Pulse motors & cemf

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, I have been running some tests with a permanent magnet pulse motor and I'm seeing results that dont make sense as far as the equality between applied voltage compared to induced voltage also known as cemf. I am aware of all the work of Peter Lindemann and the no back emf design however when using standard motors as examples of the cemf those designs never have a breather in between pulses compared to a pulse motor that doesnt alternate coil poles and allows a breather in between pulses. I do have a question about properly measuring the cemf in a motor, because when i apply my voltmeter across the motor coils which are all in parallel/series i notice as im sure most here are aware that AC voltage is created when using all north or all south facing a coil but im only seeing with a 24 volt input 2.9V however im not so sure that is the actual voltage being input. the reason im not so sure is because when spinning the rotor at the same speed it correlates exactly to that voltage minus 1.4v for darlington pair transistors which actually makes it 1.5V non powered generator mode is all my motor can induce at the same speed as the motor would be running at. So what im saying is i think this motor is actually getting 21V through the coils or a little more if the transistor voltage drop could be lessend. So What do you folks think, am i missing something here as far as measuring this.

peace, love, light

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks. ok i should probably state the kind of motor geometry this is, it is 2 rotors with unlike poles towards each other attracting that is and these rotor magnets are sandwiching aircore coils on inner plate. there are six coils and 6 neo magnets per rotor, the 6 coils are broken up into 3 pairs and each of the coil pairs are in parallel then each coil pair is wired in series with other coil pairs. so since in generator mode the induced voltage of these combined coils doesnt amount to any more than 10-15% of the applied input voltage we dont have the same scenario that Peter Lindemann highlights with standard motors. my only concern is the pulse width of the applied voltage and if it rises to its max voltage. measuring across the transistor shows the expected 21V or higher so again im wondering if im seeing this wrong. any comments are appreciated.

peace, love, light

[Joit]

Hi,
got a Picture from the Motor? IT sounds very complicated..
and a Picture says more then tousand Words, but still, write the tousand words as Comment

I modified my Circuit once, like someone mentioned catch the something back from the First Coil.
Maybe you get enough out for your Source.
Here is the Pic


The Modifications are at Top, beginning with the 220µf Cap left top.

[Joit]

Grr, it wont let me Edit again,
C2 is Painted wrong, its connected to - From Source, and + to +
-
Thats the right Schematic

[cody]

skywatcher

I do believe i know what your talking about. Ive been playing with pulse motors for a while now. First, if your trying to measure the voltage off the collapsing magnetic field of your coil(when you open the switch), voltmeters dont like to read that. I would recommend an oscilloscope. If you dont have one, you could simply use a diode and direct that collapsing pulse into a capacitor, the max voltage the capacitor rises to should be the voltage the pulse is coming out at. Or just put a neon bulb across the both legs of your coil, if it lights you know you are getting around 90v or better. As far as the voltage being created by your magnets going by your coils, dont expect that to be much. If your generator coils are the same as your pulse coils, i found it best to use a switch between motor pulses to direct that energy through a bridge rectifier to whatever. There is an interesting trick to get that magnet induced voltage to climb skyward however, right at the point the magnet reaches the center of your coil, use a switch that shorts the coil to itself(one leg to the other) when that switch opens you will have a high voltage collapsing pulse. Those have to be separate generator coils however(not your pulse coils) and it does put a big load on the motor. I still cant fugure out why that works, learned it from doug konzen. I hope i understood your question correctly and was able to help in some way.

[SkyWatcher]

hi folks, thanks for the replies however im not speaking of bedini type setups whereby we focus on collapsing field recovery. Im saying that im noticing by bringing this pulse motor up to speed at 24V then take note of this speed, then we spin up the motor to this same speed without applying input we are only applying mechanical power to see what the generator induced voltage will be in the coils and like i said all the coils combined can only generate 1.5V, so the point being is that there is now 22.5V usable through the coils to create shaft power. And this with using permanent magnets, not Lindemanns very difficult for most people to build no back emf type motors. If youve seen Peters video no back emf motors you will see he uses standard motors to show a continuous voltage that is almost equal to what would be input at speed however this design is not the same and the way the circuitry is wired is not the same therefore we cannot conclude the same effects as Peter has pointed out. What ya think folks.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, just for more clarification there are only six individual coils on the inner stator plate, there are no generator coils just motor coils and the point is that im turning the rotors externally by another motor just to verify the induce voltage that these combined drive coils will create that would inevitably counter the applied input voltage. and as im saying it doesnt jive with the type of induced voltage standard motors would create to counter our input. also putting a capacitor across the coils would not show the true voltage that would be induced by a magnet passing a coil not to mention since im using all the same permanent magnet poles crossing any coil face we have AC which means that as it leaves a coil it induces an aiding polarity relative to our input helping to prevent buildup of opposing input voltage. i think most people are missing the forest for the trees possibly and any comments or ideas about this are welcome.

[SkyWatcher]

so if we apply 24v and only 1-2V is countering our 24v input isnt that far more efficient than standard motors that destroy 80% of our input voltage as Peter Lindemann points out.

[gyula]

Hi Skywatcher,

Would you tell the induced voltage into one coil alone, unloaded, in the same setup where you use the coil pairs?

Thanks, Gyula

[SkyWatcher]

hi folks, hi gyula. your over in ou.com as well arent you. do you mean just one single coil not wired to any others if so ill measure it. So do you see a flaw in the reasoning here, im not saying for sure its actually only outputting this 1-2V it does seem to be based on running it in generator mode with volt meter across coils.

[gyula]

Hi, yes, I am and will comment subject later.

Yes, I mean it, just one single coil, loaded by a voltmeter (high impedance).

Gyula

[SkyWatcher]

hi folks. ok gyula an individual coil is outputting about .5V at the equivalent speed of 24V pulsed input.

[gyula]

Hi Skywatcher,

Well, you receive pretty low induced voltage from one coil, though I do not know yet if it is good or bad... The reason is twofold, while it sounds very good that the induced emf in a motor coil is low when tested as a generator coil because this surely means back emf is low in motor mode but if I recall Garry Stanley's tests he wrote getting 8V from one coil when he rotated the magnets at a speed that corresponded to a 12V pulsed motor mode (this was when he used 12V only because he used several variations as supply voltages up to 96V).

Probably the big difference in induced voltage in case of his and your single coil tests can be explained by possible difference in the coils used and also the possible difference in magnets strength. He used 1.1mH flat coils taken out from old floppy disk drives, the wire was 0.3mm enamelled Cu with 4 Ohm DC resistance, the thickness across the flat side was about 3mm. The wire length is roughly 16 meters for a 0.3mm copper wire for the 4 Ohm DC resistance. If I recall correctly he used N35 grade disk magnets of 18mm OD and 5mm thickness.
The distance between any two magnets unlike poles facing each other was about 8-9mm max so this was the air gap in which the two parallel connected flat coils got 'embedded' when the magnet pairs started rotating.

So back to your question, there is another thing to consider which is the input power to flux conversion efficiency of the air coil pairs. Common sense has it the higher the voltage you can induce in a coil the better this conversion efficiency is but this is valid for single coils of course and I mean here this same efficiency should work vice versa, i.e. when you need flux from input power.
In case of coils connected in parallel with each other and with their voltages out of phase, the resultant induced voltage is much smaller wrt a single coil. And this low resultant induced voltage should be very good to fight against normal electric motor shortcomings.

But this is all so mainly in my theory or ala conventional theory and this is why I would suggest you measure mechanical torque at your motor shaft, this is the only way to get closer to the truth.

I wonder if you are aware of Ron's excellent series of tests taken on two flat coils? See this link to Norman's site: Garry 2 flat coils motor tests by Ron Pugh

Please study the tests thoroughly. Ron used the same type of coil pair like Garry, you can see how that coils look like in the first picture.
Test #6 corresponds to Garry's setup: the two coils were connected in parallel and in opposite phase. But Ron loaded this coil pair in his test #7 and this was NOT the case in Garry's motor because the switch was open the moment a magnet pair just passed the coils' center line.
So wanting to use the parallel coil pair in generator mode does give normal Lenz law behavior. This was not done by Garry. Lenz law surely manifests when you switch on the current to the coil pairs in the right moment the magnet pairs approaching (because during ON-time the battery places a short circuit across the coil pairs via the switch) but after switch-off there can be no Lenz effect. (Notice: you can choose to repel the magnets when they just passed the coils center line and not attract the magnets when they have come near to the coil pairs, some say the repel mode is better...)

So hope this may answer your questions?

Regards, Gyula

[SkyWatcher]

hi gyula, hope you had a nice holiday. yes ive read ron's test setup however i'm seeing this i think as garry was seeing it. and that is from the simple perspective of voltage is what really matters without a voltage differential we have little current flow and with a greater differential we have more current flow. So yes i do see lenz being generated but the difference i see is that in typical motors there is much more input voltage being wasted by induced voltage compared with what im seeing in this motor and after all lenz needs its own induce generator voltage to create enough of an effect or current to counter applied input significantly, cause without it the lenz effect is small and like i said we also have liitle counter emf so i do believe i see fully what Garry was speaking of. Also the benefits of aircore coils without certain losses, deflection, etc. and both coil poles used. This motor by the way has plenty of guts and i will be testing with a prony brake soon. I'm hooking up a cap discharger from capturing flyback to charge separate batteries as we speak to squeeze out some more efficiency.

peace, love, light

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, ok i was testing out the cap discharger and it wasnt performing as well as i would have liked although i know the cap method does work, probably a matter of tuning, so i tried just the typical method like bedini with one diode routing the flyback and decided to route it to a 2400uf 450V cap with a 12v battery in parallel to cap and i noticed an interesting thing. As is usual hooking up a 12v battery to receive the flyback usually draws no extra current when using a similar 12v source battery, however i decided to use 24V that being 2-12V batteries in series as the source input charging a 12V battery and to my surprise there was no extra current drawn from the source. my guess is since the motor is attracting to just about top dead center when the field collapses it doesnt affect motor function in fact i know by testing there is a little repel kick on collapse and if tweaked i could probably get it to reduce input while charging the secondary 12V battery.

peace, love, light