Gray Tube Replication

[martin]

Is there any way to calculate the pulse width of the make/break of the contacts in the motor? That may give an idea of what to shoot for. The pulse width would indeed have to be extremely quick not to feel.

[What The Flux]

Pulse width

Is there any way to calculate the pulse width of the make/break of the contacts in the motor? That may give an idea of what to shoot for. The pulse width would indeed have to be extremely quick not to feel.

I tried to ball-park this in post 872. There's no way the pulse can be very short, at least due to the contacts. And I wasn't even assuming any "dragging" of the spark.

If the discharge is indeed quenched by the diode slamming shut, which I think is a good explanation, I don't know how to calculate that. It needs to be measured by someone with an HV scope.

[Aaron]

high frequency

Aaron already said, that frequency has nothing to do with the pain effect, all that counts is the pulse length. If the pulse is short enough, it wont cause any pain effect even at 1Hz.

Right and that does come straight from Tesla.

Even if you have one single event....and it is 1 microsecond and you never have another event...Tesla still considered that "high frequency"...meaning the pulse itself was very fast even though technically frequency is repetition of something over a certain time interval....he used "high frequency" in different contexts to equal short pulse width.

Just an FYI ...
This book isn't Tesla but it is a great reference:
Internet Archive: Details: Electricity at High Pressures and Frequencies
You can see the pdf link in the left column.

I originally found this book in Lindsay Publications years ago..soon after walked into a used bookstore here just randomly and it was sitting on the shelf. Anyway, this doesn't cost anything.
Electricity at High Pressures and Frequencies (1913) Author: Henry L. Transtrom

[lighty]

Aaron already said, that frequency has nothing to do with the pain effect, all that counts is the pulse length. If the pulse is short enough, it wont cause any pain effect even at 1Hz.

Well, that's only partially correct. If the repetition rate of short impulses is high enough then the saturation of nerve endings will lead to pain. For example 1us impulses with repetition frequency of say 500 Hz is painless, but 1us impulses with repetition frequency of 1kHz might be painful. It also depends on the wave shape and on the voltage and current induced in the nerves.

[Aaron]

cap discharging and mechanical contact

The length of time that the mechanical contacts are touching are INDEPENDENT of how fast the cap discharges with the right setup.

You can do one single event, touch the contacts indefinitely and the cap will have already discharged the first 33% of its voltage in 1 microsecond or less, the second 33% discharged between 2~10 microseconds and the last 33% discharged over a few hundred microseconds. Based on the exact cap Greg showed the scope shot on. Each cap will be different.

But the point is, no matter how long the contacts are connected for, the cap is discharged way before the contact can break.

So if this is so and the cap totally discharges...and on the Gray system it is speculation the cap would totally discharge because the power supply would be sending potential to the cap the entire time this is happening so perhaps with this and any possible recovery, the caps won't need much charging to keep them topped off.

I got the effect with 4000v/2uf caps just charging them to about 1000volts...the most the cap would drop during the event of super quick forced discharge because of the diode and/or gap effect, the cap only dropped to 500v...usually not that much..often just to 750v... that is all the evidence I need to know the following:

1. What is discharged from the cap will discharge virtually instantaneously with the diode/gap method - analogous to the plasma ignition method.

2. The cap absolutely will NOT discharge to 0 at these voltages with this method and only need to be topped up...NOT charged from 0.

3. No matter how slow the mechanical contact is...a relay...my hand touching a wire to the low voltage rod to connect the lv source...what is discharged from the cap discharges virtually instantaneous...no matter how slow the mechanical contact speed.

YouTube - Here's how the Gray Tube works
5:20~6:45 You can see the cap definitely doesn't discharge to zero and only about 200v are discharging...I say it is charged to 250v but I actually had the meter set for 1000v so when the needle is at the far right, it is at 1000v...the average drop was about 200v per pop.

[Aaron]

slow frequency short pulse width

Well, that's only partially correct. If the repetition rate of short impulses is high enough then the saturation of nerve endings will lead to pain. For example 1us impulses with repetition frequency of say 500 Hz is painless, but 1us impulses with repetition frequency of 1kHz might be painful. It also depends on the wave shape and on the voltage and current induced in the nerves.

Maybe, but the distinction between the pulse width and real frequency are definitely different.

I know with different machines I've been on like the Abrahm's machine, etc... it was short pulse width as I was coupled to it and the frequency was slow...very slow...and no pain or shocking at all.

[lighty]

it was short pulse width as I was coupled to it and the frequency was slow...very slow...and no pain or shocking at all.

That's correct but if you were to raise frequency significantly you would eventually feel the pain. I experimented a lot with that stuff using myself as a test subject. Let me tell you that the same impulse length can be extremely painful or it can be completely sensation free depending on the saturation of the nerve endings. At certain points I was able to pass impulses of a few kilovolts and a few tens of miliamperes without feeling anything if the impulse was short enough (we're talking about nanoseconds here) and if the frequency was also adequately low. Normally those impulses can easily cause muscular spasms and kill you. Oh, and at certain impulse lengths and frequencies there is a distinct cooling efect present but I guess it's a completely subjective feeling related to the way how nerves react. Enough OT though.

[martin]

I did my first test with my pendulum MOT coils. The first attachment shows the swing with the Switch Tube outside the inductor. The second picture shows the slightly greater force when the Tube is inside the inductor. In the third picture, the black line in the end of the Tube is a chunk of mouse pad used to support the electrode.

Here's a video:

Jerry's Site - Coil Test.WMV

I'm using the hot stick wire on the left as the commutator, to the diode.

Wow, that's some kick.

Electrotek, do you happen to have a hi-res copy of this pic that you could send me?

[Electrotek]

Martin: I'm very unhappy with the rendition of my video at Multiply (Microsoft). It doesn't even show the flash in the Tube.

About the picture you spotted. I've been looking at that since you pointed it out. This is an important lead. And I do have a high resolution image of that shot on a disc Mark sent me. Unfortunately, I can't open it yet. I just recently got a DVD drive running, and I still don't have all the Codecs, or the time to find and download more. I think Mark's on jury duty right now, or he might upload it.

I'm going to see if anyone else around here can open the disc. I want to look at that as much as you do. Thanks for spotting it.

[mlurye]

There is also some kind of schema on the blackboard, interesting one on the left.
Electrotek can you create ISO image out of DVD then split it and put it on some kind of file shearing site?
I found very good program to magnify photos - PhotoZoom Pro. BenVista

[Electrotek]

I probably could, if I could open the DVD disc.

[martin]

Martin: I'm very unhappy with the rendition of my video at Multiply (Microsoft). It doesn't even show the flash in the Tube.

About the picture you spotted. I've been looking at that since you pointed it out. This is an important lead. And I do have a high resolution image of that shot on a disc Mark sent me. Unfortunately, I can't open it yet. I just recently got a DVD drive running, and I still don't have all the Codecs, or the time to find and download more. I think Mark's on jury duty right now, or he might upload it.

I'm going to see if anyone else around here can open the disc. I want to look at that as much as you do. Thanks for spotting it.

Awesome. PLEASE let me (us) know when you can upload it because it's killin me. In paintshoppro it looks like possibly horizontal caps, but impossible to tell.

Mlurye, I saw that also, looks like a transistor, a battery, can't tell what else though.

[Electrotek]

I can open the picture with Windows Picture and Fax Viewer and there's a manify button I can click a few times to enlarge the image. I looks identical to the third picture you attached, even with the roll of paper towels. The caps are vertical and are unconnected.

[mlurye]

To me it looks like 6 x 1.5V batteries = 9V total and there is fluorescent bulb in front. So I guess it is HV converter and bulb there is to test it.
Schema on blackboard has transistor and relay that suppose to generate impulses, impulses drawn below schema.

Electrotek: If you have relay and coil in relay is being powered from a source of energy through contacts that are normally connected. If relay is powered contacts are getting disconnected and in general you are getting vibrator. What frequency you can get with device like that? In our case we are talking about 12V relay.

[john_g]

Right and that does come straight from Tesla.

Even if you have one single event....and it is 1 microsecond and you never have another event...Tesla still considered that "high frequency"...meaning the pulse itself was very fast even though technically frequency is repetition of something over a certain time interval....he used "high frequency" in different contexts to equal short pulse width.

Just an FYI ...
This book isn't Tesla but it is a great reference:
Internet Archive: Details: Electricity at High Pressures and Frequencies
You can see the pdf link in the left column.

I originally found this book in Lindsay Publications years ago..soon after walked into a used bookstore here just randomly and it was sitting on the shelf. Anyway, this doesn't cost anything.
Electricity at High Pressures and Frequencies (1913) Author: Henry L. Transtrom

Aaron

Thanks for the link to the book. Strange that many of the figures are missing from the scanned book!

Regards

John