Tesla's Stout copper bars "Hairpin Circuit"

[d3x0r]

and then.... *sigh*
found it on a tesla hairpin image search... looks good, except missing capacitors

[Farmhand]

Here is Tesla Patent on the Two stout copper bars arrangement or "Hairpin".

This is resonant transmission line action/theory. A method of and apparatus
for electrical conversion and distribution, nothing more nothing less. With a
working knowledge of resonance and wave propagation it is fairly easy to
understand.

When one side is positive the other side is negative, even when the bars are
shorted to each other, just like with the ground in the globe, a wave will be present and the
difference of potential between the maxima and minima of the wave can be
utilized to force charge to flow at HF. If the bars were made to be many
kilometers long the frequency could be lowered to the resonant frequency
corresponding to the length of the bars. Simple.

With short bars quite high frequencies are required to get the resonance and standing wave.

Patent
Patent US462418 - Nikola tesla - Google Patents

Drawings
http://patentimages.storage.googleap...US462418-0.png

Cheers

[Farmhand]

Tuning capacitor

As can be seen in the second diagram, a tuning capacitor may be used in parallel
with the translating devices/light globes. This would allow the (electrical length)
of the bars to be tuned, in the case that one could not achieve a rapid enough
discharge rate of the supply capacitor to get a standing wave on the bars.

There are no hard and fast rules we just need to do what is necessary to
achieve the objective of the patent/device without introducing too many losses.
With a mechanical spark gap would be difficult to get a rapid enough
discharge rate without tuning the bars. A quenched static gap would be
better in my opinion or solid state.

This is what he says about the condenser on the bars marked "E".

To understand the action of the local condenser E in Fig. 2, let a single discharge be first considered. This discharge has two paths offered-one to the condenser E, the other through the part L of the working c rcuit C. The part L, however, byvirtue of its self-ind notion, ofiers a strong opposition to such a sudden discharge, while the condenser, on the other hand, olters no such opposition. The result is that practically no current passes at first through the branch I, but presumably opposite electricities rush to the condenser-coatings, this storing for the moment electrical ener'gyin the condenser. Time -is gained bythis means, and the condenser then discharges through the branch L, this process being repeated for each discharge occurring at D. The amount of electrical energy stored in the condenser at each; charge is dependent upon the capacity of the com denser and the potential of its plates. it is evident, therefore, that the quicker the discharges succeed each other the smaller for a given output need be the capacity of the .condenser and the greater is also the efiiciency of the condenser. This is confirmed by practical results

Diagrams showing tunign capacitor on the bars.
http://patentimages.storage.googleap...US462418-0.png

Cheers

[steelrat]

Although patent US462418 has similarites to the so-called 'hairpin circuit' (Lecher Line device) it is not what people refer to as Tesla's 'stout copper bars' apparatus, and therefore cannot be said to be the patent for such.

Patent US462418 was, in part, about conversion, whereas the 'stout copper bars' apparatus was used by Tesla to explore impedance.

I suggest, as did Mr Palsness, that anyone wishing to replicate the stout copper bar apparatus do so in accordance with Tesla's build.

Tesla used an AC generator to feed the capacitors, not chopped DC via an ignition coil.


SR.

[soundiceuk]

I'd be very interested to see how the circuit behaves when someone builds a generator wound exactly how Tesla would have and makes the same circuit.

Best regards,

Paul

[Farmhand]

Although patent US462418 has similarites to the so-called 'hairpin circuit' (Lecher Line device) it is not what people refer to as Tesla's 'stout copper bars' apparatus, and therefore cannot be said to be the patent for such.

Patent US462418 was, in part, about conversion, whereas the 'stout copper bars' apparatus was used by Tesla to explore impedance.

I suggest, as did Mr Palsness, that anyone wishing to replicate the stout copper bar apparatus do so in accordance with Tesla's build.

Tesla used an AC generator to feed the capacitors, not chopped DC via an ignition coil.


SR.

Show me the difference. The book https://ia600302.us.archive.org/16/i...00martiala.pdf

Has the same device and it is the stout copper bars. Page 339 and the Text
starts at page 338, the only thing different in the patent is the shorting bar,
and the capacitor and series rather than parallel spark gap, the device in the
book is the experimental device for demonstration I guess and the patent
device is the practical implementation of it. No shoring bar required.

Walks like a duck and talks like a duck so it's a duck.

The two devices on the left are the same as the device in the patent except
for the series spark gaps not parallel. Either AC or DC can be used as a supply
the spark gap will fire and a standing wave will appear when tuned.

I guess the way he arranged it allowed him to get a patent.

Cheers

[steelrat]

Show me the difference. The book https://ia600302.us.archive.org/16/i...00martiala.pdf

You've already pointed out some of the differences yourself, so i find myself surprised that you need someone else to point out the rest, but if you insist ...

The patent you link to is for conversion and distribution, it can have an AC or a DC input, there is no stepping up of the input it goes straight into the caps, this is where the conversion is done.

The Lecher Line device has only AC input, steps up the voltage and is used to examine the reflected wave.

You are saying that because they both have wheels and an engine, that a car is the same as a train.

I suggest that we don't turn this into a war of semantics since i'm sure we can all see what the devices have in common but your original statement :

"Here is Tesla Patent on the Two stout copper bars arrangement or "Hairpin"."

is obviously incorrect.

SR.

[nrg2171]

Capacitor value

hi
i am new to this thread.
this circuit is really fascinating .
is there a formula to find the right cap value or any value will work?

thank you

[vitom001]

Hi all,
I tried to construct a version of the lecher/hairpin/stout-copper-bar circuit however things
do not seem to be working out. I'm using a 2kV MoTransformer, self-made spark gap with tungsten electrodes and for caps i tried both leyden jars with salt water and steel rods
and ceramic doorknob caps rated at 20kV/1000pF. The only effect I get is that when the
spark gap starts working it heats up quite violently so I can't even run it for a long time. The load (filament bulb 60w) doesn't light up at all. I've tried both with/without shorting the rods from the caps. I was thinking that the rods might not be long enough, because i checked all my other connections and they should be fine. Below I have attached a pic of the setup and a short video showing whats happening. Any help is much appreciated. cheers

[bhaas]

Why not try using a Kelvin Water Dripper for your High Voltage???

[blackchisel97]

Hi vitom001,

You should have both bars shorted on top to create a loop. This is similar to a Tesla resonant transformer having only one turn primary and no secondary.
Primary circuit consists of HV source, such as transformer (or ZVS driven flyback without the diodes), spark gap interrupter, and LC circuit - capacitor(s) and one turn primary made from copper bar or tubing.
Right now you have an open circuit since primary isn't looped thus, no resonant LC circuit. It is a good idea to have a variac before HV transformer. Word of caution: MOT can be fatal upon close and personal contact.



NVtronics.org ? View topic - The "Tesla hairpin circuit"

[DavidE]

...Once the mechanisms are understood relative the the natural forces that surround us, you will discover a multitude of paths to objectives of your design. Design objectives that you declare valuable.

Otherwise you can only take YOUR INTERPRETATION of another's recipe and apply it. And in more cases than not, not even that works. Why? Because its not apparent why certain choices for certain devices/configurations were made by the inventor.

So many here claim to be expert Tesla replicators and any chance they get they shove their version of Tesla spew down your throat. I am quite sure nobody here knew Tesla or worked with Tesla... and can prove they understand what he introduced, by taking his fundamentals and apply them accordingly in this age to some innovative end. If you say this is not true, post your innovation for the world to see.


We must escape our pre-occupation with specifics and better develop the foundation understandings that opens new possibilities. Here is such an example.
Example: Use of Capacitors - A CAPACITIVE EFFECT CAN BE PRODUCED WITHOUT THE USE OF A CAPACITOR.

[vitom001]

@blackchisel97 thanks for responding. I tried to run the circuit with both bars shorted together however it seems to make no difference. I used copper wire to short them.
I wanted to get a variac to control input, only thing is around here they are a bit hard to find, but I'll look around and hopefully i'll stumble upon a reasonably priced 2nd hand one. Then I could reduce the distance between the electrodes in the spark gap and run it for a longer time at appropriate power and maybe figure out what the problem is. Could it be that i need to vary the position of the bulb connections or shorting wire on the rods, so to "tune" the circuit in that way?

@DavidE as much as I would like to be able to "apply Tesla's fundamentals in an innovative end" unfortunately my knowledge of electronics is not at that stage, so I guess I'll have to stick to replication and learn as I go along.

[dR-Green]

Could it be that i need to vary the position of the bulb connections or shorting wire on the rods, so to "tune" the circuit in that way?

This illustrates the ultimate problem in the whole field. The information is all there. But apparently none of this fundamental information has made it through to the youtube channels? The authors are too busy covering it up with "radiant energy" when in fact the circuit has nothing whatsoever to do with radiant energy.

The positioning of the bulb is the most fundamental part of the entire experiment. The experiment is designed by Tesla to illustrate positioning through the standing waves that are produced along the copper bars.

Impedance Phenomena
Impedance Phenomena
Impedance Phenomena
Impedance Phenomena

[DavidE]

dr-Green

This illustrates the ultimate problem in the whole field. The information is all there. But apparently none of this fundamental information has made it through to the youtube channels? The authors are too busy covering it up with "radiant energy" when in fact the circuit has nothing whatsoever to do with radiant energy.

As smart as you think you are, please remember that information is connected to distinctions that construes another's perspective interpretation. This is the problem that you Tesla Elites arrogantly jump right over every time. You don't KNOW what Tesla meant because you don't have a way to confirm such detail with him. So you copy a page of his text and offer that as as answers. Ridiculous.

The only other way to get closer to "inventor meaning" is to build things and run experiments which allows a reconstruction of what does what and how. And even this is an imperfect model because most invent their own distinctions along the way that is "meaningful" to them, but not necessarily succinct when considering the original distinction and its intent.

Language, which represent the reality we all live within, naturally evolves as do meanings of distinctions over time. So discerning essence of old established dogma utilizing more modern thinking - is like hitting a ghost with a bullet.

To vitom001:
As to the circuit challenge posed by you let me suggest that you review notes from another inventor that has done work with this kind of circuit configuration - Ernst Lecher.

My own work in this particular field has also shown that you must assemble components that once connected produce foundational effects (i.e. gradient resonance) before the output shows up that you expect.

To summarize, the results possible with this and like circuits are produced by a certain variation of opposing potentials at a resistance point, in a resonant field. When each of these factors are achieved, islands of energetic output result.

What kind of energy? For the moment lets just call this... an energy with a very unique set of properties.