Gray Tube Replication

[Spokane1]

New Current Sensor

Dear Mr. McKay, I think I have something to patch the blank area from DC to 3kHz of current probe bandwidth; it is called "linear current sensor". Here is a sample of series of current sensor made by Honeywell :
Honeywell Sensing and Control Product Search
These linear current sensor is used in industrial motor drive to control torque of motor, since motor current is linear function of torque. AFAIK their price is not as high as Lecroy probe.

Wicaksono

Dear Wiccaksono,

That is a new transducer that I was not aware of. At $54 new from Mouser it would fit into my monthly research budget.

However its response time is 3 uS. That means that the capacitor discharges I look at are over and done with in about 1 uS. So this device probably would not have the time to generate an observable output before the event was over. For near steady state or signals below about 5 kHz. this would be the ticket. But I haven't run across that slow of a signal in the Gray technology, yet. My present replication converter is presently running at 79 kHz. in order to get it into the resonate region.


Thanks for the information. I'm keeping a copy of the data sheet in my instrument folder. Who knows when I might need something like this.

Mark McKay

[Wicaksono]

another linear current sensor

Dear Wiccaksono,

That is a new transducer that I was not aware of. At $54 new from Mouser it would fit into my monthly research budget.

However its response time is 3 uS. That means that the capacitor discharges I look at are over and done with in about 1 uS. So this device probably would not have the time to generate an observable output before the event was over. For near steady state or signals below about 5 kHz. this would be the ticket. But I haven't run across that slow of a signal in the Gray technology, yet. My present replication converter is presently running at 79 kHz. in order to get it into the resonate region.


Thanks for the information. I'm keeping a copy of the data sheet in my instrument folder. Who knows when I might need something like this.

Mark McKay

This is another datasheet of linear current sensor for your collection, this time from LEM
http://www.digikey.com/Web%2520Expor...al-catalog.pdf

Wicaksono

[bmentink]

Yes indeed Mr. McKay, this is my only method - the cheap carbon resistor as current to voltage converter. Frankly this is what made me stuck, since I was expecting to see the capacitor discharge current. Instead I only have random non-periodic current pulse ala "hay field display". I am hoping that Bernie could see something in his LV inductor current, my experiment so far has been a tough luck.

Wicaksono

Hi Wicaksono,

Havn't had much luck measuring the current yet, I will borrow the new current prope from my work .. hopefully it will have a fast enough response.

In the meantime I am building up my driver circuit for the Thyratron that should arrive soon ..
I am hoping to switch in <5ns

Bernie

[Wicaksono]

another linear current sensor

Dear Wiccaksono,

That is a new transducer that I was not aware of. At $54 new from Mouser it would fit into my monthly research budget.

However its response time is 3 uS. That means that the capacitor discharges I look at are over and done with in about 1 uS. So this device probably would not have the time to generate an observable output before the event was over. For near steady state or signals below about 5 kHz. this would be the ticket. But I haven't run across that slow of a signal in the Gray technology, yet. My present replication converter is presently running at 79 kHz. in order to get it into the resonate region.


Thanks for the information. I'm keeping a copy of the data sheet in my instrument folder. Who knows when I might need something like this.

Mark McKay

And this is another series of current sensor from VAC :
Active Current Sensors for maximum accuracy - VACUUMSCHMELZE GmbH & Co. KG

Wicaksono

[Spokane1]

Thyratron Support Components

Hi Wicaksono,

Havn't had much luck measuring the current yet, I will borrow the new current prope from my work .. hopefully it will have a fast enough response.

In the meantime I am building up my driver circuit for the Thyratron that should arrive soon ..
I am hoping to switch in <5ns

Bernie

Dear Bernie,

That is going to be some blazing switching times. I was wondering about the other needed support components you plan to use to make things work. As you know in Gray's 1986 patent he showed no provisions for a heater connection. Some say he was running the Thyratron cold and using it as an arc tube. (If they knew that much about the circuit operation I would have liked to have talk to them at length just to determine how they come to know that) I really doubt that it was running cold, but who knows? Assuming you are considering using the heater I was wondering what you are going to use for the huge high current, low voltage, high isolation value transformer. The few surplus units I have picked up are big and heavy (say 3 lbs. or so). Perhaps you plan to use a dedicated battery with a dropping resistor or a Transistor regulator. There are several options and I was wondering which route you planed to go.

Also, how are you going to drive the "Grid"? The 1986 patent shows a mechanical grounded grid approach, which will probably work but I don't see how you would get the switching time you are looking for using that method. Thus, I assumed you are probably going to use something more active? Perhaps some kind of vacuum tube driver circuit. These days you could probably get by with a HV IGBT driver - but I don't know. Again many options.

Then there is the issue of re-ionization time. I understand that Thyratrons need a certain amount of relaxation time before they can fire again. This limits their frequency response. But then again I suppose you are looking for proof of principle at the moment and not an actual motor/engine drive that operates near 200 pps.

Are you going to have all of the storage capacitor energy go through your CEST and Thyratron? I have wondered how that would work for a long duration and what kind of impact that would have on the backend battery.
We know that the Gray team had problems with exploding batteries and that would be a possible reason as to why.

Anyway, I would certainly enjoy continue reading about your advancements. I don't recall anyone else using a thyratron in driving a CSET - at least not within the last few years.

Mark McKay

[Spokane1]

Linear Current Transducerss

And this is another series of current sensor from VAC :
Active Current Sensors for maximum accuracy*-*VACUUMSCHMELZE GmbH & Co. KG

Wicaksono

Dear Wicaksono,

Thanks for the additional data sheet links on these devices

Mark McKay

P.S. I have received the copper foil to build my second generation Hackenberger Transformer with an integral capacitor as part of the primary.

[Wicaksono]

good luck with the current probe

Hi Wicaksono,

Havn't had much luck measuring the current yet, I will borrow the new current prope from my work .. hopefully it will have a fast enough response.

In the meantime I am building up my driver circuit for the Thyratron that should arrive soon ..
I am hoping to switch in <5ns

Bernie

OK and good luck with it, BTW are your capacitors polypropylene type such as used by tesla coilers ?

Wicaksono

[bmentink]

Dear Bernie,

That is going to be some blazing switching times. I was wondering about the other needed support components you plan to use to make things work. As you know in Gray's 1986 patent he showed no provisions for a heater connection. Some say he was running the Thyratron cold and using it as an arc tube. (If they knew that much about the circuit operation I would have liked to have talk to them at length just to determine how they come to know that) I really doubt that it was running cold, but who knows? Assuming you are considering using the heater I was wondering what you are going to use for the huge high current, low voltage, high isolation value transformer. The few surplus units I have picked up are big and heavy (say 3 lbs. or so). Perhaps you plan to use a dedicated battery with a dropping resistor or a Transistor regulator. There are several options and I was wondering which route you planed to go.

Also, how are you going to drive the "Grid"? The 1986 patent shows a mechanical grounded grid approach, which will probably work but I don't see how you would get the switching time you are looking for using that method. Thus, I assumed you are probably going to use something more active? Perhaps some kind of vacuum tube driver circuit. These days you could probably get by with a HV IGBT driver - but I don't know. Again many options.

Then there is the issue of re-ionization time. I understand that Thyratrons need a certain amount of relaxation time before they can fire again. This limits their frequency response. But then again I suppose you are looking for proof of principle at the moment and not an actual motor/engine drive that operates near 200 pps.

Are you going to have all of the storage capacitor energy go through your CEST and Thyratron? I have wondered how that would work for a long duration and what kind of impact that would have on the backend battery.
We know that the Gray team had problems with exploding batteries and that would be a possible reason as to why.

Anyway, I would certainly enjoy continue reading about your advancements. I don't recall anyone else using a thyratron in driving a CSET - at least not within the last few years.

Mark McKay

Hi Mark,

I am aiming for a 100ns pulse time with 3ns pulse edges .. repeated at the fastest rate I can do .. as you say will be limited by the thyratron relaxation time. However, these tubes can switch > 100khz, I am hoping for just 5khz

Yes, I am going to provide a heater supply, it will be a regulated 6.3v from one of the 12v batteries. Since these are hot cathode thryratrons the cathode is tied to one side of the heater, which is at +12v, the other side of the heater will go via a regulator to -12v.

I have designed a custom grid driver for the thyratron that will give me the required switching times ..

Yes all the capacitor energy will go through the thryatron and battery, I don't see a problem if the average energy is kept down, it is the short peak power we need.

Still waiting on tubes at the moment, they are coming from russia (of course)

By the way, my convertor will not be used to drive a motor initially. I will run the power into an air core transformer back to 240v for testing on vaious loads

Cheers,
Bernie

[bmentink]

OK and good luck with it, BTW are your capacitors polypropylene type such as used by tesla coilers ?

Wicaksono

Yes polypropylene caps ..

[Spokane1]

Solid Plan

Hi Mark,

I am aiming for a 100ns pulse time with 3ns pulse edges .. repeated at the fastest rate I can do .. as you say will be limited by the thyratron relaxation time. However, these tubes can switch > 100khz, I am hoping for just 5khz

Yes, I am going to provide a heater supply, it will be a regulated 6.3v from one of the 12v batteries. Since these are hot cathode thryratrons the cathode is tied to one side of the heater, which is at +12v, the other side of the heater will go via a regulator to -12v.

I have designed a custom grid driver for the thyratron that will give me the required switching times ..

Yes all the capacitor energy will go through the thryatron and battery, I don't see a problem if the average energy is kept down, it is the short peak power we need.

Still waiting on tubes at the moment, they are coming from russia (of course)

By the way, my convertor will not be used to drive a motor initially. I will run the power into an air core transformer back to 240v for testing on vaious loads

Cheers,
Bernie

Dear Bernie,

Sounds like a solid plan to me. Are you going to look for the alleged "Cold Electricity" or search for straight OU? (perhaps both)

Could you give us a hint as to what kind of components your "custom driver" is composed? Solid State or Vacuum Tubes? Perhaps a solid state pulsed trigger coil?

Mark McKay

[bmentink]

Dear Bernie,

Sounds like a solid plan to me. Are you going to look for the alleged "Cold Electricity" or search for straight OU? (perhaps both)

Hi Mark,

Cold electricity is my focus, but I suspect OU will come with it ..

Could you give us a hint as to what kind of components your "custom driver" is composed? Solid State or Vacuum Tubes? Perhaps a solid state pulsed trigger coil?

Mark McKay

It is a solid state design on paper at the moment (and simulated), when I have it working on the tube I will release a detailed schematic ..

What aspect of the Gray design are you chasing down Mark?

Cheers,
Bernie

[Spokane1]

Gray Technology Focus (at the moment)

Hi Mark,

What aspect of the Gray design are you chasing down Mark?

Cheers,
Bernie

Dear Bernie,

Right now my focus is on the converter transformer and its mode of operation. My historical assessment and experimentation has brought me to this device as being the foundation of the non-classical conversion. The rest of the hardware is important, but I'm thinking this is where it starts. There is something very novel about this transformer that makes it special.

I've spent years with other aspects of this technology attempting to get a handle on its physics. Fortunately small clues have been dribbling in over the years. Each time this happens I have to change my cherished theories (yet again) or concept of the history. We now have so much more than what we had in 2000, but still a long way to go.

For example, I have been researching resonant converter topologies for the past few weeks, but I have also been wondering about what the added primary inductor or capacitor is for (six primary taps). Right now I have this third component as a third primary and its performance sucks. So, I'm thinking it has to be a capacitor to reduce the operating frequency of the transformer. Back in 1971 they didn't have fast diodes, so the frequency was probably limited by these components. Therefore they had to have had a slow operation of around 8 kHz. So, if the third leg of the primary probably is a capacitor then what is it doing being wrapped around the primary? A external commercial capacitor would have been a lot cheaper. Therefore this integral capacitor must have been important.

If you look at the Hendershot and Bedini devices you will see included capacitance as the center stage of the apparatus. In the Bedini device (and I assume the Hendershot device) The capacitor is suddenly charged during maximum magnetic field at right angles. If this is to be accomplished in a reproduction Hackenberger transformer then the converter has to be operating as a Fly-Back/Blocking converter like the Bedini motor, but in some kind of push pull configuration, which is rare for this kind of layout.

A Resonant converter (according to one paper) doesn't require a snubber circuit. The "Blue Engine" has a substantial bilateral snubber. Also, its controller board design focuses on fast shutoff speeds with a healthy negative base bias supply. None of this would be needed for a continuous resonant topology. So, now I have to figure out where the output sine wave was coming from and why they wanted to eliminate the negative swing with a battery.

And so it goes and it has been going for years now. Until I can reliably reproduce the proposed effects of "Cold Electricity" my ideas are no better than yours and I could be easily chasing yet another dead end.

So, forge on with your inspirations. It is unimportant who among us cracks this nut as long as it happens in my life time. The potential benefit to mankind is almost limitless.

Mark McKay

[bmentink]

Dear Bernie,

If you look at the Hendershot and Bedini devices you will see included capacitance as the center stage of the apparatus. In the Bedini device (and I assume the Hendershot device) The capacitor is suddenly charged during maximum magnetic field at right angles. If this is to be accomplished in a reproduction Hackenberger transformer then the converter has to be operating as a Fly-Back/Blocking converter like the Bedini motor, but in some kind of push pull configuration, which is rare for this kind of layout.

Mark McKay

Hi Mark,

I think the Gray tube grids can be concidered both a capacitor AND an inductor. As an inductor secondary ( The primary is the central rod) it picks up the magnetic field from the rod. It also is a capacitor and picks up the radient energy from the central rod, so I would suggest that the grid is a parallel resonant circuit that should be brought into resonance by the impulse frequency of the spark OR as a delay line so that the spark pulse on time matches or is slightly less than the inductive delay of the grids.

What is not clear, is what the connection is to the grids. The patent clearly shows two wires to the grids though everyone connects the grids together. I think grids one and three should be brought out and treated as a capacitor, not as a single connection, or the grids are internally connected as a 3 turn inductor and again two wires brought out .. what do you think?

Bernie

[Spokane1]

Another Look at the CEST Device

Hi Mark,

I think the Gray tube grids can be concidered both a capacitor AND an inductor. As an inductor secondary ( The primary is the central rod) it picks up the magnetic field from the rod. It also is a capacitor and picks up the radient energy from the central rod, so I would suggest that the grid is a parallel resonant circuit that should be brought into resonance by the impulse frequency of the spark OR as a delay line so that the spark pulse on time matches or is slightly less than the inductive delay of the grids.

Bernie

Dear Bernie,

I have never looked at the CSET in that light, but you are right. If they could maintain the proper frequency then the fundamental interaction between the fields would be the same as what I propose happened in the Hendershot and Bedini systems. But the window of operation, I suspect, would be very narrow and some huge currents would be needed through the "anode". The anode might also have been iron to facilitate this kind of process. This is what Gary Magratten used in 2006 when he made some weird observations with his simple CEST. He used a 3/8" zinc coated steel construction rod from the hardware store.

As I understand it the CEST devices were already fabricated when Mr. Hackenberger come on line in 1971. He probably didn't have a clue as to how these devices were intended to operate. If so then he might have made some minor adjustments in their connections and/or construction that made them useless.

IF my time line is somewhat correct then the original five motors were equipped with thyratron devices and driven with vacuum tube circuits. They very well could have developed the proper high frequency necessary to get these things in an OU mode. Gray could have kept these motors from Hack to prevent him from knowing about them and the fact that he had stolen them from the original investors.

I wonder why none of this HF driving circuitry was displayed when John Bedini came to visit in 1973?

Anyway this is a good concept to explore and one that I don't think anyone has looked into. At least you have a theory that will provide for engineering judgment and instrumentation layout.

Mark McKay

[Spokane1]

The CEST grid connections

What is not clear, is what the connection is to the grids. The patent clearly shows two wires to the grids though everyone connects the grids together. I think grids one and three should be brought out and treated as a capacitor, not as a single connection, or the grids are internally connected as a 3 turn inductor and again two wires brought out .. what do you think?

Bernie

Dear Bernie,

I have also wondered about that issue myself. You are right the elevation drawing of the CEST in the patent does show two individual conductors going to the outside, however the schematic only shows a single connection to a single "grid". If this were an electrostatic process then the inner grid would be involved with all the field interaction while additional grids would just sit there. Even the concept of having holes in the copper didn't make much sense unless there was some kind of thermionic (or other kind) of emission going on. The CEST devises shown on the EMA6 engine didn't have holes in them.

The Bedini Field notes show the grids connected together, so it is natural for researchers to assume that they were connected together since everyone was lacking a theory of operation and I'm sure the patent didn't disclose all there was to know about these devices. I'm also sure that Gray didn't have a clue as to how these devices worked when he finally applied for the patent in 1986.

Having the grids separated to serve other functions would make more engineering sense to me. My WAG for the morning would be that the inner grid provides the sudden electrostatic field. The second grid is the actual "harvest grid" of any anomalous energy that is projected from the reaction space between the first grid and the anode rod. IF this is so, then the aspect ratio of the device shown in the patent makes more sense than the one used for the EMA6 engine in 1976.

This is certainly a good topic of discussion.

Mark McKay