Flux control generators

[Ted Ewert]

Hildenbrand, Flynn, Magnacoaster... all seem to use the same type of magnetic current control to leverage flux paths. I posted a device, which I'm in the process of constructing, in the Flynn thread which takes advantage of this technology. I'll repost it at the end of this message so anyone interested doesn't have to hunt it down.
Another iteration of this Idea can be used with a rotor and some magnets, to convert rotational power into electrical power, as in a windmill. Here is a diagram of my idea:



As seen in the diagram (pretend the rotor and stator magnets are of equal value), flux would flow through the core of coil 2 and coil 3. Coil 1 would see little if any flow.
When the polarity of the rotor magnet is reversed, flux would cease to flow through coil 2 and 3, since like poles would face each other, and all the flux from the stator magnets would flow through the core of coil 1.
Of course, this is an ideal scenario and reality would probably find leakage flows in all three cores.
Nevertheless, the force of passing one magnet past the stator is controlling the flux of two (or more) magnets.
I haven't built or tested any of these concepts yet, but they seem promising so I thought you guys might be interested. If a couple of us can build working models we may have something.
Anyway, here's the other post I mentioned earlier:

I'm just about to build and test a generator concept based on the Flynn and Hildenbrand technologies.
As you can see in the drawings, the magnets are encased in a steel jacket, around which is wound a coil, just like the Hildenbrand electromagnet. This coil would be a bifiler wind with an energizing coil and a collection coil.
Normally the magnetic current will travel from the magnets and through the jacket from one pole to the other, as in #3. However, when the inner coil is energized, it reverses the domains in the jacket, cutting off that return path for the magnet's current (#2). The current is then forced into the outer coils where it is used for power. This current (flux) is twice the current of the magnets alone since the inner energizing coil is adding at least as much as the magnets to be able to reverse the current flow through the jacket.
For one unit of magnetic force I get two units traveling through the outer coils. This is where we pick up extra energy. We also pick up some energy from the inner collection coil since any change in current direction produces power.
The next pulse is in the opposite direction through the inner coil. This is necessary since the domains in the jacket won't switch all by themselves (won't switch quickly anyway). This "reset"pulse only needs to be a very short duration in order to realign the domains. Once the current flows from the magnets, the inner collection coil again produces power.
The pulse frequency, voltage, and power would all have to be figured out. The engineering of this unit will take a while to get dialed in. However, there is undeniable gain every time the magnets get "switched". Increasing the efficiency will only produce more power.
I'm going to start construction this weekend. I need to design the outer cores to handle the increased current and efficiently transform that into power. Lots of parameters to consider but I think the basic Idea is workable.
I need to figure out a switching circuit to control the coil, but I have to do some tests first to determine the amount of power needed to switch and reset.
If you or anyone else wants to build one of these things that would be great.
Sharing ideas and solutions is always more productive.

Here are a few basic drawings I made. I put them in a public photo folder if they don't appear for you below: Picasa Web Albums - Ted - Hildenbrand F...







Cheers,

Ted

[gyula]

Hi Ted,

I think you are on a good approach towards getting unconventional results, at least the possibility is inherent in your setups I think.

There is one thing I miss from your descriptions and it is the effect of Lenz law... I wonder what is your take on this question wrt your shown setups.

Thanks, Gyula

[broli]

I would consider C shaped cores with corners instead of the curved once you have. Like this:


These can be probably be found/made easier.

Secondly I would also advise you to be more informed. There's a certain relation between all the parts. There are some people who have valuable information about this. Here is something to consider...

Magnetic energy pump OU motor

[Ted Ewert]

Hi Ted,

I think you are on a good approach towards getting unconventional results, at least the possibility is inherent in your setups I think.

There is one thing I miss from your descriptions and it is the effect of Lenz law... I wonder what is your take on this question wrt your shown setups.

Thanks, Gyula

Hi Gyula,
The Lenz effect is only applicable to the first configuration since that one has a rotor. It will certainly affect rotation as the field in coil 2 and coil 3 collapse. This will cause the cores of these two coils to polarize with opposite poles facing the magnet, which will hold the rotor back.
There is a way to mitigate this effect by attaching a small strip of steel to the front and rear of the core, outside of the coil, which will "short out" most of this residual flux. This shorting bar does not effect the efficiency of the coil since the core, when the coil is charging, is a much lower impedance path for the flux. I've used these devices in the past to good result.
The switching losses are the major power drain with both of these devices. However, the multiplication of flux density through the coils will hopefully more than compensate for these costs.
Designing efficient cores and windings will be the most challenging part IMHO. I have figured out a way to beat a lot of the heat build up inherent with neos passing close to steel. I use a combination of magnetite sand, #7 steel shot and fiberglass resin. This totally prevents eddy currents although it has less permeability than solid steel. It does have the advantage of being able to be cast into any shape, saving a lot of time and expense in machining.

Cheers,

Ted

[Ted Ewert]

I would consider C shaped cores with corners instead of the curved once you have. Like this:


These can be probably be found/made easier.

Secondly I would also advise you to be more informed. There's a certain relation between all the parts. There are some people who have valuable information about this. Here is something to consider...

Magnetic energy pump OU motor

C cores could work, although I like to cover as much core material as I can with copper, and those corners are a pain to wind.
Thanks for the heads up on the OU thread. I try and stay away from that place because there are too many nasty skeptics, and it just seems nutty over there.
I use layered steel pipe (electrical conduit) for the jacket around the magnets. It's nice and soft, cheap, and round just like my magnets. I also offset it from the magnets for the very reason wizkycho gave: that the flux induced by the coil only reaches so deep into the core. Also, the more surface area the core has, the better it will couple into the coil for the generation of electrical current. This is because the field only penetrates one or two rows into the coil.

Cheers,

Ted

[Joit]

Hi,
Thats a great Setup, what you want to build up there, and i hope, that it works like you want it to.
I feel poor, when i look at it, lol.

Someone pushed me to the Fluxgenerator, here
Übersetzte Version von http://www.rafoeg.de/index.php/seite/10,Forschungsprojekte/20,Generatoren/Generatoren.html
At Picture 2.1 you see the ironcross, what is moved by the Motor, interrupt the Flux, and its generating this Way the Current.
Its a simple Form of a Fluxgate generator.
He also stated, that it will work.
Well, at the Webpage from an other Motor, the Autor said, it still needs some Power.
The Motor consume at load lesser Power, but get higher Rpm at Load.
It reminds me at the Vid from this Guy, what did connect 2 Motors, and shows slightly OU at the Meter.
But the Idea of interrupt the Flux with a Cross is maybe not a bad Idea.

[Ted Ewert]

Hi,
Thats a great Setup, what you want to build up there, and i hope, that it works like you want it to.
I feel poor, when i look at it, lol.

Someone pushed me to the Fluxgenerator, here
Übersetzte Version von http://www.rafoeg.de/index.php/seite/10,Forschungsprojekte/20,Generatoren/Generatoren.html
At Picture 2.1 you see the ironcross, what is moved by the Motor, interrupt the Flux, and its generating this Way the Current.
Its a simple Form of a Fluxgate generator.
He also stated, that it will work.
Well, at the Webpage from an other Motor, the Autor said, it still needs some Power.
The Motor consume at load lesser Power, but get higher Rpm at Load.
It reminds me at the Vid from this Guy, what did connect 2 Motors, and shows slightly OU at the Meter.
But the Idea of interrupt the Flux with a Cross is maybe not a bad Idea.

Hi Joit,
Why would you feel poor? It will cost me about $20 to build that thing. I don't use any exotic materials, nor do I have any expensive machining done. Everything I build can be built with a moderate tool selection and parts commonly available.
Precision machining and exotic materials are fine, and if I ever get a concept to run with I'll take full advantage of them. But for experimentation I can't afford the time and expense.
The flux gate generator on the site you showed is very nice, but it doesn't use any leverage to control extra flux. What I'm trying to do here is to use less energy to control more flux. I want to be able to control 2X
(or more) flux with 1X flux and be able to recover the excess. I know it can be done if one is clever enough.
Do you want to build one of these things?
Cheers,
Ted

[gyula]

....
There is a way to mitigate this effect by attaching a small strip of steel to the front and rear of the core, outside of the coil, which will "short out" most of this residual flux. This shorting bar does not effect the efficiency of the coil since the core, when the coil is charging, is a much lower impedance path for the flux. I've used these devices in the past to good result.

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your interesting answer. Probably you mean then you will use those small steel strips outside your output coils in your 'motionless' setups?

My understanding on Lenz law in cases of 'motionless' setups is that it affects operation in the same way like in a moving (rotor-stator) case. And in cases of flux multiplication in the outside coil's cores the load current will "fight back" with a counter flux that already 'includes' the increased flux hence the counter flux will also be greater. Is not this so here, I wonder.

The switching losses are the major power drain with both of these devices. However, the multiplication of flux density through the coils will hopefully more than compensate for these costs.
Designing efficient cores and windings will be the most challenging part IMHO. I have figured out a way to beat a lot of the heat build up inherent with neos passing close to steel. I use a combination of magnetite sand, #7 steel shot and fiberglass resin. This totally prevents eddy currents although it has less permeability than solid steel. It does have the advantage of being able to be cast into any shape, saving a lot of time and expense in machining.

Sounds good to me and perhaps you could use very high permeabilty ferrite material what you could crush into powder with a hammer crusher (or with a normal hammer if you wrap up the ferrite into a piece of cloth etc.) Then you could mix the ferrite powder with your fiberglass resin. The received material's permeability will be less than the original ferrite of course but still useful in a shape of your choice.

Thanks and keep up good work.

rgds, Gyula

[Ted Ewert]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your interesting answer. Probably you mean then you will use those small steel strips outside your output coils in your 'motionless' setups?

My understanding on Lenz law in cases of 'motionless' setups is that it affects operation in the same way like in a moving (rotor-stator) case. And in cases of flux multiplication in the outside coil's cores the load current will "fight back" with a counter flux that already 'includes' the increased flux hence the counter flux will also be greater. Is not this so here, I wonder.

Hi Gyula,
I would only use the strips on a core that "ends in air". This gives the collapsing field residual somewhere to go. The motionless coils all loop internally so no strip is necessary.
I look at the Lenz effect in the motionless unit the same as any inductor. There is initial current impedance within the coil as the field is expanding, then there is the collapse, which produces current in the same direction, which also prolongs the magnetization of the core in that particular polarity.
The flux within the core faces just the opposite impedances as that of the electrical current. Initially there is a very low impedance as the coil draws off much of the flow as electrical current. Once the core is saturated, and the field fully extended, impedance increases as the core's permeability is decreased.
Resonance, or high efficiency is achieved when all these processes work sequentially at an optimal rate. That's the tricky part. Core size and material, coil impedance and physical configuration all effect this dance.
Nevertheless, every unit has a sweet spot which, once found, should give a pretty good idea if the concept is viable or not.

Sounds good to me and perhaps you could use very high permeabilty ferrite material what you could crush into powder with a hammer crusher (or with a normal hammer if you wrap up the ferrite into a piece of cloth etc.) Then you could mix the ferrite powder with your fiberglass resin. The received material's permeability will be less than the original ferrite of course but still useful in a shape of your choice.

Thanks and keep up good work.

rgds, Gyula

Thanks for your kind words.
I have tried crushed ferrite cores as you suggested, and it works about the same as the sand. I have a beach close by where I can get as much black magnetic sand as I need, so I use that to supplement the steel shot. I throw in steel shavings from the drill press too. I also use "fence wire", which is the same as the wire used to attach steel rebar together in concrete forms. Any soft steel wire will work. BB's, steel wool and welding rods also work as core material when mixed with resin. It just depends on what your application is and the availability of materials as far as what to use goes. Neo's have so much flux that you can often get away with using less permeable cores and still get satisfactory results.
For other construction I like the weldable steel bars that are available at most hardware stores. They're nice and soft and magnets love them. They might not be suitable in a long term setup due to heat build up, but they are perfect for mock ups and experimenting. They are also easy to cut and drill.



Ted

[Joit]

Hi Ted,
I would wanna build one, but right now, i rebuild another Bedini Motor,
the one i have, i give to a Friend, but i want another one for myself.
And i still got another Idea from another Generator, only done with Magnets,
But the Wires should be along the direction of rotation, not across, like its made at the most Generators.
But not sure about it right now, i need first to complete this one.
I didnt see that you will make it at Solid State. so i guess, you will build a Transistor on it, or anything, what turns the Coils off and on?

[rickoff]

Another iteration of this Idea can be used with a rotor and some magnets, to convert rotational power into electrical power, as in a windmill. Here is a diagram of my idea:



As seen in the diagram (pretend the rotor and stator magnets are of equal value), flux would flow through the core of coil 2 and coil 3. Coil 1 would see little if any flow.
When the polarity of the rotor magnet is reversed, flux would cease to flow through coil 2 and 3, since like poles would face each other, and all the flux from the stator magnets would flow through the core of coil 1.
Of course, this is an ideal scenario and reality would probably find leakage flows in all three cores.
Nevertheless, the force of passing one magnet past the stator is controlling the flux of two (or more) magnets.
I haven't built or tested any of these concepts yet, but they seem promising so I thought you guys might be interested. If a couple of us can build working models we may have something.
Ted

Ted, Could you repost the diagram mentioned above, in your #1 post? It didn't show - just get a box with the red X inside, indicating a problem. The other pictures, near the bottom, were fine.

Thanks,

Rick

[boguslaw]

OU in magnets is now open issue !

There are endless possibilities here. The key is to switching magnet field on and off from particular point in space. For example simple Adams motor would be now OU easily , you need only minimum one pushing magnet enclosed with Hildebrand magnetic switch.When magnet on rotor is coming nearby this stator coil, you have magnet enclosed with cover which shorts flux inside small area,so there is no repulsion.Then on proper moment an impulse to coil extend field and even enlarge it to push rotor away.

Bingo! You have constructed probably basic magnacoaster device.

[Ted Ewert]

Ted, Could you repost the diagram mentioned above, in your #1 post? It didn't show - just get a box with the red X inside, indicating a problem. The other pictures, near the bottom, were fine.

Thanks,

Rick

Sorry Rick, don't know what happened there, here it is again:

[Ted Ewert]

There are endless possibilities here. The key is to switching magnet field on and off from particular point in space. For example simple Adams motor would be now OU easily , you need only minimum one pushing magnet enclosed with Hildebrand magnetic switch.When magnet on rotor is coming nearby this stator coil, you have magnet enclosed with cover which shorts flux inside small area,so there is no repulsion.Then on proper moment an impulse to coil extend field and even enlarge it to push rotor away.

Bingo! You have constructed probably basic magnacoaster device.

You got it! I can't wait to try one of these electromagnets in a Bedini SG. That could get the rotor really moving. In fact, I'm going to use the same circuit to pulse the MEG / magnacoaster type unit.
You're right about the endless possibilities. I'm already two generations down the road in my head. I can see how my next few months are going to be spent.



Ted

[Joit]

Hi
Well i played (again) a bit around with Magnets,
it looks like, the Spin from the Pole goes Counter Clock Wise,
so maybe its better, to wind a Coil like this, to make it easier to oscillate.
I guess all what left, is to tryout, wich Direction works better.