Gray Tube Replication

[Arker]

The copper sheets of the EMA-7

(Extract of your post #2808)
This third winding is probably not an inductive winding but a high current low value capacitor - since it is composed of sheet copper foil like the main primary windings are. (5 Turns total - the individual copper sheets are 2.7" x 60" x 0.020" - which is too thick)

Dear Mark,

I never thought these words relate to your own replication ?

The questions in the second part of my post #2823 did not concern your replication. I wanted to know more about the original, on the weird coil built by Hack in Blue Engine ("The copper inside Blue Engine supply") ...

As for the answer to the upper part of my post #2823, whose I thank you, and that right away has lighted me, I'll write you another post (tomorrow morning because now my wife called me to diner).


Best regards,
Arker

[Spokane1]

The Hackenberger Transformer

Dear Mark,

I never thought these words relate to your own replication ?

The questions in the second part of my post #2823 did not concern your replication. I wanted to know more about the original, on the weird coil built by Hack in Blue Engine ("The copper inside Blue Engine supply") ...

As for the answer to the upper part of my post #2823, whose I thank you, and that right away has lighted me, I'll write you another post (tomorrow morning because now my wife called me to diner).


Best regards,
Arker

Dear Arker,

My mistake. There are about three photos that show some details of the transformer of what I think was the last power supply built. I have used up all my blog space for photos so I can't post them here. I think they are important pieces of information. Perhaps you can see additional things that I have overlooked. I have additional photos of the controller card that I have replaced with a modern IC PWM. My guess is that this device was fabricated in 1979, perhaps you might have a better idea from looking at the components.

I shall send the photos to you in an email tomorrow along with a description as to where to look.

I will be glad to send the same photos to anybody else who is reading this blog. mmckay@simplexgrinnell.com

Mark McKay

[Aaron]

Gray Tube experiments

Note the green color is NOT dependent on electrode material type. It seems placing the inductor in line causes the green color and does help with the plasma energy ..

I havn't tried putting an inductor in the positive HV side of the gap, as this would be problematic due to the HV, although a large air cored coil might work.

Next step is to see what effect connecting the inductor to a 12v battery +ve does to the energy in the spark, and also the addition of a resistor and/or graphite block on the LV side

To help with this testing I will use a home-built "longitudinal wave" detector, so I can see what my changes are doing (modified microwave detector) ..

Cheers,
Bernie.

Glad you're sharing your experiments here, thank you!

You got that right, nothing to do with electrode material. I can't tell you how many people tried to convince me the green was from the copper when I get both of these from the identical material:



I have seen no difference putting the inductor on the positive side, it still works the same according to my experiments.

Also have never seen a difference using carbon resistors, etc... even drilled out some solid carbon electrodes to use as resistors and no difference, but it was a crude build so not sure.

If you can get a 12v or even 24v battery or bank to be the LV source, that is what I'd love to see.

[Aaron]

spark gap discharge

I wanted to shorten the arc time by magnetic quenching the spark

When the high current connects with the high voltage over the same gap, you are already getting a serious time compressed discharge. The plasma burst there that you see is bigger than the HV spark or a straight shorted cap put together.

If you scope your cap, you should see this - so fast that any magnetic quenching probably can't add anything significant but a scope will tell you. Mixing the hv low current with lv and high current over the gap causes a very high watt discharge that appears faster than normal.

Would love to see scope shots with and without magnetic quenching of the cap discharge.

[Aaron]

Lorentz Force

Hello Bernie, the green plasma that burst several centimeters is definitely caused by lorentz force from magnet that interact with plasma current. 1 cm diameter plasma ball is quite big for 166nF capacitor charged to 3KV, what is the type of capacitor and where did you get it ?

Wicaksono

In the 70's NASA was doing experiments with the plasma jet ignition and were using the Lorentz Force intentionally to propel the plasma from the ignitor deep into the combustion chamber.

Here are a few pics of some plasma balls ejecting from the gap:


Ground strap in normal position

Ground strap in vertical position
to open up the gap really big.

[Aaron]

short pulse time

Regarding the caps, Tesla stated that it was all in the capacitors, they are the key to getting maximum effect, he spent a lot of time perfecting capacitors to get high discharge pulse currents ... we have the ability now to create some impressive capacitor banks compared to his time ... i.e. my cap bank is only 20mohm ESR total and can dump 800 Amps (800A @ 3Kv is 2.4MW peak power !!) This assumes large small leads to the spark gap .. ( strips of copper is good)

NOTE: Don't get hung up on capacitance values ... the capacitance value is not the key, it's all about pulse current for a SHORT time ..

Cheers,
Bernie

Bernie,

You got that right, however, if you trigger a lower voltage cap to discharge over the gap with a higher voltage, it is automatically FASTER than a typical Tesla type disruptive discharge such as a peaking cap, etc...

It is short pulse time, but the plasma that is made from this type of concept is made possible because of the super short time already, but you're right - the capacitance isn't the key.

It is associating the current from the low voltage with a high voltage that is normally isn't associated with so the moment the dielectric breakdown voltage of the gap is met with the high voltage initiating spark, the relatively high current even from a 1uf cap goes over and accelerates to the higher voltage that it normally would never be associated with. You can see it on a scope.

[Aaron]

from the aether

the ENERGY we want is not coming from the the pulse energy, the only reason for the pulse is to stimulate the Aether into producing the energy for us ... to do that, we want to give a short hard hit!

I agree with that too. Because of the very fast discharge that is made possible by mixing high current with high voltage over the gap, it instantly creates a very sharp gradient (dipole) that causes an in-rush of polarized aether at the points of the gap and moves over the wires to cause even more current that is accelerated over the gap that is not possible with the current made possible by the dipole of the cap itself.

It is a form of energy synthesis. Anyone can see the high voltage spark and anyone can short the gap and see the puny spark, but put the together and make the cap discharge faster than it normally can and you not only mix the high current and high voltage, you get a "synthetic" byproduct that you can visually see - straight from the aether.

[bmentink]

Glad you're sharing your experiments here, thank you!

You got that right, nothing to do with electrode material. I can't tell you how many people tried to convince me the green was from the copper when I get both of these from the identical material:

I have seen no difference putting the inductor on the positive side, it still works the same according to my experiments.

Also have never seen a difference using carbon resistors, etc... even drilled out some solid carbon electrodes to use as resistors and no difference, but it was a crude build so not sure.

If you can get a 12v or even 24v battery or bank to be the LV source, that is what I'd love to see.

Hi Aaron,

Yes, I saw no effect by adding resistors .. havn't tried the graphite block yet.
Currently I have the LV at GND, I did try a 12v led acid battery with the positive to LV, but although the battery voltage did go up slightly, I did not see any major change to the plasma ..

[bmentink]

In the 70's NASA was doing experiments with the plasma jet ignition and were using the Lorentz Force intentionally to propel the plasma from the ignitor deep into the combustion chamber.

Here are a few pics ...

Wow they are very white plasma ... mine is totally different, green and about the size of the 1st one ..

I just tried a pancake coil as my inductor .. even faster larger plasma and gave me a thumping headache ...
I guess it's from the strong pulsating magnetic field ..... can't wait to get my thryratron and get the frequency up to the
"safe/pleasant" levels that Tesla documented ... I.e above 10Khz ..

Concidering I am only putting 20w power in ... this is pretty amazing stuff ..

[Aaron]

carbon and battery

Hi Aaron,

Yes, I saw no effect by adding resistors .. havn't tried the graphite block yet.
Currently I have the LV at GND, I did try a 12v led acid battery with the positive to LV, but although the battery voltage did go up slightly, I did not see any major change to the plasma ..

The carbon I used was from some carbon welding rod that was wrapped in copper. I unrolled that and used a slice of it and drilled a hole to slip the copper electrode in. One thing I never tried was silvering the electrode tip, which is what John Bedini and Ron Cole saw when they visited Gray.

I'm convinced that the amount of current punch that can come from a battery or bank of batteries acting as a lv source will take things to a whole other level but I think the cap discharge has to be something quite a bit more ferocious than what I was using in order to ionize the gap enough to make it conductive enough for a battery to follow over.

[bmentink]

When the high current connects with the high voltage over the same gap, you are already getting a serious time compressed discharge. The plasma burst there that you see is bigger than the HV spark or a straight shorted cap put together.

If you scope your cap, you should see this - so fast that any magnetic quenching probably can't add anything significant but a scope will tell you. Mixing the hv low current with lv and high current over the gap causes a very high watt discharge that appears faster than normal.

Would love to see scope shots with and without magnetic quenching of the cap discharge.

Not sure about the above, without magnetic quenching I get a 1cm plasma ball, with magnetic quenching I get more than 2cm AND faster spark rate which proves that quenching is shortening the discharge time as per Tesla ..

NOTE: I am not mixing in LV at the moment, just HV to GND ...

what scope shots do you want? Do you want capacitor voltage or inductor current ..
I will see what I can do .. might have to borrow a digital scope from work, as my 200 mhz scope does not have recording abilities ..

cheers,
Bernie

[bmentink]

I'm convinced that the amount of current punch that can come from a battery or bank of batteries acting as a lv source will take things to a whole other level but I think the cap discharge has to be something quite a bit more ferocious than what I was using in order to ionize the gap enough to make it conductive enough for a battery to follow over.

hi Aaron,

I am not convinced on the LV current HV voltage mixing thing. Tesla had a dipole consisting of a capacitor to the ionosphere (negative) and a GND connection (positive), I believe that the +ve of the battery to the LV is just instead of a GND (earth) connection .. the earth is acting as a source of positive ions just as a battery is .....

Bernie

[Wicaksono]

Hi Wicaksono,

I found it was the combination of the inductor in the LV side PLUS the opposing magnetic field that caused the effect .. the inductor delays the electron flow which allows the plasma to form with more energy.

As per my original post, I made a capacitor bank from some high quality 1uF 1Kv caps and put them all in series, the key is the QUALITY i.e. ESR rating and pulse current handling and low inductance especially .. I will find out the part no and post it when I find the copy of the part order....

Regarding the caps, Tesla stated that it was all in the capacitors, they are the key to getting maximum effect, he spent a lot of time perfecting capacitors to get high discharge pulse currents ... we have the ability now to create some impressive capacitor banks compared to his time ... i.e. my cap bank is only 20mohm ESR total and can dump 800 Amps (800A @ 3Kv is 2.4MW peak power !!) This assumes large small leads to the spark gap .. ( strips of copper is good)

NOTE: Don't get hung up on capacitance values ... the capacitance value is not the key, it's all about pulse current for a SHORT time ..

Cheers,
Bernie

Yes Bernie, I can't agree more ! This is an important thing to everyone that are going to replicate Gray / Tesla experiment, that you can't do it with low quality capacitor. I myself am using standard electrolyte capacitors, and I never have that size of plasma ball by using the same value of capacitors. I also found that after a couple minutes of pulsing, the capacitor gone to "half broke", that its capacitance fall to negligible value. If you have any trouble after a lot of pulsing, please check your capacitors value. And what is the inductance and resistance value of LV inductor ?

Wicaksono

[bmentink]

Hey guys,

Just want to talk a bit about the green color of the plasma I am getting and Aaron is getting.

Since it is documented that the ionized state of hydrogen emites a purple color and the super excited state of the Hydrogen atom .. the Rydeberg atom is green, then maybe that is where the color is coming from. I definetely know that I was originally getting a purple plasma, then on introduction of the inductor and magnetic quenching got the large green plasma .. so maybe the green indicates this super excited state ..

This statement from wikipedia:

The large separation between the electron and ion-core in a Rydberg atom makes possible an extremely large electric dipole moment, d. There is an energy associated with the presence of an electric dipole in an electric field, F, known in atomic physics as a Stark shift,

Note the statement "extremely large dipole moment" ..... something to think about ..


Bernie

EDIT by the way Aaron ... my green plasma is "every" discharge, not occasionally like in your video ... I think the magnetic quenching is the difference .. and maybe the cap quality, I dont know what caps you are using ..

[Wicaksono]

spark rate and magnet strength

Not sure about the above, without magnetic quenching I get a 1cm plasma ball, with magnetic quenching I get more than 2cm AND faster spark rate which proves that quenching is shortening the discharge time as per Tesla ..

Actually this shortening of discharge time is caused by plasma blown away by lorentz force. If no magnets are used, the capacitor will be full discharged because there is nothing to stop the current after it start to flow. With the magnets, the current will only flow until a limit where lorentz force is strong enough to blow the plasma. The capacitor will then still have residual voltage in it, so the time needed to charge it to full voltage will be lower than if it fully discharged. You can see this from oscilloscope display of the current, if the magnet strength is changed then the current limit will be changed and also the spark rate.

Wicaksono