Gray Tube Replication

[Spokane1]

Non-Classical Energy Storage Models

So, we end up with something propagating along a wire with an enormous speed and an enormous dE/dt, for which WE have to pay ZERO in terms of energy...


And IMHO that something flowing around your wires is what we used to call the (a)ether. In the video's posted above you can see this "aether flow" can be "stored" in (or better: directed by) a dielectric and can be directed trough space as well...

Dear lamare,

Dr. Tesla used the term "Mass" because his "particles" could easily transfer inertia to a Radiometer. I know that other models explain this (but not very well). Now, if these particles actually have mass in the classical sense, well that is open for discussion, or actually experimentation.

Charge clusters have mass since they are proposed to be a collection of classical electrons. I don't know if their velocity of propagation has been determined.

Anyway, could you elaborate more on your concept as to how this high speed "something" can be made to be stored in a dielectric and then extracted? I would even be interested in your best guess.

Also, from your analysis of Eric Dollard's work, is there any evidence that this "something" has a huge associated magnetic flux with it? Does this "something" oppose itself, or a PM field, to produce a physical force that you know of?

Thanks for all of the additional reference material to explain your concepts. It will take me some time to digest all this.

Mark McKay

[Core]

Good find Lamare!

....Of course the bottom line is to just do the simple experiment with a triode as shown in the patent to see if the battery voltage is available at the anode when the control grid is triggered. If so, then it is possible that that triode placement is an honest depiction but even if it works - there is no unconventional result that arises from this placement - my prediction.

This debate has been going on for some time regarding the direction of the diode. It's been stated on numerous occasions that patents are reconfigured to protect the invention further, maybe that's true. But the question is: If the triode is purposely inverted in an attempt to deceive, what's to say that the other components are in the correct position also? or wired correctly? Also does everyone agree that the description of the circuit, as written, is 100% correct?

What has perplexed me for some time has been the 'Carbon' on the LV probe. What if the components shown on the patent are correct but the placement is wrong? As an example, could it be possible that the grid is connected to ground? and the HV probe is not feed by DC but AC? If this were the case we create an ozone generator in the tube. Now, ozone is a very powerful oxidizer and can be easily broken apart back to O2 and created with HV. What is compelling to me is what carbon does in the presence of ozone. Carbon will attract O3 and break it down. Perhaps this is the roll of the carbon block in the device.

When carbon attracts and breaks down the O3 to O2 there is an energy exchange. Because energy is being removed there will also be a temperature change (and a change from O3 to O2 will also have a air density change). Regardless if one component is reconfigured to deceive it would be a fair assumption that others are as well. I have yet to try the above. Maybe I'll give it a shot. Anyway just a thought.

Keep up the good work guys!

-Core

[Aaron]

Ed Gray patents

This debate has been going on for some time regarding the direction of the diode. It's been stated on numerous occasions that patents are reconfigured to protect the invention further, maybe that's true. But the question is: If the triode is purposely inverted in an attempt to deceive, what's to say that the other components are in the correct position also? or wired correctly? Also does everyone agree that the description of the circuit, as written, is 100% correct?

What has perplexed me for some time has been the 'Carbon' on the LV probe. What if the components shown on the patent are correct but the placement is wrong? As an example, could it be possible that the grid is connected to ground? and the HV probe is not feed by DC but AC? If this were the case we create an ozone generator in the tube. Now, ozone is a very powerful oxidizer and can be easily broken apart back to O2 and created with HV. What is compelling to me is what carbon does in the presence of ozone. Carbon will attract O3 and break it down. Perhaps this is the roll of the carbon block in the device.

When carbon attracts and breaks down the O3 to O2 there is an energy exchange. Because energy is being removed there will also be a temperature change (and a change from O3 to O2 will also have a air density change). Regardless if one component is reconfigured to deceive it would be a fair assumption that others are as well. I have yet to try the above. Maybe I'll give it a shot. Anyway just a thought.

Keep up the good work guys!

-Core

@Core

You're right - there actually isn't anything to say that anything in the entire patent is even relevant as far as we know - but there is quite a bit of evidence from witnesses that jive with some of what the patents say. Mark is the top authority on the reality of what was being done and how the patents fit into it. There are simply too many unknowns to know what the technology actually is.

However, going literally by the patent diagrams and Ron Cole/John Bedini's eye witness examination of one of the motors, my plasma ignition method actually works according to John's diagrams and gives some unconventional results with the plasma, accelerated cap discharge speed, etc... so I'm led to believe most of the patent diagrams show at least the main principles involved. There is one particular line in the common patent that I think is bogus but not going to mention it yet until I can experiment more.

Ron Cole and John Bedini saw the carbon resistor on the LV rod inside the tube so I would have to say it is like depicted in the patent - at least for the timeframe that they used this tube method, which doesn't seem to be too long according to Mark - but the timeframe between Zetex and the US patents on the tube system seem to be a couple years apart - so if they only used the tube method for 6 months or whatever, why repatent it several years apart? I might have my time frame wrong - not looking at my notes. I think Mark knows the chronology like the back of his hand.

[Spokane1]

The CEST - In the Beginning

Dear Aaron,

You bring up a lot of good points about the CEST.

The main thing I would like to add about the direction of the diode and the Bedini Field Notes in general is that these were composed from memory by Ron Cole after he and John Bedini had left the Gray shop in 1973. He was not allowed to take notes on site, otherwise Gray's 2nd wife Renata would have freaked out.

The degree of detail shown on these drawings just amazes me for such a complete circuit to have been drafted completly from memory and be so close to the circuit that was patented in 1978 and later in 1984.

Furthermore, John Bedini has a specific comment about that diode. He told me once that Mr. Cole kept changing the polarity of that diode on his drawings in an attempt to figure out what Gray and company were doing. Apparently, one theory he was working on involved some kind of Zener diode effect.

We probably will never know what the original circuit had.

For us, right now, the direction of the diode depends upon how we intend the circuit to be used. If we go with the dual supply plasma discharge idea then the diode has to be reversed. If we consider the Phinney low power pilot switching arc concept then the diode has to be installed as the patent shows.

Both ideas have merit.

Righ now, I believe that the CEST device was not fed pure classical electricity but rather some mixture of classical and non-classical energies. To date all of the non-funded research has been with various reproduction CEST's fed straight classical energy - in hopes that a non-classical conversion would take place at this point. I'm not so sure. IF non-classical energy were applied in the original device then its response would be beyond our present technical understanding.

An interesting subject to be sure.

Mark McKay

[lamare]

Yesterday, I studied Wheatstone's experiment more closely.

Tuks DrippingPedia : Wheatstone Experiments To Measure The Velocity Of Electricity

It is very interesting, indeed. Very cool how he managed to measure the rotation speed of his shaft:

It was a point of essential importance to determine the angular velocity of the axle carrying the mirror. No confidence could be placed in the result obtained by calculating the train of wheels, as in such rapid motion many retarding causes might operate and render the calculation uncertain : it was necessary, therefore, to devise a means independent of these sources of error, and which should immediately indicate the ultimate velocity. Nothing appeared more likely to effect this purpose than to attach a small syren to the instrument, the plate of which should be carried round by the axle of the mirror.

[...]

The difficulty was at last overcome by employing the arm Q itself to produce the sound. A small slip of paper was held to it ; and as at every revolution a blow was given to the paper, its rapid recurrence gave rise to a sound the pitch of which varied with the velocity of the motion. When the machinery was put in motion with the maximum velocity I employed in my experiments, the sound G#4 was obtained, indicating 800 revolutions of the mirror in a second. I am not aware that anything can have interfered with the accuracy of this result ; the same sound was heard when different pieces of paper or card were used ; and on moderating the velocity, the sound descended through all the degrees of the scale below it, until distinct percussions were perceived.

That is just awesome!


Anyway, I studied the article a bit further and there is an important detail: you have take into account the fact that the current, shockwave or whatever it is, consists of TWO pulses, NOT ONE. You get one pulse traveling from the positive pole of the HV cap trough the spark gap to the long wire (or coil), and one from the negative.

This may give us an important clue. You see, we are trained to consider currents to flow from the positive terminal to the negative. Wheatstone's experiment shows that with these high voltage transient impulses generated by a spark gap, you get TWO pulses, traveling from BOTH terminals of your source along your wire/coil/whatever circuit at the same time.

Now the question is: what is the nature of these transient pulses?

Are these transient pulses such that they oppoze one another in your coil and cancel one another out, or do they not??

Normally, you would expect a positive (aether expanding) pulse propagating from the positive terminal, and a negative (aether contracting) pulse propagating from the negative terminal of your HV cap, which reach the oppozing terminals of your coils (almost) simultaneously and thus add up and strengthen one another. This is what you expect with "normal" ("non-transient" or "steady state" in Steinmetz' terms) current.

However, it may also be that the aether itself is actually under high pressure in your HV cap, and that this aether pressure is suddenly released like an exploision in all directions at the moment the spark gap breaks. If that is correct, you do get two "positive" (aether expanding, explosive) pulses propagating along your wires, which reach the terminals of your coil (almost) simultaneously and do cancel one another out, so nothing interesting happens.

I realise that this suggest that you also would not get a spark, but with spark gaps you have open ends, whereon these impulses may very well reflect and then a mismatch in wire length of just a few cm may be enough (given the high bandwidth of the spark gap) to create a spark anyway, while with a closed connection in the middle of a coil, the pulses continue to propagate in the direction they already had and thus (continue to) oppoze one another.

I know, speculation all over..

It is very hard to work this out "on paper" or "in your head", but it seems to me that you may very well need to split the coil in two (more or less) equal halves in order to be able to use these "Wheatstone" pulses for energizing a coil.

I have modified the image of the 3,890,548 patent to show what I mean:

Of course, I can't tell if this is true or not without an experiment. It may be nothing, it may also turn out to a very important key into understanding Gray's technology...

Feel free to try and find out.

I left the part of the transformer marked as "HF choke" in the picture, but that may not be necessary.


Here you can find the patent the picture originates from:
US Patent 3,890,548 Edwin Gray "Pulsed Capacitor Discharge Electric Engine"

[nat1971a]

Hi guys,

I am back. I have been testing my hybrid gray/tesla circuit again with paralleled thyratrons and have managed to get the capacitor that is connected to the grids charging when the commutator is engaged. Although only a very small amount. Looks like i will need to generate a smaller pulse than i currently am

I am currently using a dual pole relay as my commutator and when i engaged the relay on the weekend a small tingling sensation was felt in my hands at every make and break of the circuit. It wasnt doing this when i tested it originally. Any way i thought i would report on it. Could it be this is the shock wave Tesla talked about...don't know.......maybe...who knows....

I also felt it on the plastic battery casing of the relay battery. Quite odd.

Cheers
N.

[Aaron]

schematic?

Nat, do you have a full schematic?

[nat1971a]

Here's my circuit. The dual pole relay is powered by 24vdc and manually engaged.

[Spokane1]

Tesla/Gray Circuits

Here's my circuit. The dual pole relay is powered by 24vdc and manually engaged.

Dear Nat,

I'm working on a similiar circuit. I shall get a schematic together later this week and we can compare notes. I'm using a 0.015" gap instead of the Thyratron, but I'm exploring the coupled coil concept like you are.

Mark McKay

[nat1971a]

Mark,

ok sounds good. look forward to it

Nat

[Spokane1]

FFF Exploration Circuits

Dear Nat,

This is just a preliminary circuit to learn about what is going on in these kinds of circuits.

The present model concept is that the E.V.Gray technology is a Tesla transmitter-receiver type of device. The disclosed patent power supply design is missing several components. There are two mirrored circuits that alternately act as transmitter/receiver on alternate cycles. The anomalous energy (assumed to be some kind of storable particle) is harvested into the 5 uf capacitors. The FFF acts as a single turn primary when transmitting and as a single turn secondary when receiving.

The CEST device was used as a second stage process that will not function unless a certain amount of non-classical energy is fed to it. But until we can generate some amount of the non-classical energy then research with any form of CEST will have to wait.

This circuit is a simple spark Tesla coil oscillator. The tuning capacitor is a 10-200 pF variable vacuum capacitor. The gap is a automotive spark plug (non-resistor) gapped to 0.015". Excitation voltage is supplied by a chopped NST running at 5 kV and current limited to 19 mA.

This attempt was to see if any sort of energy, measurable with a 1 kV electrostatic volt meter, would show up in the storage capacitor of this one wire receiver. So far nothing was observed (as expected)

The FFF is composed of 10 turns of RG-6 wound around a 4" PVC pipe. The shield is not used and is isolated.

The results were interesting as far as the mode of oscillation. This is not a harmonic oscillator so RLC calculations do not have an impact in this setup. This is a relaxation oscillator that sweeps a range from 2 to 42 KHz in an RF burst.

The first discharge is just what you would expect. The variable capacitor charges to 5000 kV and the spark plug breaks down and current begins to flow through the FFF. Then the interesting thing happens. The sudden current pulse causes the FFF inductance to generate a back EMF potential to resist the current flow. This new reverse potential quickly quenches the arc, so the capacitor does not discharge all the way but is left about half full of unused potential. Now the process starts over again, except the striking potential has been reduced because of an existing ion cloud in the gap. This striking potential starts cold at 5 kV then after about 30 discharges stabilizes at about 2500 V. Overall the breakdowns start slow and then speed up. In this circuit the oscillations don't slow down at the end of the cycle but just quit when the voltage from the NST drops below the charge on the timing capacitor. Therefore the timing capacitor is already near full charge at the start of the next cycle.

The 5 uF storage capacitor charges up to 2700 V in about 3 seconds. This is a real silent arc. Once the circuit is turned off and the storage capacitor is charged then another interesting thing happens. Now the storage capacitor discharges back through spark plug in s series of much slower (3-5 Hz)and very weak sparks, however they still can be seen faintly. I suppose the timimg capacitor limits the discharge current. I wonder why the breakdown voltage in this mode is so much lower than in the powered mode. So much to observe.

I have never seen this kind of action before. Generally Tesla coils use larger capacitors (around .01 uF) and I'm sure that changes the physics of the arc so that it will completely discharge. In this application the value of the components are so small that a completely different mode of oscillation can be observed.

So far I'm just messing around. To do this right I need two power supplies, so I shall be collecting components to accomplish that. If you like I can post a scope trace of a single RF burst as observed by the oscilloscope.

Mark McKay

[Aaron]

pdf

Hi Mark,

I opened your pdf and it only has text but no lines visible. Not sure it if is my reader or not.

[nat1971a]

mark,

Interesting experiment. Well done. Thanks for sharing. The problem i see with trying to reproduce this elusive radiant energy is the incredible sharp shutoff of the spark required to have it manifest.

We need to focus all effort on trying to understand and replicate the ways Tesla was using and Gray was using to abruptly shutoff the spark.

My experiments so far indicate the following as i believe i have seen it on a couple of occasions but only very briefly:-

1. alternating current on the grid of thyratron will shut off the spark quick enough but i destroyed the thyratons in the process. i.e they stopped working shortly there after. Now i am not very skilled in the art so this means someone could probably get this to work. I may even spend more time on this aspect

2. Magnetic quenching. I have tried this on several occasions and have had no joy with this method. Only to be used with low frequency circuit

3. Warm air to blow out the circuit. Haven't tried this

4. Gray was using mercury vapour ignitrons. This must be the way that gray was able to abruptly shutoff the spark. I have also seen Tesla using mercury vapour tubes. So this will also need to be investigated and most likely the best way

cheers
Nat

P.s that effect i described earlier has now stopped just as mysteriously as it started

[Spokane1]

FFF Exploration Circuits

Dear Aaron,

Here is a jpg of the same drawing. I opened the pdf and the lines showed up fine. This just shows you how hard it is to keep up with all of Acrobat’s revisions.

Dear Nat,

What kind of transition times are you thinking of; Voltage, current or both? The current transition in any loop is limited by the total inductance. Voltage transitions can be a lot quicker. In this case we are not going to get much faster than about 10 nano seconds (100 mHz) since this is the typical process time of an arc. Anything faster than this will require solid state switching devices. There is no evidence that solid state devices were used outside of the power supply in the E.V. Gray technology. The transistors in the last power supply ever built were (or appear to be slow NPN darlington designs).

We know Dr. Tesla used arcs exclusively. He might have come up with a frequency doubling scheme - but I haven't seen it yet.

I shall get some high speed traces of my present oscillator and we can use them as a starting point.

I didn't show it on my schematic but I also had the wide band Pearson current transformer on the low side of the FFF. The very short current pulses are single AC pulses around 2-4 Amps peak each . I'm not sure why this is. The Voltage transitions are DC pulses. By rights if the loop current is AC then the storage capacitor should not charge with DC, but it does and somewhat quickly.

These kinds of circuits certainly dip into my well of ignorance.

Mark McKay

[nat1971a]

I guess I should elaborate some more on what I have seen in my current circuit. The capacitor connected to the grids presently registered a charge anywhere from 1-17vdc. In my previous experiments when applying AC to the grids of thyratrons I have seen the odd charge of between 50 and on one ocassion 100vdc was registered. But developing a circuit thatis reliable is very elusive. So grays circuit appears to be essentially correct but requires extreme precision in abruptly turning off the spark on the low voltage side. I don't believe modern day electronics will cut it. There could even be some special properties in the mercury in the ignitrons that is required for. lusive radiant energy to appear

Nat