Gray Tube Replication

[lamare]

Do we need a wiki page somewhere?

Hi all,

I see a lot of discussion going on here about how the Gray tube works, and there are a few different theories. Since these discussions are shattered all over the thread, it is very hard to keep track of what is going on.

Therefore, I think we need to think of maintaining a wiki page to bring structure into the discussion and think of how we can work more systematically.

What theories do we have?
What experiments could we do to verify or debunk a certain theory?
What experiments have been done?
What were the results?
What can we learn from the results so far?

If we agree that a wiki page is a good idea, where do we host it?
Peswiki??


Furthermore, I'd like to stress that there ain't no such thing as a bad experiment or a bad theory. While I have certain theories that do not necessarily match the theories of others, none of the work people are doing here is useless or "the wrong way", and there is no way to say which theory is the right or wrong, unless we systematically try work out some experiments that bring our knowledge and understanding a step further and document our results in a structured way. Every experiment and idea adds something to our knowledge and understanding and the more we are able to build on previous results and experiments, the further we can all see.

[Marcoz]

Sounds similar to writing a book

My understanding comes from experimentation.
When i post a circuit, you can try it, and it will do what i claim, given you used the correct component values etc.
This has got nothing to do with theory, but all with replicatable results.

Marcoz.

[Altair]

Thanks Aaron for that in-depth explanation in your post 1388. That was much more than I expected and I hope it will also benefit others who just arrive into this thread. This post is a keeper.
I have checked the thread previously a few times in the past 3 months but, as a result, didn't get the feel as to where the experiments were going. Now with that all nicely summed-up in a single place, I can now get up to speed on the whole process.

I also totally agree with LAMARE about the wiki page idea.
As a relatively newcomer to this forum, I can tell you that I spent countless evenings and weekends reading long threads end to end that finally dead-ended for one reason or another. Having a summary available for the important technologies will allow a much quicker integration for newcomers, and serve as an historical brief about the evolution of the ideas and experiments contributed to that particular subject. Of course, the forum can be consulted for all the specific details. The wiki should also include an up-to-date schematic.

Now, if you would be so kind as to do another clarification; when you write "multiple positive voltages moving into each other" and "When one positive voltage is moving into another positive voltage " are you refering to the construction of the tube itself that allows the incoming high voltage to "spread" to a larger area (the electrode) before being transfered to the other electrode, effectively dividing the HV into many paths, or is it some other thing that I missed?
In fact, it's just the expression "multiple positive voltages" that confuses me, I guess.

Regards,

Guy

[Jbignes5]

Lets see...

FYI Aron: FastMHz.com - We Play With Electricity » 24,000j Capacitor Discharge System (Upd Sept 14, 08)

Is this what you guys are talking about? Because it has been done or is being done with regular electricity the right way with proper respect for what he is playing with.
There is no majic force and yes it can be done with out RE. There is the proof and also this came about from a railgun setup. His experiment is a
little larger cap wise but it shows you Can do what you are talking about with good old electricity and actually it uses the same 3 probe arc points.
Also at some point the pulse that gets emited could end up being like a good old emp bomb. I doubt being so close to that would be a good idea at all. Seeing that your body has voltage and current running thru it already. Much like a zap from a medical defibulator but on a much higher scale.

[Aaron]

Gray concept

Exactly,
And anyone that takes a good look at the image i posted yesterday will see that this is no regular cap/coil discharge.

Marcoz.

I saw your schematic Marcoz. It shows the essence of the basic principle in my opinion. The older Gray patent is easier to trace than his newer ones and shows the principle and uses a gap instead of a diode - just remembering off the top of my head.

This effect can be hand as a single shot event and doesn't need "oscillations".

However, what hasn't been shown is the effect at higher speeds, which may manifest something else such as coil cooling, etc... and there may be certain frequencies that the overall system will be more efficient at - and I would bet $ that of course each system would have it's own optimum frequency. It is only speculation what all happens at higher frequency until we show something and Magdude hasn't posted anything else as far as all the other details people want to know about his system.

This whole concept could be operated at high frequency in resonance, where the whole system is synchronized, which is my goal for certain applications. This would be like the Meyer VIC method that I experimented with - like a "DC Resonance" or whatever you want to call it. A unidirectional resonance.

[Aaron]

multiple positives

Thanks Aaron for that in-depth explanation in your post 1388.

Now, if you would be so kind as to do another clarification; when you write "multiple positive voltages moving into each other" and "When one positive voltage is moving into another positive voltage " are you refering to the construction of the tube itself that allows the incoming high voltage to "spread" to a larger area (the electrode) before being transfered to the other electrode, effectively dividing the HV into many paths, or is it some other thing that I missed?
In fact, it's just the expression "multiple positive voltages" that confuses me, I guess.

Hi Guy,

You're welcome and of course that is just my take on things.

The HV from the front side cap jumps into the LV rod with the battery 12v+ sitting there. That is a positive jumping into a positive. Then the diode slams shut, turns this HV away and it has nowhere to go except for the grid which is its only other path to ground - the 2nd or alternative higher resistance path. As it does this, it creates an extremely strong negative pressure behind, which causes a super fast "cold current" punch of current moving into the LV source. Then that moves into another positive from the cap sitting behind the coil, which of course is again connected to the common ground.

Basically, it is getting one positive to move into another positive. Normally, most people think you have to have a negative for the positive to move to but that isn't true. It is only about potential differences.

10v can move into 9v if they share a common ground because you have a difference of 1v that the 10v can move to...not a steep gradient at 1v difference but point is, get a postive to move into another positive, which is connected by a common ground.

Ghst's schematic is almost deceptive but if you trace everything, you'll see they do indeed share a common ground between the ignition coil and the hv capacitor. It is easier to see the common ground on the popular stock Gray schematic and even easier on the older Gray schematic in the patent.

I don't know if I made it more confusing here or not. lol

[Aaron]

3 points

His experiment is a
little larger cap wise but it shows you Can do what you are talking about with good old electricity and actually it uses the same 3 probe arc points.

Would have to see the exact schematic to see what he is doing. I see the picture of three points but that doesn't really tell me anything.

[Jbignes5]

just a trigger

From his description it is a replacement for the scr's he was using to trigger the cap dump. He describes it pretty well. There are other links to his experiments on that site just goto the projects tab on top and walla 3-5 projects based on it.

[Altair]

Thanks Aaron, once again you made it perfectly clear.
Originally, I thought you were talking about 2 (or more) HIGH voltages being connected together, but now I see you were refering to the +12V and HV.
I understand perfectly the effect of joining different voltages together, having a formation in electronics.
Now I just have to work out my own theory as to how this thing is supposed to work

Regards

[Aaron]

tube concept

Exactly,
And anyone that takes a good look at the image i posted yesterday will see that this is no regular cap/coil discharge.

Marcoz.

Marcoz, I found this that I posted a while back here and on Peswiki.
The top diagram is like yours in concept and because of the gap, a diode isn't needed. Anyway, I'm in agreement with the basic concept you show.

This is at: Directory:EV Gray - PESWiki

[antena]

Voltage level

Hallo
Can I have some question about power source of HV ?
I am using MOT so on secondary winding I have about 2200VAC it is rectified 3100VDC. I am using voltage multiplier so I get about 6200VDC.
In my country we have ignition coils that can produce up to 30kV. If I want to charge 4000VDC capacitor I cannt go over this voltage level 4000VDC. If I want to use this ignition coil with 30kV I need to have protection spark gap which guarantee only 4kV level not more.
Or there is another kind of ignition coils which can produce max voltage below 4000V Ghst ?
Thank for anyhow advice
Antena

[stevend]

First tests with Van de Graaff machine power supply

My diodes finally arrived Thursday and I spent Friday assembling it all and doing my first tests (plus a few last night when it was dark.) If you recall, my plan was to use a Van de Graaff machine as the power supply to test if the effect could be gotten with the same high voltage but low current. i.e. Hoping for some quantum vacuum energy tapping in the tube. I uploaded a video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWIbbFJzW3k
I also started a webpage about it here:
http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/ev_gray/..._graaff_01.htm
and while I was at it, added a main EV Gray tube page to my website:
http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/ev_gray/index.htm

So far, no radiant event. But it's early days.

I took C1 out altogether since I realized my Van de Graaf machine is a capacitor, but I kept the microwave oven diode on the positive lead. Also, I started out with C2 as a 5kV, 5uF capacitor but given the small current from the Van de Graaff machine, it charged way to slowly. So I replaced it with a homemade 340picofarad capacitor and then it charged just fine to 1500kV.

I do wonder if I should be using a pulsing power supply. i.e. Should the input to the circuit be a high voltage, DC spike? Or is it okay that the only spikes that happen are a result of the spark gap between the HV and LV rods and the arcing in the gap between the HV rod and the grid? In the latter case I guess I'm relying on the diodes to keep any spike DC without oscillations. I have a scope but I'd hate to use it in this case since the one connection of the scope probe is Earth ground and I don't want any Earth ground in this circuit. I want it entirely floating out of fear of Earth grounding destroying any quantum vacuum energy tapping effect.

Aaron, I mentioned your name in the youtube description and on the web pages. Let me know if you don't want it there and I'll remove it. I like giving credit where due.
-Steve

[Marcoz]

Marcoz, I found this that I posted a while back here and on Peswiki.
The top diagram is like yours in concept and because of the gap, a diode isn't needed. Anyway, I'm in agreement with the basic concept you show.

This is at: Directory:EV Gray - PESWiki

Hi Aaron

I am happy to see the diagram you posted.
I have never seen it before, but it confirms that my findings are indeed correct.
When no spark gap is used, parts of the circuit resistance will not be opend/closed by the spark, because it is not there.
That is the reason why i use diodes in a non-spark setup.
It's only a means to Prevent unwanted oscillations which may overlap repetition rate ,poisioning the clean DC and happens when there is back flow.

Marcoz.

[Marcoz]

Hallo
Can I have some question about power source of HV ?
I am using MOT so on secondary winding I have about 2200VAC it is rectified 3100VDC. I am using voltage multiplier so I get about 6200VDC.
In my country we have ignition coils that can produce up to 30kV. If I want to charge 4000VDC capacitor I cannt go over this voltage level 4000VDC. If I want to use this ignition coil with 30kV I need to have protection spark gap which guarantee only 4kV level not more.
Or there is another kind of ignition coils which can produce max voltage below 4000V Ghst ?
Thank for anyhow advice
Antena

Hello Antenna

If you use a overshoot gap that is constantly triggerd due to the voltage being too high, this will create an awefull lot of RF noise that can be seen on all lines around the circuit making it un-stable.
There are several ways to charge the capacitors.
You can pulse a big coil and extract it's inductive kickback, which works great to charge caps because the output voltage goes much higher then the input spike.
Or use voltage multipliers, adding and removing stages and adjusting frequency and input voltage untill the desired voltage is reached.

Or you can put in a regulator which regulate power to the ignition coil or flyback so that its output is lower.
Tunning is simple, just turn it up unloaded untill the cap reaches 4Kv and then when it drops too much when loaded, you can turn it up some more.
Monitoring the voltage of the cap can be done by using a simple 10:1 divider so when there is 4000V in the cap, your DMM will show 400Volts.
Small note: Ignition coils can charge low capacity caps rather fast, but when it comes to keeping it charged in a running setup, they usually cannot keep up with the discharge so usually lots of current is needed on the input stage that drives the low resistance primary,it will get hot, can melt or even explode when overdriven too much.
For example i have some ignition coils that are designed for 12Volts, i put in like 30Volts, but i cannot operate it continously without damaging the coil, and it get's really hot too.

Thumbrule spark: 1cm=10Kv
If you do use an overshoot gap just start with one mm then it should fire at a 1000 Volts, then adjust the gap to like 3mm than watch what it does and so you can adjust it by starting with the smalles distance.
When caps are charged over their operating voltage, then can violently explode, a messy and dangerous situation, be carefull.

Don't take any risk and DISCHARGE before modifying your circuit.
4Kv is leathal.

Marcoz.

[Marcoz]

I do wonder if I should be using a pulsing power supply. i.e. Should the input to the circuit be a high voltage, DC spike? Or is it okay that the only spikes that happen are a result of the spark gap between the HV and LV rods and the arcing in the gap between the HV rod and the grid?

-Steve

Hello Steve
It should always be High Voltage DC.
Waiting untill it fires due to enough voltage potential diffrence between the elements, is similar to the brute force methode Tesla used.

In a well designed tube, like Gray's, the circuit is switched by capacitance at a constant rate, If input voltage is stable.
The chance of someone building a tube of the correct values for the first time, is limited, but even the brute force methode can show the basic effect.
There are certain calculations to be taken into account, relating to Grid-Anode capacity's, which is being determined by the spacing and dimentions of the elements.
Even humidity plays a great,Great role.
Gray explained it by saying something about lightning being stronger close to the ground.
The frequency of my circuit change a lot whenever i breathe at it

Marcoz.