Gray Tube Replication

[Spokane1]

Dear Mark (spokane1)

First we should remember one simple experiment : those with incandescent bulb put into water . It indicates very clearly that we are touching high frequency phenomena (or that experiment was a hoax if Cole was dead in that time and his device was not used. Please Mark provide us an information regarding that fact)

Dear Boguslaw,

Gray was really fond of those under water incandescent lamp demonstrations.

When we discuss the frequency of operation we must be careful where we are getting our numbers. The 6KHz number comes from Richard Hackenburgers re-engineered solid state design. This box was rated at 50 watts.

Now I have an interview from one observer from 1973 who claims that he saw one of Gray's Black Boxes operate 1400 watts of connected load running from a 12 AHr battery. I suspect this was an original Marvin Cole "Electrostatic Generator". We have no idea what its output frequency was.

I have questioned the technical significance of these demos as far as not being shocked when people put their hands in the water. If the power source is an isolated battery operating an isolation transformer, then there is no potential differance between the lamp and the ground.

I suspect that the real attraction is that these lamps are alleged to run cool. Now Hackenburger's box used 15 watt lamps, which can be placed in water with no problems. Cole's Black box ran a number of 100 watt lamps. Now those get much hotter and will shatter if dipped in water when hot. However if they are started up in water then there is no problems with breaking.

The lamp socked used was an outdoor construction base that provides a pretty good water seal against the glass. So shorting out the contacts was greatly reduced. If some petrolum jelly were added to the lip of the socket then a water short would be even less of a problem.

I'm sure that this demo had its roots in a very technical presentation, but may have been modified by Gray to impress non-technical observers as time went on.

I haven't explored it, but I think you could do most of this demonstration with DC. I don't see how isolated AC would make much differance.

I'm sure the original demonstration was quite impressive even for technical people. I believe this because this is how Marvin Cole was able to collect the $$$ to build his high output motors before he had a motor to demonstrate.

Mark McKay

[Electrotek]

Tesla's Motor

Boguslaw: Could you give us the patent number for Tesla's high frequency motor? Thanks.

[boguslaw]

Dear Boguslaw,

Gray was really fond of those under water incandescent lamp demonstrations.

When we discuss the frequency of operation we must be careful where we are getting our numbers. The 6KHz number comes from Richard Hackenburgers re-engineered solid state design. This box was rated at 50 watts.

Now I have an interview from one observer from 1973 who claims that he saw one of Gray's Black Boxes operate 1400 watts of connected load running from a 12 AHr battery. I suspect this was an original Marvin Cole "Electrostatic Generator". We have no idea what its output frequency was.

I have questioned the technical significance of these demos as far as not being shocked when people put their hands in the water. If the power source is an isolated battery operating an isolation transformer, then there is no potential differance between the lamp and the ground.

I suspect that the real attraction is that these lamps are alleged to run cool. Now Hackenburger's box used 15 watt lamps, which can be placed in water with no problems. Cole's Black box ran a number of 100 watt lamps. Now those get much hotter and will shatter if dipped in water when hot. However if they are started up in water then there is no problems with breaking.

The lamp socked used was an outdoor construction base that provides a pretty good water seal against the glass. So shorting out the contacts was greatly reduced. If some petrolum jelly were added to the lip of the socket then a water short would be even less of a problem.

I'm sure that this demo had its roots in a very technical presentation, but may have been modified by Gray to impress non-technical observers as time went on.

I haven't explored it, but I think you could do most of this demonstration with DC. I don't see how isolated AC would make much differance.

I'm sure the original demonstration was quite impressive even for technical people. I believe this because this is how Marvin Cole was able to collect the $$$ to build his high output motors before he had a motor to demonstrate.

Mark McKay

This photo is probably a hoax, but I can't state for sure. First Gray is not putting his hand into water and I see (however it's questionable , it may be also a shadow) two wires coming out of a box to the bulb.
The original presentation will be with single wire for sure and with both filament end shorted together and maybe with a small insulated plate connected on top of the bulb , but it may not be necessary.

[boguslaw]

Boguslaw: Could you give us the patent number for Tesla's high frequency motor? Thanks.

No one exists. Fortunately you can read pieces of informations in Tesla lectures. All other was either not patented or scratched from patent office later.
It is my personal opinion that Tesla first attempts were not big success and he postponed experiments in this area.Later around 1930 he has looked at small scale applications for his devices and build a working models of those motors.
I cited that lecture:

ON LIGHT AND OTHER HIGH FREQUENCY PHENOMENA
by Nikola Tesla
(Delivered before the Franklin Institute, Philadelphia,
February 1893, and
before the National Electric Light Association, St. Louis,
March 1893 )

Really all important info is lost, the same seems true for his experiments with rotating magnetic fields and iron cores.Only a little pieces of information remain...

[boguslaw]

Dear Mark and all fellow researchers,

As You see in fig 16 I each of powering coils is attached to a strange transformer with unconnected one wire of primary. Of course there is probability that EMA4 cores were connected in series but if not then each of power coils should have attached such transformer.
From the photo you sent us I see in stator a bunch of two coils configuration which perfectly match the power coil of fig 16 I.


Regards
Boguslaw

[Aaron]

demo

Is there someone willing to draw correct Gray patent circuit according to my ideas ?

Hi Bogus, would you mind drawing the schematic and posting a video demonstration?

[Beshires1]

Just a thought, but it could be that its wrapped around the casing over the pulsating magnetic fields of the rotor and stator. I don't know if it is possible but it could be forming a torrid of sorts, with the magnetic fields being in sets of three or threes would mean strong magnetic pulses crossing the cable bundle at 120 degree intervals. Sorta like Boyce's mysterious wound torrid. I don't know this is probably a dumb thought. I just remember Boyce saying something about his mysterious torrid and being struck by lightening or something like that.

[ourbobby]

Gentlemen,

Perhaps some history about component #38 would be helpful in this discussion.

When Richard Hackenburger came on board in mid 1972 the finished EMA4-E2 motor was running well enough to encourage a group of investors (along with their engineers) to sign a "letter of intent" in Jan. of 1973. The deal was almost done until the motor started acting up a few monts later during advanced tests. Since nobody really knew how it worked nobody (included Gray) could retune or adjust it properly like Marvin Cole could. [Timing in this system is very important - or so I think]

Mr. Hackenburger had an observation port machined into the front of the motor to observe the stretched arcs, but this didn't help him much. Things got worse and then the batteries started exploding from internal arcs igniting the excess hydrogen. After "Hack" cleaned about the third set of battery fragments from the walls of the shop he did two remedial modifications. He had built the large and thick Plexiglas battery enclousure installed (which was carried on the the EMA6 design) and he installed the current limiting capacitor #38. Gray and Hackenburger had long arguments about the modification to the circuit. Apparently the series capacitor stayed and was still in the circuit when Dr. Chalfin wrote up the patent application documents in late 1973.

So component #38 was not part of the original circuit but a "work around" to limit battery destruction by limiting the DC pulse current returning back to the receiving battery. Its inclusion may have contributed to the poor performance of the EMA6.

Submitted for you consideration.

Mark McKay

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the email. Getting back to the point. I think you are absolutely correct here. There seems to be a deliberate obfuscation of these components. This is an interesting thread trying to describe a working hypothesis based on, not only an incomplete discreet circuit, but, also without the wherewithall to connect it to the motor!

In one of your other posts, your excellent observation is at the root of understanding the connection between Tesla's High Frequency work and the "Gray Tube/ Motor", the development of 87.5 hp with minimal input. This is at the heart of the issue. It is quite clear to me that, IMHO, the Gray Tube has been either wrongly described or there is a serious omission in the description of the circuit.

Also, just to follow up on the minutia, of the Gray Patent circuit, I would like to know how the triode ( the one side of the "split positive") is really connected and driven, rather than some straight through connection to the battery pack with a dangling grid.Maybe just another red herring?

Regards
Rob

[Beshires1]

This photo is probably a hoax, but I can't state for sure. First Gray is not putting his hand into water and I see (however it's questionable , it may be also a shadow) two wires coming out of a box to the bulb.
The original presentation will be with single wire for sure and with both filament end shorted together and maybe with a small insulated plate connected on top of the bulb , but it may not be necessary.

Naw, Its Not a hoax,Cold Electricity Ha Ha Ha it can be easily done, as I will show you in this video.

I made this video a while back to demonstrate to another member of this forum that it can be done without "Cold Electricity" of course the water was cold that I used......

[Beshires1]

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the email. Getting back to the point. I think you are absolutely correct here. There seems to be a deliberate obfuscation of these components. This is an interesting thread trying to describe a working hypothesis based on, not only an incomplete discreet circuit, but, also without the wherewithall to connect it to the motor!

In one of your other posts, your excellent observation is at the root of understanding the connection between Tesla's High Frequency work and the "Gray Tube/ Motor", the development of 87.5 hp with minimal input. This is at the heart of the issue. It is quite clear to me that, IMHO, the Gray Tube has been either wrongly described or there is a serious omission in the description of the circuit.

Also, just to follow up on the minutia, of the Gray Patent circuit, I would like to know how the triode ( the one side of the "split positive") is really connected and driven, rather than some straight through connection to the battery pack with a dangling grid.Maybe just another red herring?

Regards
Rob

The connection to the motor is becoming more clear to me. Oddly enough one of Grey's cited references patents holds I believe to be the answer to where the tube connects to the motor. Patent no.3619638. This patent explains Greys 3 contact trigger terminals at the firing position. I also question the diode where the triode should be. Simply because who ever drawed the schematic drew diodes where diodes were supposed to be. why a triode symbol and not another diode?

[mlurye]

Ok everebody, you are absolutly correct about 38 it doesn't belong here. And here is schema the way it suppose to be.

[mlurye]

By the way inside of the inductive load box there is some parts that are very important to have schema complete. I’m talking about another capacitor with inductive load.

[Beshires1]

Ok everebody, you are absolutly correct about 38 it doesn't belong here. And here is schema the way it suppose to be.

dang if it dont look like the battery's going strait to the load!

[mlurye]

dang if it dont look like the battery's going strait to the load!

Beshires1 good comment, but that is were you have to figure out how to connect another cap and coils and I know that you know how to do that. If you can not figure it out just ask

[mlurye]

For those who can not figgure it out: