Flux control generators

[Ted Ewert]

Hi
Well i played (again) a bit around with Magnets,
it looks like, the Spin from the Pole goes Counter Clock Wise,
so maybe its better, to wind a Coil like this, to make it easier to oscillate.
I guess all what left, is to tryout, wich Direction works better.

Hi Joit,
I've had an interesting few days with the units I built. They didn't work at all the way I thought! The "power coils" didn't produce squat, but the bifiler control coils did.
I built this unit:



I fed the control coil an approximately 1 khz square wave from a PWM. I drove the signal with an IGBT off a 12 volt supply. Initially the draw was around 5 amps.
The output from the "power" coils was negligible, although the waveform was instructive. This was a typical triangular wave normally associated with magnetic devices. However it was distorted.
So I started playing around with the duty cycle to try and clean up this waveform. As soon as I got a good waveform the current dropped to under 1 amp.
The frequency also had an effect, but in a much broader sense. The duty cycle was key to tuning this unit. The input / output ratio varied considerably depending on how it was tweaked, but typically it was around the following numbers when peaked:
The input was 12 volts @ 3/4 amp
The output from the control coil was 8 volts @ 7/8 amp
I could get an amp and a half from the control coil @ 10 v but the input went up to about 6 amps.
I have to say that I don't fully understand this mechanism yet (understatement). I think the problem with the "power" coils is that the domains in the iron never get flipped. The flux only flows in one direction, although it gets interrupted. Just as there needs to be movement with a magnet in a generator, so does there need to be movement of the magnetic field through a coil.The molecules need to be flipped to generate any power. As they roll over, their fields cut across the windings of the coil, producing current. I don't think this happens much when all the domains remain aligned from one cycle to the next. The field expands and collapses, but that doesn't get you much power.
On the other hand, the domains within the control core are definitely flipping. Once the duty cycle is dialed in, the magnets start to have an effect. How much of an effect I won't know until I test the control coil without any magnets attached. But if the magnets do help with efficiency, this could be a very interesting road to explore. I'll do some more work today and see what happens.



Ted

[Joit]

Hi.
That looks cool anyway.
Well, at the frst View, hows about, when you open the Ends where the Powercoil is attached, and have the Magnets in a U-Shape.
As far i ve seen from PP, the Magnets are both facing at one Side, top or bottom from the Bars, with one Pole, either N or S,
and the Flux is closed at the outside, to send it into a Direction.
And maybe turn the Magnets 90°, that they face both to the upper Bar.
Maybe the Gen-coils in Serie, and i would try to adjust theyr Frequency a bit with a Pot
But its intresting, maybe i take your Design, and build one too

[Joit]

And again, the mechanism...
I can only guessing, that the stronger Field moves more Energie, when the Field is moved.
I saw a Vid lately, where someone attached a Magnet at the End from a Coils with a Ironcore, and got this Way more Current out from it.
At one, you can make a Magnet stronger, when you put Wire around it, and put some Voltage in.
The other, every Wiresize has his own Frequecy from lenght and Thickness.
I build some simple Coils, moved them over a turning Magnet, and get all time a different Frequency from different Wires,
but not from speed of the Motor, its from the Wire.
Maybe you need a good Ratio from Power and Gencoil.

But no clue , wich one, Maybe like the Golden Cut 1:1,610.
Or half, or like Luc, just 3 Windings .
But i would try the half or same as the Powercoil maybe,
and maybe its can be measured by Ohms.
But still would try an Pot, because you cant match the Ohms very well at Thick Wire.

[Ted Ewert]

I built a coaxial transformer, with a magnet in the middle, and it tested similar to the last one. Here's a drawing:




I was able to pulse it and get some power out of the the pick up coil. I tried winding a coil around the outer perimeter, but it produced no power.
I think my problem here is that I don't have enough iron. Iron transforms magnetic force into energy by virtue of becoming magnetic. One strong neo can create a large magnet if given enough iron.
Directing magnetic current isn't particularly difficult. Extracting energy from it is. Even though it flows through steel, it doesn't seem to produce much power in a coil wrapped around that steel.
I'm going to build a giant core and switch a couple of neos through it to see if that's what it takes.



Ted

[Joit]

Lol. do that.
Afterwards i did think about your Coil, where it put out 8V 7 Amps.
the coils been maybe to little. Thick wire needs more turns for more Voltage.

Anyhow, i dont think, you get a lot out, when you wind it around the Core with the Magnets inside. The Flux only moves inside the Iron and to the Magnet, but not outside, where the Wire is.
But i still hope, it works in anyway.
I made now a 3 Coils at my Core.
In the middle is the Generator Coil, but still to less Current, what comes from there.
Broli showed another Link for a pp Motor.
YouTube - motorello
there you can see, how this guy did set it up.
Seems he have Feathers at the left and right side, to move the Iron away.

[Ted Ewert]

Lol. do that.
Anyhow, i dont think, you get a lot out, when you wind it around the Core with the Magnets inside. The Flux only moves inside the Iron and to the Magnet, but not outside, where the Wire is.

The theory with this type of arrangement is to move the flux between the outer core and the inner core. When the coil is pulsed and produces a magnetic polarity opposite to the core magnet, flux flows through the inner core. When it is pulsed so that the inner core is the same polarity as the magnet, the magnet flux (plus the coil flux) is forced to flow through the outer core.
The problem with this design is the same as before; The outer core is not getting the domains flipped. I assumed that the pulse would do this but that is apparently not the case.
At this point I think there has to be substantial flows in both directions through a core in order to generate any power. I need to design a core where magnets of opposite polarities are alternately switched through it. I have some ideas.

But i still hope, it works in anyway.
I made now a 3 Coils at my Core.
In the middle is the Generator Coil, but still to less Current, what comes from there.

Where are your magnets, on the ends? Do you have a picture or a drawing of it?

Broli showed another Link for a pp Motor.
YouTube - motorello
there you can see, how this guy did set it up.
Seems he have Feathers at the left and right side, to move the Iron away.

I'll check it out, thanks.



Ted

[Joit]

Dang it
i guess i really have to make Bifilar Coils.

"Nikola Tesla explains that a standard coil of 1000 turns with a potential of 100 volts across it will have a difference of 0.1 volt between turns. A similar BIFILAR coil will have a potential of 50 volts between turns.
In that the stored energy is a function of the square of the voltages the energy in the BIFILAR will be ... 50 squared / .1 squared = 2500 / .01 = 250,000 times greater than the standard coil"

Tesla Bifilar Coil patent - Bedini Bifilar Coil usage in Schoolgirl Radiant Motor Charging devices | MERLib.org




That are the Coils from it, the right one is the Powercoil, for driving the Motor
the left one is the Trigger coil.
When i switch them, the motor wlll turn slower, so i have to keep it at the right side close at the Rotor.
The only place for the generatorcoil was therefor in the middle.

Below are Sheets from an Transformator with the Magnets, as i did put them on.
At the Coils are only round and bigger Magnets.

I did cut the E-Form at the middle, to get a U, did take 2 Stacks of maybe 20 behind, put at the middle a stronger Magnet and at the End, and made the Core from that.
That white part at the middle between the Coils is the one Magnet, i put Papertape on it, to dont heat it much up with the Hotglue.
They are parted with Cd's, and the screw right side is only for have a hold for a Drillingmachine for winding.
Both Magnets facing with N to the Rotor.
Now i did rewind the middle Coil with thinner Wire, but not much changes.

Well it generates some Power.
But one thing is bad.
When i let the Motor run, and dont have the middle Coil connected to the Circuit, only at my Voltmeter,
but put my Meter into the Amps range and connect the Coil, the Motor stops.
Seems, when there is a Resistance at the Coil, it will prevent it, to generate Amps.
But when i put a Pot between the Ends and turn to higher Resistance, it dont stops.
And when i turn the Pot to low, it stops too, same, when i do short the Coil with the Ends.

I allways thought, there is a Resistor at the Ampmeter, to measure it...
It must be parallel to the Lead, and rest, what goes through the Resistor will show you the Amp at the Meter.
But well, i think that is far from PP. lol.

[Joit]

Another Intresting thing, what i ve found today in a Tesla pdf about Resonace, but unfortunatly its in German, so no Sence, to post it,
so i have to try it with my own Words.

When the Earth would be a Bowl filled with Water, and the Hull is made from Gum,
and you would pump a small Amount of Water with a Pump inside it, and take it out at another place with the same Ammount,
the whole Hull would start after 1h40min? to swing at the same Frequency, as you pump the Water in.

[Ted Ewert]

A Tesla style bifiler coil is good for high voltage, low current applications, such as a Bedini SG. It would be interesting to see if one could switch a magnet off and on. If it did, it would certainly cut down on switching power.
I blew up my last IGBT yesterday when I forgot to load the generator side of the control coil. They are rated for 300 volts and fry instantly if no load is on the secondary. I've run so much current through them that the solder melts on the leads, and the wires fall off, but they don't seem to mind that at all.
I ordered some more at 600 volts which will hopefully be a little more robust. IGBTs work really good for switching and don't require low current dropout to turn off like triacs. They aren't fussy about a drive source, are very fast and don't eat up a whole lot of power. They are fairly cheap too. I paid around $1.60 each through Mouser.
Joit, it sounds like your coils are wired opposite when you connect them together and the thing doesn't work. Try swapping the leads. Which coil are you getting power from?

[Joit]

I would run your Circuit at lower Voltage.
Maybe you can save that way some Lifes from some IGBT's or put a Fuse anywhere in.
I remember, that the Rmot/homopolargenerators at Fraudins Page has some Space at one side of the Magnets, where the Rotor pass too.
One pole has a Stronger Field. For me, its the Southpole, other says Northpole.
Maybe you only need a bit Gap at one side, that the Coils start better oscillate.

And i had my Coils all same side wound.The circuit did run fine,
Even the Rotor turns better, since i have the Magnets at the middle at the Core.
I can run it at 8 V, and it gets pretty speed.
I did try to get from the middle Coil the Power.
Now, i changed to the right Coil near the Rotor, did rewind them all CCW to Cone-style,
because the Magnetfield is there stronger and the cone makes a better N-Pole side push.
I can see it, when i hold a Magnet there, that it starts more vibrating.
At the left side is less change at the Field.
The Coils makes unattached even 8V,
But when i try to get a load from it, it goes down to 3-4V.
Anyhow looks like, there are still some Forces, what i dont count with.
And should get out a better way, how i can feed the Power back to the System as just connecting to - and +.
But a lot to play with.
i think, i go try to figure out a way for a PP device. Lol.

[broli]

Ted here's another intresting device which I made a post about on ou.com

I was again surprised to find nothing on this page about DAN QUALE's lenzless generator. Found here...

lenzlessquale
YouTube - DQuale's Channel

The idea is very simple and effective. You have a rotor with washers. in his case the washers blocks the magnetic field to the cols. The coils in turn see the change in flux and induce a current to counter this change. Now at the moment he hasn't shown really high speeds of his generator, Only hand spun. I think his current setup will give rise to Eddy currents in the washers he uses. These can be eliminated by engineering though. By using thin laminated pieces or some other method. Also the difference in neodymium magnets and ferromagnets hasn't been shown.

Now imagine this generator hooked to Lindermann's attraction motor. You have on one hand a highly efficient motor that gives you almost 90% of its energy back and which provides a non conventional electrical power-to-torque ratio and on the other hand hooked to this motor you have a generator that has no drag on it.

Regardless this makes for a simple replication project.

I also made a follow up post with a different kind of design.

capthook sorry but I disagree. I also thought about eddy currents heavily dragging the rotor but when he let it run down the rotor should have stopped way before the video ended. EVEN if we agree on this fact there's a SIMPLE engineering solution to avoid eddy currents. And that is using laminated washers in such a way that the eddy currents will have a hard time flowing. Here's a diagram that shows mainly the orientation of the laminates. The rest of the diagram shows a hypothetical improvement on his current design. I don't know how well it does really though. But theoretical there should be no back drag what so ever. But in practice there's no such thing as a uniform magnetic field so there will always be small losses.

When the "breaker" rotor is not near the magnetic fields are mainly crossing the air gap. As the breaker nears the magnet field prefer the breaker and the breaker also gets attracted by a magnetic force. At TDC the washer conducts all magnetic field while the coil is doing its thing inducing currents and what not. As the breaker leaves There's again an attraction force of the magnet but that's not a problem since it got attracted by an equal big force at the first stage. Since this a symmetrical process the net force is 0. Resulting in the in free energy from the coil at no cost from the rotor.

This of course isn't the same principle as path changing flux. Rather it's just increasing and decreasing the flux through a stationary coil with a spinning rotor. So it's basically a "drag less" generator that has a rotor speed which is independent of the output. One can imagine many different designs that would give even better results. I wish I had some means to experiment on this.

[Ted Ewert]

I would run your Circuit at lower Voltage.
Maybe you can save that way some Lifes from some IGBT's or put a Fuse anywhere in.
I remember, that the Rmot/homopolargenerators at Fraudins Page has some Space at one side of the Magnets, where the Rotor pass too.
One pole has a Stronger Field. For me, its the Southpole, other says Northpole.
Maybe you only need a bit Gap at one side, that the Coils start better oscillate.

And i had my Coils all same side wound.The circuit did run fine,
Even the Rotor turns better, since i have the Magnets at the middle at the Core.
I can run it at 8 V, and it gets pretty speed.
I did try to get from the middle Coil the Power.
Now, i changed to the right Coil near the Rotor, did rewind them all CCW to Cone-style,
because the Magnetfield is there stronger and the cone makes a better N-Pole side push.
I can see it, when i hold a Magnet there, that it starts more vibrating.
At the left side is less change at the Field.
The Coils makes unattached even 8V,
But when i try to get a load from it, it goes down to 3-4V.
Anyhow looks like, there are still some Forces, what i dont count with.
And should get out a better way, how i can feed the Power back to the System as just connecting to - and +.
But a lot to play with.
i think, i go try to figure out a way for a PP device. Lol.

I takes a while to figure these things out. The more you play with it, the more you'll understand it. I'm still scratching my head over some of the effects, or lack there of, I get.
However, I've pretty much figured out that you have to re polarize iron every cycle to get any power out of it. Flux has to travel in both directions through the core. Just varying the strength of flux in one direction doesn't cut it. And the more iron you can polarize, the more power you get out of the coil.
I built some new designs while waiting for the IGBTs to arrive. If they work at all I'll post some pics.



Ted

[Ted Ewert]

This of course isn't the same principle as path changing flux. Rather it's just increasing and decreasing the flux through a stationary coil with a spinning rotor. So it's basically a "drag less" generator that has a rotor speed which is independent of the output. One can imagine many different designs that would give even better results. I wish I had some means to experiment on this.

Hi Broli,
That guys motor is nothing new. That principal was patented almost 100 years ago.
Does Quale say how much power he's getting from this generator? I couldn't find any numbers on his web site. I wouldn't think it's much.
He thinks he is shunting the flux away from the coil each time his "inductor" passes by. What he is actually doing is creating a lower impedance path from the magnet to the coil. The effect is the same, only his understanding is goofy.



Ted

[broli]

Can you link me to the source of that 100 years old patent please? As for power wouldn't it be about the same as most parallel path motors if it's rerouting the flux?

A question just popped up.

If the rotor passes by will that REALLY be a lower impedance path? Because the far end core with the coil is already magnetized, so the PM will happily use most of that path, no? So maybe not the whole magnetic field is diverted but rather than half or something. Of course you can maybe do away with this problem by putting the coil farther away and the rotor more closer to the PM. Then the PM will definitely choose the rotor's path. DAMN IT I really want to experiment with this.

Can you guys maybe advise how to get started when you have no measuring tools, building material and barely money? The only thing I have plenty is TIME.

[Ted Ewert]

Can you link me to the source of that 100 years old patent please? As for power wouldn't it be about the same as most parallel path motors if it's rerouting the flux?

My mistake, not 100 yrs, only 35. It's called a stationary armature generator and a guy named Ecklin patented it back in the early '70s. Here's a picture:



Notice how the metal arms provide a path from the magnets to the coil, same as the Quale genny.

A question just popped up.

If the rotor passes by will that REALLY be a lower impedance path? Because the far end core with the coil is already magnetized, so the PM will happily use most of that path, no? So maybe not the whole magnetic field is diverted but rather than half or something. Of course you can maybe do away with this problem by putting the coil farther away and the rotor more closer to the PM. Then the PM will definitely choose the rotor's path.

Yes, it will be a lower impedance path. Last time I checked, steel was a much more preferred pathway for magnetic flux than air.

DAMN IT I really want to experiment with this.

Can you guys maybe advise how to get started when you have no measuring tools, building material and barely money? The only thing I have plenty is TIME.

Improvise.



Ted