may 11. And the trick of a transformer between the generator and its target becomes quite natural. (In this case the calculation of right values of the coils becomes much easier since there is 1° subject to the match of the impedances and 2° we know the equation of pulse transformers, delay equation, impedance equation.)


VI "We still don't know what diameter wire was used"
- During your interview Nelson Schläft, who has rewound to #14 (1.63 mm) engines acquired by Al. Francoeur, has not he precised if the wire was
. . . . rather kind of car ignition coil? (~ 7/100e mm)
. . . . or rather to 20/100e mm as in many small engines ?
. . . . or between 1/2 and 1 mm as thou hast chosen for your test ?

- Personally I tried magnetic firing with coils son of all sizes : from 1 mm to 4/100e mm. Those that work best to 3000-5000 volts DC with some µF capacitors are in thin wires. The main problem is of course the duration. You are working on this for 10 years, and you gave us generously open the path. Me it's only 3 years, I plod by varying the parameters. (But still classic approach. And I've already burned two oscilloscopes, one with memory, accidentally touching the bare wire high voltage of an PFN.)


VII "between 1 to 8 milliseconds"
- (For the less specialized readers of the forum, you must know that the discharge of a capacitor through an inductor is subject to a amortization that makes oscillating.
If the wire resistance of the coil is large it stopped flapping, it then there is only one alone pulse.)

- (Be aware that if the duration of a magnetic shot is very brief, it becomes extremely powerful : under P=E/t, 1 joule gives easily megawatts. However the rotor will not move because of mechanical inertia.)

- If I look at a speed of 1100 rpm, and I calculate the time during which a stator core is opposite from its counterpart to the rotor, I found ~ 2.5 milliseconds. (This in the simple configuration 3 rotor coils / 3 stator coils.)

- I deduce that this size range already permitted a overunity to Marvin Cole, and a torque. (But taking many coils I'm drowning at the moment.)

- I always hesitate to take a big wire, increasing then the capacity in order to increase the duration, because with 3500 volts /1 uF is already paying 3500 * 3500 * 1 / 1000 000 = 12 joules for 1 shot 1 coil. This is far above the price paid among Crosby ... (but we touch here to the mystery)

- Perhaps the disposal delta of the rotor and stator allows to increase the duration of the arc ? I don't know, I don't understand what is the use of this delta here, it is a new information for me this connection. (I know that in the classic sinusoidal voltage, the current and the consumption are 3 times larger.) If you think to 85% that the rotor and stator are 2 deltas : I will try to make a montage delta end of june.


VIII Spark gap to discharge capa storage
- You wrote that it is the cores of coils that act as spark gap. Is it in addition that you use also independent spark gap, or only the cores ?


IX Variable capacitor
- Do you still think that the capacity between the rotor and stator is not something incidental, but are a part of Marvin Cole's innovations ?

- So there would be conservation of charge between the armatures that move away, and increasing the tension until the moment when the too high voltage makes a breakdown in the air.

- The teflon coating of the faces of the core is to protect against corrosion ? because with or without teflon the capacitance will remain nearly the same. And also, with 2 dielectrics (the 2nd being air) always the weakest that break, so in practice the teflon does not seem to affect the capacitive aspect (or so I'm wrong ? there is a secret ?)

- The maximum cap can not be high, say 5 nanofarad? Tension, it can be evaluated according to the length of the breakdown, so we can quantify the charge Q = V * C. We will be under millicoulomb, isn't ?

- For the moment I can not understand the true function of the variable capacitor. You dear Spokane1, how much coulomb do you evaluate the charge of the variable capacitor? (Is it necessary to consider other aspects such as the volume ? or the surface ?)



Forgive me for assail questions, my list has elongated and you will not have time to answer (and more they are not focused on CEST which is the subject of the forum, Aaron will scold me).

I am your humble student.
Affectionately,
Arker

[nat1971a]

I have been reading up on thyratrons whilst i am waiting for some replacements to be delivered and it appears that there is a start up procedure.

The proper procedure is to:

1. Apply voltage to the filament of the thyratron before applying HV to the plate
2. The filament needs to warm up according to the specs -: usually 30 seconds - 5 minutes depending on the tube specs

[Spokane1]

Details of Replication Cole Electromagnets

Dear Spokane1,

I thank you sincerely for your generosity.
And hopefully not too ennoy you with my new questions.

Dear Arker,

Pardon me for the delay in response but there has been a death in the family and my schedule has been disrupted.

I shall be glad to comment in detail on your technical questions as time and circumstances permit.

For now here are some photos of my first attempts at Marvin Cole electromagnet replications.

There are three electromagnets shown. The first one is a 1/2 length model of the Minor electromagnet constructed with the top electrostatic shield and the "dove tail" connection to the aluminum base plate. This design is difficult to construct.

The second and thrid electromagnets are machined without the top electrostatic shield and without the complect "dove tail" connections. The purpose of this change was to allow changing the coil form so that different winding ratios could be investagated. These two electromagnets were machined to full size models.

Using #19 AWG magnet wire throughout the "Minor" electromagnet has a measured inductance of 847.5 micro Henrey's and is composed of 90 turns.

The "Major" electromagnet is a transformer with a 1:1 ratio using 90 windings for both primary and secondary. The Inner winding has an inductance of 52.88 micro Henrey's. The outer winding has an inductance of 51.66 micro Henry's.

In my simulations based upon my proposed theory of operation I need more inductance - around 10 milli Henry's. Therefore I need to reduce the wire size and increase the number of turns.

Again I shall return to your questions in good time.

Mark McKay,PE

It looks like I've used up my memory limit for photos. I shall have to find out how to delete old photos to free up more room. Drop me an email at mmckay@simplexgrinnell.com and I shall send you the rest of the photos plus additional drawings.

[Arker]

inductance / replication of Marvin Cole's EMA4

Dear Spokane1,

Thank you for your precisions about my 1st post.
Let me submit to you a possible abnormality.

the "Minor" electromagnet has a measured inductance of 847.5 micro Henry's and is composed of 90 turns.

The "Major" electromagnet is a transformer with a 1:1 ratio using 90 windings for both primary and secondary. The Inner winding has an inductance of 52.88 micro Henry's. The outer winding has an inductance of 51.66 micro Henry's.

If you measured 0.85 milliH for your minor-coil on its core
you need to have almost the same (~ 1 milliH ?) for your major-coil,
primary like secondary, as they have all 90 laps.
(20 times less, it's probably a misprint as we all do ?)

(In this case, calculation by hand to reach 10 milliH to major-coil I found ~ 285 laps
#24 AWG wire.)

Affectionately,
Arker

[pranav2010]

my new video

hi aaron

i think i solved all problem of circuit and its all working well

watch my new video

YouTube - ‪my aaron three point correction‬‏

if you find any problem please tell me

have wonderful day

[Aaron]

Pranav's circuit

Hi Pranav, circuit looks great! Strong and stable!

Are you going to post a diagram so everyone can see how you made
it work?

I'm looking forward to seeing it power a coil.

[pranav2010]

video link

i post wrong link

YouTube - ‪my aaron three point correction‬‏

this is the correct one

[Aaron]

Pravan's circuit video

Pranav,

That is the same video as the last link.

[lamare]

According to Mr. Schlaft, when he started working for Gray the previous technician was using Thyratrons to trigger the motors. These tubes were driven with smaller vacuum tubes. "Rocky" then redesigned the whole system according to his ideas using higher current Ignitrons that were driven from the supply voltage via voltage regulated Zenar Diodes. He then proceeded to throw out all the previous Thyratron circuits.

[...]

My contention is that the Thyratrons were used as a purely classical HV switching means. The non-classical process took place elsewhere in the engine. My proposal is the stretched arc, which is a fairly complex process that needs a lot of further experimental workup before I get to stand on my soap box.

Anyway this is all I know about Gray and Thyratrons. I wish I had more details to share.

You may want to check out Eric Dollards introduction to Tesla coils, which you can find at my site:

Bestandsoverzicht van /pdf/Eric_Dollard_Document_Collection/

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_...esla+Coils.pdf
(Update: a better version: http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_...%20Dollard.pdf )

Page 3/4:

Contrary to popular belief, the Tesla transformer is not a steady state device but is a magnifier of transient phenomena. Also it does not behave like a L. C. network nor a transmission line, but more like a unique type of wave guide. If all parts of the system are designed properly the EMF and hence dielectric flux jumps from zero to an enourmous value almost instantaneously, thereby producing an almost inconceivable displacement current into space. The transformer is then basically a device for rapidly discharging the capacitor bank nearly instantly into free space, producing an enourmous dielectric shock wave similar to a sonic boom.

Page 13/14:

Due to the immense difficulties surrounding the spark device, a simple method and one of much greater control is shunt feed of the primary network by an A.M. radio transmitter of special design such as the unit at building number one. Due to the high impedance offered by the primary resonator the impedance effective of the tubes must be high and therefore must operate at high anode voltages. The electron emission however, must also be high, necessitating large cathodes and temperaturs. High anode {something} and large electron emission are usually of inverse relation in available vacuum tubes. Special pulse modulator vacuum tubes must be used. Hydrogen thyratrons might operate satisfactorally at low frequencies where the 1 microsecond deionization time will not hinder commutation. The most effective device for shunt feed may be the multipactor tube due to its strong negative resitance effects, but it is not clear if it will operate beyond 1000KC with much efficiency.

And his paper on the oscillating current transformer: http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_...%20Dollard.pdf

Page 1-3:

Fundamentals of coil induction

Consiter the elemental slice of a coil shown in fig. 1. Between the turns 1,2 & 3 of the coiled conductor exists a complex electric wave consisting of two basic components. In one component (fig. 2), the lines of magnetic and dielectric flux cross at right angles, producing a photon flux perpendicular to these crossings, hereby propagating energy along the gap, parallel to the conductors and around the coil. This is the transverse electro-magnetic wave. In the other component, shown in fig. 3, the lines of magnetic flux do not cross but unite along the same axis, perpendicular to the coil conductors, hereby energy is conveyed along the coil axis. This is the Longitudinal Magneto-Dielectric Wave.

Hence, two distinct forms of energy flow are present in the coiled conductor, propagating at right angles with respect to each other, as shown in fig. 4. Herby a resultant wave is produced which propagates around the coil in a helical fashion, leading the transverse wave between the conductors. Thus the oscillating coil posses a complex wavelength which is shorter than the wavelength of the coiled conductor.

Furthermore, the Corums have some very interesting papers about Tesla coils and the modeling thereof, which undoubdetly helps in understanding Gray's stuff:

Bestandsoverzicht van /pdf/Reference_Material/Corum/

This one is particularly interesting:
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...ding_Waves.pdf
http://www.mtt-serbia.org.rs/microwa...-07-JCorum.pdf

By modeling a wire-wound coil as an anisotropically conducting cylindrical boundary, one may start from Maxwell’s equations and deduce the structure’s resonant behavior. Not only can the propagation factor and characteristic impedance be determined for such a helically disposed surface waveguide, but also its resonances, “self-capacitance” (so-called), and its voltage magnification by standing waves. Further, the Tesla coil passes to a conventional lumped element inductor as the helix is electrically shortened.

Also see:
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...nna_Theory.pdf

[Guest]

Pranav

I'm seeing that you've built a series of diodes on the variac side to
punch the HV plasma into shorting out the LV side cap bank, impressive
as it appears to be four plastics in series.

Thank you for sharing, I hope in the future you will capture on
video what effect its output has on the cathode of a 12V battery used
to power it.

By what means are you triggering the event to take place?

[FrancLand]

Just a video with schematics about gray circuit explanation :

YouTube - ‪Edwin Gray Circuit Explanation With Zpe Free Energy schematics‬‏