Gray Tube Replication

[Spokane1]

Getting the Ol' circuit Running

Mark,
Here is test I want you to try. Make sure that NOTHING is connected to the HV output of Ignition coil. (Just to be clear: Wire around the coil should be connected to the base of PNP, other end not connected to anything) And try to start oscillator, if everything is OK you should hear buzzing sound. If oscillations do not start you could quickly tap base of 2n3055 with 12V.
Also I don’t know what so special about 2n2907 but try to replace them with TIP41 or equivalent transistor.

Dear Mike,

Good idea on seperating the secondary load and a 12V kick starat for a shakedown test. The base wire to the PNP transistor is connected as you said. In the photo it is the white coil of wire around the upper part of the ignition coil. The 2N3055 and PNP transistor are mounted on the heat sink at the left of the photo. The attached potetiometer is 25 Ohm. Other components are the HV bridge, 1st stage storage capacitor, and spark gap with micrometer. The big green donut on the right is the Pearson Wide Band Pulse Transformer Model 150 for current measurements through the primary of the ignition coil.

The "Big Deal" with the 2N2907 is that I have a lot of them already - I got lucky at flea market. I shall see if I have a TIP41 (good chance) on hand.

Thanks for reviewing this setup.

Mark McKay

[mlurye]

Mark,
Why ground wire is going to the transistors area? Ground should be connected to the ignition coil and nothing else.
Move the wire around ignition coil to the bottom, transformer in ignition coil at the bottom.

[Aaron]

details

What are your proposed diode ratings for the three diodes you have showing?

Also about how large should I make that inductor?

You show a mechanical contact driving the primary of the ignition coil. How fast should that be buzzing? any idea as to a good working duty factor for the "ON" state. I can use a self stepping Imhotep relay, but that limits the coil current to about 2.6A and runs at 125 Hz. But I think mechanical contacts might be where its at in the long run. Once we know how to tune them.

Also, I'm not sure where the power is suppose to be applied. Across the primary tank capacitor? I assume 12V is fine to start with.

Between your circuit and Mike's circuit I should be busy for a few weeks.

I notice your interest in water arcs. Have you seen the article in Electric Space Craft Journal about 4 years ago? A fine piece of garage research. Be glad to send you a .jpg copy.

Mark McKay

Hi Mark,

The diodes I have on this circuit at 15kv/350ma microwave diodes and they have worked just fine for this. Even with a Mallory Promaster quite a bit more beefier than a regular ignition coil, they have held up fine.

You actually don't even need the diode between ignition coil output and gap.

The coil I'm using is a 2000 turn trifilar and I'm just using 1 wire out of the three. 2 windings are 23 gauge and 1 winding is 26 gauge. I'm just using what I already have wound.

I'm using a dpdt relay that in one position, the cap gets charged and in the other position, the cap discharges to the primary so the switch is actually both the + and - of the primary. So the cap is 100% isolated from the power source. The relay is triggered by a 555 chip and an adjustable pot. So, the frequency can be as slow as you want. Just as long as the cap dumping to the primary is charged up and the cap on the back side is charged, you can dump the cap to primary to make the effect.

You can charge either cap any way you want...the frequency of how often you want the effect depends on how fast you can charge the caps. You can do it with variacs, oscillators, etc... just as long as they're charged enough. The booster cap behind the load can be a photoflash cap charged to a couple hundred volts.

I would love to see the escj's article on the water arc! thanks.

[Aaron]

cap/diode effect

@Aaron,
Forgive me if I'm being dense, and I've been trying to follow this thread closely, but I think I might be missing something.

On your circuit above, doesn't the cap on the left just constantly discharge through the coil? Didn't you mean to have the anode of the first diode connected to the other side of the switch (similar to water spark plug)?

If not, how does the cap maintain enough charge to trigger the coil primary?

WTF

WTF,

The cap maintains charge because it gets charged while it is disconnected from the primary. When it is charged, then it can get connected to primary, disconnect, repeat.

As soon as it is connected, primary is charged, field collapses, HV spike goes out of coil and backwards through the diode to the + of the cap connected to the primary seeking ground through there since that is the lowest resistance path to ground...the gap is the high resistance path to ground. The very moment that the HV goes backwards through the diode, diode shuts off...the HV compresses against it and moves to gap leaving a suction on the diode's cathode that sucks out the pressure in the cap at instantaneous speed...that mixes with the HV going over the gap and this time compression factor is where you get the impulse instead of a spark...

The identical thing happens with the HV moving backwards through the diode from the other capacitor..shuts off, compresses, jumps gap leaving a serious negative pressure on the cathode, which instantaneously sucks the potential out of that cap as well to mix with the HV.

It is just a way to manipulate the gas pressures of the voltage potential to change the impedance of the circuit.

I bet if the potential from the cap was measured leaving the cap, moving over the wire (heavside flow) and moving to gap would find that it is travelling with negative resistance caused by that vacuum caused by the HV super compression then draining.

[What The Flux]

WTF,

The cap maintains charge because it gets charged while it is disconnected from the primary. When it is charged, then it can get connected to primary, disconnect, repeat.

As soon as it is connected, primary is charged, field collapses, HV spike goes out of coil and backwards through the diode to the + of the cap connected to the primary seeking ground through there since that is the lowest resistance path to ground...the gap is the high resistance path to ground. The very moment that the HV goes backwards through the diode, diode shuts off...the HV compresses against it and moves to gap leaving a suction on the diode's cathode that sucks out the pressure in the cap at instantaneous speed...that mixes with the HV going over the gap and this time compression factor is where you get the impulse instead of a spark...

The identical thing happens with the HV moving backwards through the diode from the other capacitor..shuts off, compresses, jumps gap leaving a serious negative pressure on the cathode, which instantaneously sucks the potential out of that cap as well to mix with the HV.

It is just a way to manipulate the gas pressures of the voltage potential to change the impedance of the circuit.

I bet if the potential from the cap was measured leaving the cap, moving over the wire (heavside flow) and moving to gap would find that it is travelling with negative resistance caused by that vacuum caused by the HV super compression then draining.

OK, so what I think I was missing is that the primary cap is totally removed from the circuit shown, by a DPDT relay setup during the time it is charging. Is that correct?

Does the same apply to the cap on the load? Is that charged with a separate, higher voltage supply?
(Believe me, I tried looking back through this thread for the answers, but couldn't find them.)

Thanks again.

[Spokane1]

Further Review

Mark,
Why ground wire is going to the transistors area? Ground should be connected to the ignition coil and nothing else.
Move the wire around ignition coil to the bottom, transformer in ignition coil at the bottom.

Dear Mike,

Don't you just love attempting to figure out wiring connections from a photo. It has given me headachs for years, especially with Gray's stuff.

The ground from the battery loops through the Current Transformer and connects to the (-) on the ignition coil and nothing else - just as you say. The other black wire that connects to the ignition coil on the DIST. (+) terminal goes to the emitter of the 2N3055. (Ive got more black wire than red wire). The red wire is the (+) from the battery which connects to the collector of the 2N3055 and also connects to the AC input of the HV bridge. The white wire only connecte at one end to the base of the PNP transistor. It is open at the other end. The photo makes it look like its connected to one terminal of the coil - which it isn't.

I shall move the pickup coil to the bottom as you suggest. Sounds good to me.

Again thanks for the additional review.

Mark McKay

[Spokane1]

Green Arc Demo Device - Circuits Details

Hi Mark,

The diodes I have on this circuit at 15kv/350ma microwave diodes and they have worked just fine for this. Even with a Mallory Promaster quite a bit more beefier than a regular ignition coil, they have held up fine.

You actually don't even need the diode between ignition coil output and gap.

The coil I'm using is a 2000 turn trifilar and I'm just using 1 wire out of the three. 2 windings are 23 gauge and 1 winding is 26 gauge. I'm just using what I already have wound.

I'm using a dpdt relay that in one position, the cap gets charged and in the other position, the cap discharges to the primary so the switch is actually both the + and - of the primary. So the cap is 100% isolated from the power source. The relay is triggered by a 555 chip and an adjustable pot. So, the frequency can be as slow as you want. Just as long as the cap dumping to the primary is charged up and the cap on the back side is charged, you can dump the cap to primary to make the effect.

You can charge either cap any way you want...the frequency of how often you want the effect depends on how fast you can charge the caps. You can do it with variacs, oscillators, etc... just as long as they're charged enough. The booster cap behind the load can be a photoflash cap charged to a couple hundred volts.

I would love to see the escj's article on the water arc! thanks.

Dear Arron,

These are exactly the details I was looking for. Now I have enough information to make a stab at this circuit as well.

The scanned ESCJ article is pretty large about 6MB or so. Send me an email address to my work location at mmckay@tycoint.com and I can return the entire file to you along with any other information you might like.

Mark McKay

[Aaron]

details

Yes, the front side cap is disconnected while charging.

In early plasma spark plug tests, I charged both caps with the same power supply and it worked but I recall it got buggy a few times..I think that was when I was using a light bulb as a resistor instead of fixed resistors.

For the backside cap, the effect works with 1000v/2uf and works with 100-400v/165uf and with 100-400v/330uf from the caps that I tried.

You can certainly use the same battery to charge both caps of course if you use one charging circuit or two separate ones.

The Aromaz type oscillator circuit with the 2 transistors is probably the easiest.

I know how to run the circuit and charge all caps with one single ignition coil...possibly...will test when my magnets come in. I'll do everything at once.

[mlurye]

Mark,
If you put everything correctly, then I can suggest only one thing replace PNP transistor with other one.

Here is another video I made of Grays static generator
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sot3C7VihR0

[What The Flux]

Another puzzlement

I think Aaron's theory of operation makes a lot of sense... intuitively I can buy it, and I will pursue it.

But that then leads me to ask why Gray used multiple concentric grids around his HV+ node.

I have, up to now, been assuming that the grids acted as antennae to catch radiant energy being emitted from the + electrode. This is what Peter Lindemann leads us to believe. (I need to go watch those videos again.)

If Aaron's description is the only mechanism happening, we could just use three solid electrodes arranged appropriately. I have to believe that Gray's team wouldn't have gone to the expense of designing the CSETs as they were, if the grids didn't have some function other than just being a node.

Is there a secondary phenomenon happening here?

[mlurye]

Sorry What The Flux,
I don't believe that you will find any magic in Gray's motor.

[What The Flux]

Sorry What The Flux,
I don't believe that you will find any magic in Gray's motor.

I didn't come here for magic.

Why are there perforated grids around the + rod?

[nat1971a]

Bring on the magic!!

Thanks for the video mike

[boguslaw]

I think Aaron's theory of operation makes a lot of sense... intuitively I can buy it, and I will pursue it.

But that then leads me to ask why Gray used multiple concentric grids around his HV+ node.

I have, up to now, been assuming that the grids acted as antennae to catch radiant energy being emitted from the + electrode. This is what Peter Lindemann leads us to believe. (I need to go watch those videos again.)

If Aaron's description is the only mechanism happening, we could just use three solid electrodes arranged appropriately. I have to believe that Gray's team wouldn't have gone to the expense of designing the CSETs as they were, if the grids didn't have some function other than just being a node.

Is there a secondary phenomenon happening here?

In my opinion : YES. I believe originally CSET was Tesla pancake coils with a outside copper spiral as primary, merged with spark gap above grids. Just a nice single box for Tesla magnifying transmitter. The mechanism of powering spark gap is secondary to that.I said that previously but nobody seems interested.... I'm crushed by the fact that really nobody is trying to ask why on Gray CSET photos concentric grids seems allocated only on one side of the box, not just filling all space like in Aaron experiments for example.

In FACT those photos are STRICTLY following Gray patent : grids at the bottom of the CSET , and spark gap with carbon resitor above grids ! Please look at my older posts also. I may have used not perfect English but I thought that idea is simple.

[Aaron]

comments

I have mentioned in my descriptions why grids by the HV rod only could make sense.

There is no way to know if there is going to be magic or not until if and when we find it...but I'm optimistic

First of all, we don't know what Gray's static generator was. We know it had ignition coils involved and it operated at 6000hz and that the output could be rectified in some way and could power normal incandescent light bulbs, radios, tv's, etc... Will a 60 cycle appliance run perfect well at 120hz? maybe the 6000hz was to be a harmonic of 60hz? Does anyone know if higher harmonics will run them?

That is the static generator but the positive potential in the HV caps can also be considered static as in electrostatic potential because if it just sits there at the terminals, that is exactly what it is..electrostatic potential.

There are only 2 possible sources of direct current that I can easily see. The battery behind the inductor if it is even there and if it is there without the capacitor...the other source of DC is the battery on the LV rod.

It may be possible that when the diode shuts off on the LV rod, the pos potential from the front cap moves to the grids towards ground through the inductor to the cap or battery...the movement of the HV potential from that cathode of the diode (lv rod) to the grids causes a serious negative pressure that will suck the battery potential out and will cause it to follow it to the grid...possibly...and there could be current with it. I know for sure this does this with some caps charged to a few hundred volts but I find it challenging to get 12v battery to follow. But, the battery at the LV rod could simply be there to get charged up and I have proven already that it charges like mad with this effect.

The other possibility of DC is if there is a batt behind the coil...that positive potential of that battery is sitting right there at the grids...the potential is instantaneously at every point on every piece of the grid surrounding the hv rod and/or both rods if that is how much area the grids cover. The frontside hv cap could move to grids and collide with the battery and that could be the static and dc mixing.

If there is a cap behind the coil, then the only mixing that is immediate to power a coil possibly is from the LV rod.

I found that when the backside cap behind the coil is charged from just a regular hv spark from the coil with LV rod disconnected, it will pop the coil when the LV rod is connected to give it a low potential path to ground.

Here is what I said before about it making sense if the grids were only by the HV rods.

Lets say the cap behind coil is charged up to 1000+ volts. Lets say the front side cap is also charged up. If the lv rod is connected to the circuit, what happens? Both caps discharge...but how do you ensure that ALL of the backside cap will collide with the HV rod potential instead of being able to possibly jump straight to the LV rod? Don't put the grids by the LV rod or the backside cap could discharge straight to that avoiding the HV rod. Even though my rods were over both, evidentely some of the backside cap still collided with the HV rod potential.

But, if the grids were only over the HV rods...when the lv is connected, the backside cap MUST fully collide with the HV rod potential before it can move to the LV rod towards ground.

Again, I can't prove this green plasma effect is what Gray did but based on their own admittance that the key was mixing static and dc...and the key is also a series of caps... I have tried countless variations and 100% of the time that the coil actually pops...is when the green spark manifests.

If that isn't what Gray had, then I discovered how to change the inductance of an inductor allowing a super fast discharge into it even with super thin wire and a lot of windings to give a super fast magnetic pop. I don't know anyone else that has ever done this and if Gray or Marvin Cole did, then I found what they did.

The coil is being charged with negative resistance...instead of having to work against any sort of impedance...the cap behind it already as the pos potential in the coil and it is sucked out faster than an "ambient" pulse from a regular capacitance discharge.

With the whole "shock wave" concept of swelling out and having the universe push it back in with more negative energy...that is possibly what is happening in these coils. The frequencies and power usages we're dealing with now is just really small scale and is not enough to even determine what the upscaled effect is.

When we can get this green effect on these coils 6000 times a second, that is probably fast enough to maintain a "net" negative energy gain at the coil in a big enough way, which is literally time reversed, negentropic and cold. Running it for a while like that could put frost on the coil and that is totally consistent with known principles.

If that happens, with or without it being Gray's or Cole's method, it is an astounding concept that can be used to pump out enough cold current to power way more than what takes to run it. I would say that is pretty magical even if we do think we understand it.

I scoped my caps and coil during some tests with all of this but even zoomed out all the way in every way, everything was just off the charts so I couldn't see what was happening.

All I need to know is one thing to lock in a strong argument... take the same amount of capacitance and dump it straight to the coil and watch the scope. Take the same amount of capacitance and do it with this collision effect...is the coil able to charge faster to a higher potential and is the discharge also faster with a larger negative spike? I have a Goldstar os-9020a so if someone else can post some scope shots from one of your fancy digital scopes, that would be great!

p.s. I thought I was using my 2000 turn trifilar but I'm actually using the 1000 turn trifilar.