Big Joule Theif

[morpher44]

negative-R -- still confused...

A neon will first conduct in the glow discharge region when there is no visible light and offers a great deal of resistance. Next the excitation of the neon gas produces a rise in conduction due to ionization, this ionization reduces the resistance to conduction of an electric current.
...
Basically the confusion over negative resistance started because of ohms law---"Ohm's law states that the current through a conductor between two points is directly proportional to the potential difference or voltage across the two points". This simplistic rule does not take into account the attributes of what constitutes a "conductor", in a neon bulb the voltage can rise to the threshold voltage at which point voltage drops and current rises as it rapidly conducts, this is not negative resistance it is non-linear conduction. "Negative" refers to a negative condition, the opposite condition to resistance is acceleration, can you have an accelerating resistance? It is like saying left is less right or the ball was falling upward, it is non-sensical. I will apologise in advance for the criticism but this wacky term has been driving me crazy every time I see it, I am not sure why engineers have to make up so many non-sensical terms to explain things which are really quite simple.
Regards
AC

@Allcanadian

Thanks for the explanation ... but I'm still a bit confused by
this phenomenon... You seem to just accept it as if its no big deal.
My understanding is that negative resistance is suppose to be impossible.
It was a highly debated topic among physicists ... or so I understood.
Perhaps it is just a debate about semantics.

HP has announced a break through with memristors --
claiming they will be able to make very small memories now -- or
so they hope.

This seemed like a huge deal ... and yet I find that
NEON ... and other gases have had this property all along ..
and it has been known about for more than 100 years.

So yes its seems that OHMS should be a measurement that
is ONLY positive ... so that we can keep our sanity.
If you measure a circuit ... and end up with a calculation producing
negative resistance ... there is some unaccounted for effect.

Take Mutual Induction & Non-Conservative fields.
If you were unaware that mutual inductive fields were affecting
your circuit in some way, when you measured things ...
and calculated the value of some resistance, you might find
it is negative ... not because you did your math wrong ... but
rather because you failed to account for the energy entering
your system from the outside due to mutual induction.

So lets take a close look at NEON here. It is established
that the curve is non-linear ... and there are parts of that
curve that exhibit a negative resistance like behavior.
But WHY? Is energy entering from the outside when ionization
occurs? Yes we know this occurs due to ionization ... but
do we know WHAT occurs?

That is my question.

[Lidmotor]

Jeanna's Light

@ Jeanna & All
Here is the video of Jeanna's big JT toroid coil in action. I changed things around a little and ran a small 10W gutted CFL on it with one AA. It is a pretty neat little light folks. The circuit diagram that I show in the video has an error on it. She called for a 100pf cap between the base and the negative rail and I just eliminated it. There should be no connection there to the neg. rail. As of this posting the "little light that could" has been running for 14 hours. I turned the brighness way down to a current draw of about 50mA to do it.
This would make an excellent emergency light. One of these in each room of the house and a few AAs would really help. The pleasant light would cheer things up. Kids would get a kick out of it.

YouTube - Jeanna's Light

Lidmotor

[jeanna]

Hi lidmotor,

As it happened...
I was unable to watch your excellent replication video because the lights went out last night!!

So, Thank you for making it so clear and simple for everyone.
I love the way you nested the light inside the toroid. It makes it a very nice package. (Maybe better than a basket! )

I am collecting a small supply of those cfl's.
I used to have the kind that didn't ever burn out, but now more and more they overheat and I collect them.

BTW, I have never had any heat from my circuit at all.
I am wondering if you used the rheostat as a precaution, or if you actually got heat on that transistor?

Thank you again.

AND...
It was my experimental 30 light circuit that lit up my living room during the power outage.
I was very pleased to find that when there were no other lights anywhere, the light from the 30leds in those 5 circuits was enough to light up the room to the point that I could see everything.
It was way more light than just enough to keep me from bumping the furniture, and way way more light than a candle.

[jeanna]

@ Jeanna & All
She called for a 100pf cap between the base and the negative rail and I just eliminated it. There should be no connection there to the neg. rail.
...
Lidmotor

Did I ?
Oh dear.
I have made that mistake since the first joule thief I ever made.
I did not mean to perpetuate it here!

It is the emitter that connects to the neg rail and that is all.

The 100pF cap is actually in parallel with the 90 ohm base resistor.
And that is, of course on its way to one end of the jt bifilar.
On other jt circuits,I do not usually add a cap in this spot, but it often seems to reduce the amps draw, and so it helps a lot when lighting a fluoro light.

[Lidmotor]

All day fun with the new light

@ Jeanna
I worked with the little light most of the day and guess what---it is still running on that one AA (dimmed down & set at 50mA). Amazing. I played with the 10T secondary trying different inductors like you suggested and even ran a second JT off that winding. One of the best things about this setup is that the toroid (at low settings) does not make much noise. There is not much heat generated either-- unless you UP things then you get noise and heat. I may box this up and use it on my boat. It makes a nice table light.
What is your 30 light circuit like? Hum a few bars and I'll try to play it.

Lidmotor

[morpher44]

light shaman

It was my experimental 30 light circuit that lit up my living room during the power outage.
I was very pleased to find that when there were no other lights anywhere, the light from the 30leds in those 5 circuits was enough to light up the room to the point that I could see everything.
It was way more light than just enough to keep me from bumping the furniture, and way way more light than a candle.

You people are "light shaman".

I think this work is really really important.
There will always be storms ... lights will always go out.
What a comfort when one of you "light workers" can bring
in your goofy technology with eyeballs (yes you Lidmotor)
and make all the kids calm down and feel comforted
because the room is lit.

Electronic light, when all the power fails, is like a chain-of-custody
back to the technological world -- which seems to have
darkened and failed with that nagging "single-point-of-failure-grid-mentality"
which we know is a recipe for disaster .. but never seem to do
anything about.

The "light shaman" & "light workers" will save the day since
they have practiced on this forum and perfected their magic.

I encourage those spectators out there to crack open
some basic electronic books, learn how to read a simple
schematic ... and try to make this stuff.
You will be a highly prized "light shaman" during rough times!!!

Good work gang!!!

[jeanna]

@ Jeanna
I worked with the little light most of the day and guess what---it is still running on that one AA (dimmed down & set at 50mA). Amazing. I played with the 10T secondary trying different inductors like you suggested and even ran a second JT off that winding. One of the best things about this setup is that the toroid (at low settings) does not make much noise. There is not much heat generated either-- unless you UP things then you get noise and heat. I may box this up and use it on my boat. It makes a nice table light.


Lidmotor

Cool.
It is interesting that low resistor settings it doesn't make much noise. I have not had lees sound unless it went above my hearing which is higher resistance=higher frequency.. Very cool.
I never got any heat either. I am so grateful to you for making a replication(s).
Yes, I hope you do make it for your boat... then I can make a replication from your ideas!!

What is your 30 light circuit like?

I just got this schematic off the ac from jt thread I started at ou.
This thread documents everything I did.
It is not too long, but I understand wanting to cut to the chase.
So, here is the schematic.

As you saw today, adding inductors (coils) in series is a very easy and effective way to boost the power you are getting from a set of pulses. (not to forget that it allows all the secondaries to work at the same time.)
I would like to know the numbers details of the inductors and caps, and the frequency of the additions you made.
Very little has been done on this since it got buried, and I would like to start seeing/writing some principles for others to be able to draw from.

So, here is the schematic.
I am open to answering questions. (if I can guess the answers, that is.)

I wonder if a new thread just for this would be a good idea? But for now, it is here.

thank you,
jeanna

It is also the subject of the part6 video
jtc video part 6

[morpher44]

Joule-Thief

I am wondering if this thread spelled "Theif" wrong because
Joule-Thief(TM) is a TI trademark.
I was a bit bummed to learn it has been trade marked.

Texas Instruments, Energy harvesting becomes reality with AdaptivEnergy’s wireless, remote solutions based on TI low power technology | Texas Instruments

[Lidmotor]

Fly Back Transformer????

@ Jeanna
Thanks for the info on your multi light circuits. I watched several of your videos and I understand what you are doing. The way that you are running the leds in series reminds me of the SEC circuit only different. That circuit is a finely tuned RF resonance circuit that drives the leds through one wire and an Avenmenko plug.
Anyway---in my internet wanderings this morning I found this:

POWERLABS' High Voltage Solid State Flyback Driver

It looks allot like what we have done here. We may have built a sort of fly back transformer. I have a couple of TV flyback transformers and I may fiddle with those today.

@Morpher
Joule Thief? Joule Theif? You say toomatoe. I say toemahttoo.
I found out about the patent on the name awhile back. I think that this patent idea is slightly outdated. The orient gets ahold of any new idea and has field day with it almost immediately. It ends up in the dollar store in a year or two.

Lidmotor

[morpher44]

Joule Thief Comparison

Joule Thief? Joule Theif? You say toomatoe. I say toemahttoo.

@Lidmotor

I had an idea that you of all people might be in the best
position to give data on -- since you've replicated so many
of these circuits.

A good way for us all to compare these "big joule thief" solutions
would be to have 3 or so metrics:

1. Cost-of-goods -- an estimate of the parts needed to make it.
We can standardize on some currency and people can convert
currencies using online calculators.
If you have a solution that uses hand-made stuff ... all the better
since people can scavenge parts from electronic junk ... making
the solution a bit cheaper for us all.

2. Steady-State-Power estimate: In watts
All we are concerned with is input power to drive the lights.

3. Light brightness: This can be a sort of subjective metric ...
such as what percentage of a 12'x12' room is lit or something.
I don't think we have to get too technical on this one.

I think having metrics for comparison like this will inspire
us to get competitive here.
Jeanna's Light solution looks pretty darn good at this point ... but
that is just the last one in my memory.

We should keeping raising the bar here ... and going for lower and lower
power, cheaper and cheaper COGS ... and brighter and brighter light.

Having it work on a boat on the water is extra credit.

[Mark]

Hello Lidmotor

I love this new replication and just ordered 5 toroid cores. I want to light a circular cfl.

I'm deffinetly going to build one into a full size lamp.

Awesome!

[Lidmotor]

Sitting around the fire

@Morpher44
What you are asking for is something that I have been working on for years and the answer is complicated. Basically it all depends on what kind of light you want.
I watched a TV show last night on the evolution of man and one of the big things mentioned was that we became very social creatures. It is thought that this may have been contributed to by our sitting around the fire at night. It was a chance for everyone to get together, get warm, eat, stare into the light of the fire, and talk.
My experiments with the light projects on the boat were very revealing about what worked and what didn't. My 'Halo Light' became the "fire" that we gathered around at night and relied on. Why? It put out enough light, you could stare at it (warm light), and with solar energy-- it took care of itself.
This last season I bought a commercial fluorescent 4 D cell light that does about the same thing. It has an 18hr. run time and worked very well on the boat. The big difference was that I made the 'Halo Light' and we would talk about it at the table at night.
I wonder if ancient people sat around the fire at night and showed off their new inventions to others. I'll bet that they did. The conversation might have been: "That's a great spear" Yugg says to Bugg. In the back of Yugg's mind he is thinking---" I can make it better." ---as he stared into the fire.

Lidmotor

[Mark]

UMMM Lidmotor you buildum BIG FIRE!

[jeanna]

Hi All.
A big To Jeanna & Lidmotor.I made a few atemps to post a reply on Lidmotor's page no luck.Well anyway I thought everyone's going bigger I think I'll try smaller.so here's what I came up with. Tec

Nice, tec,

OK, now make them in series.

when the leds are in parallel it is very bright and a wonderful solution to making a lot of light, but see if you can make them in series, because that will push you to higher limits.

(Now, I am getting silly. I have been trying to think of a way to use that beamup for some time!)
In my experiments up until a new design last week, I would get about 1 volt per turn on an average small toroid- joule thief secondary; and with these kinds of spikes the voltage doesn't count as high, so I usually figure about 5-7 volts per led.

So, if you are getting more than 20 volts you should be able to light between 3 and 4 leds.

If you get really high voltage spikes like 80v, you will pop all those leds which are arranged in parallel, so be careful. (all of us that are on pirate's joule thief thread at ou have popped multiple leds, so this is just a kind warning.)

Anyway... great going

jeanna

edit add:

@lidmotor et al,
I finally found where wall mart hides the led lights. Or maybe they just began to carry them...
These lights which have regular and candelabra sized bases come in several bulb shape and color.
They are made in usa by lights of america. They use 19 strawhat leds which have a little light diffuser at the top which spreads the light around etc.
The reason I am bringing it up, is that they are made identically but some are warm light and some are cold-bright-white-led color.
The effect on the ambiance of the room is real.
The yellower and surely less brilliant bright are very comfortable and calm to the senses.
j

[Lidmotor]

Jeanna's Light---In a box

@ Jeanna
I was so impressed with the results that I was getting that I put your light in a box today. Now it is in a truely usable form and is more than just an experiment.
Thanks again for sharing. I left the extra winding on the toroid open at a port so that I can continue to play with different ways to use that extra 10 turn coil.

Here is my video of boxed up light:

YouTube - Jeanna's Light --In a box.ASF

Lidmotor