How can one grid tie a generator

[ewizard]

rickoff, thanks that's great info on the grid tie and how to go about that regarding your utility company. I wasn't aware of the IM info either, all great info to know. I had not read the older messages in this recently resurected but very informative thread. I also found George Wiseman's site after Googling his name. He does have some very interesting info and saw someone had put up one of his books on scrib.com regarding capacitive transformer battery charger info.
If I understand what you are saying correctly then running an IM from a gas engine is way more efficient than running a gas powered generator?

[sucahyo]

The info you are looking for was described and linked in my post #3 in this thread. Here's a link to the book that I mentioned in that post. I have had one for quite some time, and it is excellent - tells you everything you will need to know about the subject of grid tying, and all the protective and switching circuits are included. Reverse Your Electric Meter, Legally! [4901.99.00.503] - $14.00 : Eagle-Research Store George Wiseman operates Eagle Research, and has several interesting paper books and e-books available. I would also suggest you go back and read my posts #3 and #7 on the subject.

Rick

Lol, how can I miss that ...... . Thanks Rick.

[rickoff]

rickoff, thanks that's great info on the grid tie and how to go about that regarding your utility company. If I understand what you are saying correctly then running an IM from a gas engine is way more efficient than running a gas powered generator?

It would certainly be far less expensive to set up, considering that induction motors can easily be found for little or no expense. You can find a suitable one in a junked appliance such as a washing machine, or look for one at a motor repair shop. They often scrap motors that have bad start windings, and the start windings aren't needed. The run windings rarely go bad, and that's all you need. I don't necessarily suggest that anyone use a gas engine to drive the IM, unless it is GEET equipped or otherwise modified to run mainly on used oil and water.

Speaking of powering a generator on waste oil, are you aware of the new Phoenix-10 waste oil powered generator? To my thinking, a unit of this type is the cat's meow of home use power generation. This unit uses external combustion of waste oil to superheat steam for a small (25 cubic inch, 16 hp, 6 cylinder radial) steam engine which in turn drives the IM to produce electricity. The steam is then condensed and returns to a small holding tank, so there is never any need to add water to the system. And there are zero emissions. Sounds good, huh? Here are links to the Phoenix-10 generator, and the steam engine that is used:

Phoenix-10 Generator

Cyclone Power Technologies Waste Heat Engine

These units are proven, and will be marketed soon, but I suspect the price will be rather high. I see no reason, however, why we couldn't develop a similar type generator system using a different engine that would be relatively simple to build. I would suggest simplifying the build with use of a small Tesla turbine. If enough people are interested in taking on such a project then perhaps we could start a project thread on the idea.

Rick

[Monkeyron]

Generator

I would suggest simplifying the build with use of a small Tesla turbine. If enough people are interested in taking on such a project then perhaps we could start a project thread on the idea.

Rick

Rick,
This Tesla Turbine Generator was a Plan that I had a few months back. I had applied to the Pepsi Refresheverything.com Grant Project but did not receive the Popular Vote to get it funded. James Arthur in Vegas is working on a New Designed similar Turbine powered by HHO & Cold Fog. He's almost to the point of Power up on the Prototype. I hope to be there when he Fires it up.
M~R

[Infiltrator]

Hi There



I have been reading what you have written on Grid tie generators, I have even purchased the book that has been recommended here (Reverse your electric meter legally) but I am having some issues figuring out how to do what I actually want to do.

What I currently have is an i-credit 500 meter at the first point of the house. This is connected to my house and to an Olemaier PAC 2 connected to a 1.5 Kw Solar array.

What I want to do is buy something like this DIESEL GENERATOR SILENCED 8 KVA 3 PHASE SINGLE PHASE | eBay so I can use some of my 2000 litres of free biodiesel to generate electricity as well and offset some more of my power usage.

In looking at the Math, checking my electricity bills shows I have a maximum of about 37.89 kWH/day.

So that would mean about 1.58 an hour.
The generator can produce 6.4 kwh, so if I don't run it at peak, but at approximately 5kwh for 7 hours a day - I should be generating enough to zero out my usage.

So that’s the easy stuff done. My problem comes with how do I actually connect it up?

Do I just plug in from the 240volt ac plug on the generator (the one that would normally go to my workshop tools) and connect it into a wall socket on the house and then start the generator turning? If not, do I need to buy any other hardware (like another inverter like the Olemaier PAC 2 and feed in the dc from the generator into one of these and feed that way?)

Best regards,
Infiltrator

[Project23D]

Generators

Generally store bought generators will not work out of the box for grid-tie. First, they are governed to their operating speed. Second, they have a capacitor that assists with the self-excitation. I've been looking for one myself and have to find a generator unit that does not cost as much as a new car.

I picked up a Kubota D600 3cyl diesel engine to run for power co-generation. A little while later I found a 5HP 230Vac single phase motor to by my IM generation. However, the motor was purchased in haste as its a double pole motor that must be spun 3708 RPM. I wouldn't mind running a gas engine that fast, but not the diesel. However, it may be alright do that.

However, the junk yard just got some nice nearly new 10HP 208Vac three phase motors in. Can these be used to grid tie to single phase utility power?

[thel33tone]

im with diesel

i also have a 3 cyl diesel, im goin to run it on a 2/3 1/3 motor oil to diesel mix which i run in my mercedes and 7.3 f250 and tractor. im going to heat a 500 gallon tank of water with its water jacket and exhaust to make a heat battery for my home heat (boiler style). and to answer your dilemma, i would suggest simply using a pully so you can operate your engine a bit above idle and yet still achieve the 3000+ rpm on the IM generator with a small pulley. i may set mine up that way too because i dont want my motor to use much fuel since im using it for heat and im sure it can make 10 horse near idle.

[thel33tone]

Infiltrator,
what you want to do, is use your free fuel (biodiesel) generator to power an ac 240 volt motor, then use that motor to drive an IM motor to backfeed the power, problem solved inexpensively! yayy

[PPG]

Speaking of powering a generator on waste oil, are you aware of the new Phoenix-10 waste oil powered generator? To my thinking, a unit of this type is the cat's meow of home use power generation. This unit uses external combustion of waste oil to superheat steam for a small (25 cubic inch, 16 hp, 6 cylinder radial) steam engine which in turn drives the IM to produce electricity. The steam is then condensed and returns to a small holding tank, so there is never any need to add water to the system. And there are zero emissions. Sounds good, huh? Here are links to the Phoenix-10 generator, and the steam engine that is used:

Phoenix-10 Generator

Cyclone Power Technologies Waste Heat Engine

These units are proven, and will be marketed soon, but I suspect the price will be rather high. I see no reason, however, why we couldn't develop a similar type generator system using a different engine that would be relatively simple to build. I would suggest simplifying the build with use of a small Tesla turbine. If enough people are interested in taking on such a project then perhaps we could start a project thread on the idea.

Rick[/QUOTE]

Rick
Just to follow up on the reference to Phoenix Power. The initial unit, the Phoenix 10, is a 10kW class genset that uses waste energy in the form of waste oil, etc. to produce electricity. If an end user has access to such "free" fuel then the P10 pencils out very well. Payback should be in the 3 year range depending on the local utility rates. You are right, it will be a lot more expensive than say a Honda generator that you can buy at the local hardware store but where the Honda type generator will never pay for itself due fuel costs, the P10 will actually save $$ or create a revenue stream.

Cheers:
PPG

[tcfito]

Water Wheel

I built a water wheel, and am now looking for a place where I can buy the induction motor, and everything else I need to tie to my grid.
Does anyone know where I can buy all that I need ?
Thanks,
Tom

[chrisd]

3 phase

Since most of the cheap larger motors out there are 3 phase, is there a way to wire a 3 phase motor when using it as a generator in a home application?

[rickoff]

Since most of the cheap larger motors out there are 3 phase, is there a way to wire a 3 phase motor when using it as a generator in a home application?

A three phase motor can be connected to a single phase power supply by simply using any two of the three connection terminals, and it will run at 2/3 of its rated horsepower after being spun up somehow. To operate a 3 phase motor at full rated horsepower from a single phase supply you need to use a rotary phase converter (RPC). A RPC can also be used in backwards mode, which means that a 3 phase motor driven to generate 3 phase power can safely send that power through the RPC to a single phase connection. Google the term "Rotary Phase Converter" and you will find tons of info on the subject.

Rick

[rickoff]

I built a water wheel, and am now looking for a place where I can buy the induction motor, and everything else I need to tie to my grid.
Does anyone know where I can buy all that I need ?
Thanks,
Tom

You can usually find a decent induction motor (IM) at a junk yard, or a motor repair shop, that can be had free or cheap. Most motor problems that lead to people scrapping the motor are with the start windings, but the run windings very seldom go bad. All you need is a motor with good run windings. Look for a junked washing machine, for example, and salvage the motor from it. Or go to a motor repair shop and tell them you are looking for an IM of X horsepower rating with bad start windings but good run windings, and tell them it's worth $25 to you if they call you when they get one. To grid tie it, all you need do is connect it to a switch and plug it in to a household outlet. You have to drive it up to a steady rpm above the normal operating rpm, and then throw the switch on. If the switch is thrown on before the motor reaches overdrive speed then the motor will be using power. At overdrive speed the motor will be generating power which is either used by your household or sent to the grid. A four pole IM rated at 1800 rpm synchronous speed will usually develop its rated hp at about 1745 rpm, which is 55 rpm less than the rating. To turn the same IM into a generator of the same hp rating, you only need to increase the rpm's to about 1855. That's just 55 rpm, or 3%, above the synchronous rating. You don't need to spin it up any faster than that, and doing so would just cause the IM to heat up. You can run it continuously at 1855 rpm, as a generator, with no heat problem. Your greatest problem in a water wheel setup will be regulating the speed of the water wheel to achieve a steady 1855 rpm of the driven IM whenever the IM is switched on. Remember that too slow means using power rather than generating it, and too fast means an overheated IM.

Let's say that your water wheel revolves at 18.55 rpm under normal conditions. At that rate, you need to have a drive ratio of 100 revolutions for the IM to each revolution of the water wheel. Under such a large ratio, a slight change in water flow rate can have a large change in IM rpm. For example, if the rpm of your water wheel increases to just 20 rpm after a rain storm, your IM would be rotating at 2000 rpm and getting rather hot.

I would suggest that you show some pictures and dimensions of your water wheel in the water wheel thread.

Rick

[YANUARDI]

inverter n IM

i want to connect 3 phase inverter with induction generator, can i do that?
am i need synchonize two of them?
thank