What do I need to know to build a good lead acid battery?

[SeaMonkey]

...
There is a real science about making batteries, so far the best option still for me has been to get good batteries and make them better with de-sulfation charging.

You're a very wise man.

[SeaMonkey]

Why not? I am serious.

Further explanation will remove any doubts.

[uusedman]

Further explanation will remove any doubts.

A normal 12V lead-acid battery has 12 individual cells linked in series, positive to negative and so on. This type of setup works on negative and positive theory of electricity.

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb...4-5BE91850.gif

A Tesla Switch Lead Acid Battery would have 36 individual cells. The first 3 cells will act as the first potential difference as the following setup: (high potential)+ - + - - + (low potential) = emf of 1 V.

Now the great question is this something possible, efficient?

thanks

[Aaron]

alum and distilled water works in a lead acid battery

Sea Monkey,

What makes you believe alum is not water soluble?

Alum IS water soluble and the common food grade additive
alum dissolves in water and penetrates the pickle for
example and strengthens the cell walls - meaning it
makes the cell walls stronger and that is why you get a
* CRUNCH * when you bite one and not a MUSH when
you bite one even though they have soaked and become
softer than a fresh raw cucumber.

In the states, food "manufacturers" are moving away from
alum but it is still used enough that it is common.

Aluminum Sulfate is one of the common types of alum food
additive and there is more than one kind.

Aluminum sulfate (alum) will hydrolyze in a battery and will
create sulfuric acid.

From wiki - the fake encyclopedia but it does have quite a
bit right...

----------------------------

Uses

[edit] Industrial

Alums are useful for a range of industrial processes. They are soluble in water; have an astringent, acid, and sweetish taste; react acid to litmus; and crystallize in regular octahedra. When heated they liquefy; and if the heating is continued, the water of crystallization is driven off, the salt froths and swells, and at last an amorphous powder remains.


----------------------------------


I used a 2 ounce bottle of alum and added that to 1 gallonof distilled water. I poured out all the sulfuric acid electrolyte from a car
battery, added the alum/water mix, and the battery didn't know the

difference. It works as simple as that.


The alum was about $5 USD the distilled water was $1 so the total is
$6 for 1 gallon of electrolyte that works perfectly in a lead acid battery.


That is a HUGE savings over the cost of buying straight sulfuric acid
from the battery stores.



If it wasn't water soluble, it would be worthless in the food additive
industry because it wouldn't penetrate the food.

And if you're charging the battery even with a normal charger and the
temperature increases, it will simply make the alum more water soluble
than it already is. You can always preheat the alum/water mix before
adding to a battery.

[SeaMonkey]

Sea Monkey,

What makes you believe alum is not water soluble?

Alum IS water soluble and the common food grade additive
alum dissolves in water and penetrates the pickle for
example and strengthens the cell walls - meaning it
makes the cell walls stronger and that is why you get a
* CRUNCH * when you bite one and not a MUSH when
you bite one even though they have soaked and become
softer than a fresh raw cucumber.

...

If it wasn't water soluble, it would be worthless in the food additive
industry because it wouldn't penetrate the food.

And if you're charging the battery even with a normal charger and the
temperature increases, it will simply make the alum more water soluble
than it already is. You can always preheat the alum/water mix before
adding to a battery.

Aaron,

You've correctly pointed out the properties of
"Alum" and it is indeed as you've shown us.

The authors of the article, however, incorrectly
refer to the Sodium Aluminosilicate as being the
same as "Alum" or a type of "Alum."

It is the Sodium Aluminosilicate food additive
(it has other uses) which is insoluble in water and
would therefore be useless within a lead acid battery.

Aluminum Sulfate is a useful salt for battery rejuvenation.

Magnesium Sulfate is another.

Sodium Sulfate too.

As are the "hydrogen sulfates" or bi-sulfates.

The key point is that they're all sulfates and therefore
compatible with the lead acid charge/discharge chemistry.

But, no "alkaline" and no Sodium Aluminosilicate - that is
the hoax.

[SeaMonkey]

...
A Tesla Switch Lead Acid Battery would have 36 individual cells. The first 3 cells will act as the first potential difference as the following setup: (high potential)+ - + - - + (low potential) = emf of 1 V.

Now the great question is this something possible, efficient?

thanks

The two banks of batteries in the Brandt Switching
configuration (so-called Tesla Switch) are alternately
charged and discharged in pulses.

At any given instant the current path consists of one
bank of batteries series connected as a source;

the opposing bank parallel connected as a "load"

and the difference in potential appears across the
external "LOAD" through which the current flows.

To make such a configuration into a "battery" it
would be necessary to put all of the pieces together
into a single package.

I suppose it could be done.

If it really "works" then one day it probably will be done.

You may even be the one who gets it done!

[Farmhand]

Building batteries

Thats all very well about the alum, but how does that relate building our own lead acid batteries ?

Anyway, I for one think this could be a very important thread, I have been thinking if it is possible to do this.

The lead plates could be made by pouring molten lead onto or into a mould such as when making fishing sinkers (weights) I do this all the time because sinkers are overpriced and lead is easy to come by, for me anyway.

From what I can tell once one has the lead plates, separators, some way to connect the plates and terminals, a suitable container, some sufuric acid and some method to form the plates one has a battery, how effective that battery is is another matter. For me I would be happy with a battery even if it was twice or three times the size of a commercial battery of equal capacity as long as the battery was not too inefficient to charge and stong enough to allow good power usage.

Of course as with everthing custom made the process of building and phisical construction of the battery would be improved with each one.

Also if the construction allowed for the battery to be dismantled it would be possible to inspect the plates to see what is happening to them or to make modifications.

I am picturing a battery about 600mm x 300mm x 300mm.

Am I missing something here ? Seems to simple

Cheers all
Andrew

[john_g]

Hi.
Currently I am conditioning some dead 200Ah bateries with my Bedini self oscillator. They are getting better and better, but eventualy they reach their best capacity and that is about half or less of the original battery capacity. This is so because the battery plates are in bad condition as the batteries were abused very much. A new 200Ah battery costs about 350-400$, I got these dead ones for nothing. But it takes a long time to get some usable capacity back from them and in the end you get a big (in size) battery bank that has only a fraction of the rated capacity. That is not very practical. So I guess that it could be much cheaper to build some lead acid batteries from scrach. The target size would be some 3000-4000Ah, because I calculated that this is what I would need to power my household needs in a event of blackout. Also I am working on a big wind turbine and a need for such a big storage battery becomes greater and greater. So what do I need to build a good lead acid battery? I can get lead sheets. I can get acid electrolyte mixture. I can build custom casing. But I need some advice.
1. What would the best plate thickness be? How thick are the plates in deep cell marine batteries?
2. How can I calculate the amp hour rating depending on the plate surface area?
3. What would be the best to use as a spacer between plates?

I intend to charge this battery only with Bedini type radiant chargers for the first time on.
Any input would be apreciated
Thank you,
Jetijs

Hi Jetijs

I had the same thought a while ago, see:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...batteries.html

Some useful info there plus a link in there showing JB making his own battery. I still may try this just using solid plates and acid mix - when I get time.

Regards

John

[theremart]

RE: Hoax

Ehh, not so. this is not a Hoax.

I am part of a Yahoo group that uses certain types of Alum ( yes there are different formulas of Alum ) with different levels of success and failure.

batteryconversions : BatteryConversions

A big key to the process is getting the correct Alum formulation, and to use the proper means of getting the battery reconditioned.

There is another thread here that I posted my results of my conversion of the battery and my results. I had only fair results, but there was another person who tried it and got a fully working battery.

My battery gave me about 18 amp hours as I recall, but I did things wrong as I know much better of what not to do.

This process does work, but may require a little research of the method of how to do it right.

Cheers

Unfortunately, that article is a Hoax.

Alum is a mineral double salt containing
Aluminum Sulfate - it is acidic.

The only way to recover a deteriorated Lead Acid
Battery is by means of careful desulfation and a
regimen of charge/discharge cycles.

Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt) can be added to
the electrolyte (Sulfuric Acid) in order to prolong the
life of the battery.

Draining the electrolyte from a battery should only
be done to "flush" the battery of sediment, after
which it should be poured back into the battery.

The article must have been a Halloween Prank or
somesuch...

[SeaMonkey]

Thats all very well about the alum, but how does that relate building our own lead acid batteries ?

Anyway, I for one think this could be a very important thread, I have been thinking if it is possible to do this.

The lead plates could be made by pouring molten lead onto or into a mould such as when making fishing sinkers (weights) I do this all the time because sinkers are overpriced and lead is easy to come by, for me anyway.

From what I can tell once one has the lead plates, separators, some way to connect the plates and terminals, a suitable container, some sufuric acid and some method to form the plates one has a battery, how effective that battery is is another matter. For me I would be happy with a battery even if it was twice or three times the size of a commercial battery of equal capacity as long as the battery was not too inefficient to charge and strong enough to allow good power usage.
...

Am I missing something here ? Seems too simple

Cheers all
Andrew

The "old books" have many plans for making
your own lead acid battery. It is the simplest
battery of all - You're not missing anything!

But, to get batteries with good capacity at
the lowest possible cost go to any battery
shop or recycling center and sort through
the "cores" for those that are still in good
physical condition and do not have any shorted
cells.

Rejuvenate them by desulfation until they're
restored to good health and enjoy. With a
steady regimen of pulse charging a lead acid
battery can last several decades. Learn how
to keep them healthy and in top condition.

Deep Cycle batteries (golf cart, etc.) are the
very best and generally rejuvenate to near
full capacity. Their plate construction is very
rugged.

Automobile batteries are less than ideal but
are abundant and very cheap "pre-owned."

In a pinch one uses what one can find...

[SeaMonkey]

Ehh, not so. this is not a Hoax.

...

A big key to the process is getting the correct Alum formulation, and to use the proper means of getting the battery reconditioned.
...

This process does work, but may require a little research of the method of how to do it right.

Cheers

I fully agree with what you've said above.

Lead acid batteries are quite easy to rejuvenate,
providing they aren't physically damaged, when
one has the knowledge.

The advantage of adding one of the various sulfate
salts to the acid is that it will increase the quantity
of sulfate ion in the electrolyte and thereby minimize
the growth of "whiskers" on the plates by plating action.

When sulfate ion is present in the electrolyte in sufficient
quantity, the lead sulfate on the discharged plates
is prevented from going into solution (dissolving.)

Adding "alum" to a dead battery has the same effect;
increasing the quantity of sulfate ion in the electrolyte
thereby permitting the battery to receive charging
current and rejuvenate.

It's old knowledge and it is effective. Even more-so
today with the very efficient desulfator circuits that are
easily home made.

The myth that is incorrect is: "Alkaline Lead Battery"

[theremart]

RE: Myth..

>>The myth that is incorrect is: "Alkaline Lead Battery"


Your statement seems very reasonable to me. This may explain why the process does not work on brand new batteries. ( at least the results from our group have been very poor for those who tried it ) the guy with the best success is the one who chooses old batteries then adds the alum.

I believe that even Bedini first conditioned his homemade batteries before making the alum switch over in his video.

Ok, I see where you are coming from. I guess to prove your idea one could test the PH of the converted battery, I am betting you are right.

[SeaMonkey]

>>The myth that is incorrect is: "Alkaline Lead Battery"


Your statement seems very reasonable to me. This may explain why the process does not work on brand new batteries. ( at least the results from our group have been very poor for those who tried it ) the guy with the best success is the one who chooses old batteries then adds the alum.

I believe that even Bedini first conditioned his homemade batteries before making the alum switch over in his video.

Ok, I see where you are coming from. I guess to prove your idea one could test the PH of the converted battery, I am betting you are right.

The "alum" remedy goes back to the days when
alum was a very common household food preparation
chemical. It was readily available in stores and very
cheap so it was very often used to bring "life" back
to dead car batteries.

In truth, any soluble sulfate may be used:

Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt)

Ammonium Sulfate (Fertilizer grade may not be pure enough)

Potassium Sulfate

Sodium Sulfate

Sodium Hydrogen Sulfate (bisulfate)

and others.

The most readily available and cheapest nowadays
is Epsom Salt.

Have you heard the one about adding Aspirin to
a dead battery? That's another old trick.

When the battery is "dead" the acid is so weak
that it isn't able to conduct sufficient current
flow to re-charge it. Adding something to the
weak electrolyte to safely make it more conductive
will do the trick.

But of course, if the battery is dead and sulfated
then it will need desulfation with a pulser to get
it back to good health.

The lead acid battery is one of the most amazing
devices ever developed. When treated with care
it will function reliably for many, many years.

[Zeb]

Thats all very well about the alum, but how does that relate building our own lead acid batteries ?

For me I would be happy with a battery even if it was twice or three times the size of a commercial battery of equal capacity as long as the battery was not too inefficient to charge and stong enough to allow good power usage.

Andrew

Hi Everyone,

I agree with Farmhand, particularly with regard to the size/weight of the battery. Here is what I have been researching.

Normal automotive batteries have thin plates, which are not conducive to deep discharge (< 5-10% of rated capacity). Deep discharge requires thicker plates. Automotive batteries are constructed with lot of plate area to be able to sustain a heavy (however of low duration) starting current. Thus the (+) and (-) plates (around 1 - 2 mm thickness each) are placed alternatively with a paper/synthetic fiber seperators between each pair.

One way to get thicker plates would be to make lead plates. However I have been thinking about lumping 2 or 3 (+) and 2 or 3 (-) plates together with a seperator in between. The obvious advantages that I see are:

1. Using off-the-shelf battery plates which are cost effective being manfactured in large numbers.

2. Using an existing plastic (or rubber) battery box. Again cost effective, easily available.

3. Reduction in seperators would allow addition of one plate pair per cell.

4. Can be easily constructed from local (Islamabad Pakistan) battery repair people; a thriving business in a country facing serious power shortages.

The points where I am stuck at the moment are as follows:

1. What would be a good number of plates to lump together to start with. 2 seem a bit low (no basis to say so). 4 maybe too high, with the material on the inner plates being inaccessible and thus inactive.

2. How deeply would we be able to discharge such a battery over the 5-10% of an automotive battery.

Would appreciate any thoughts on this.

Regards

Aurangzeb

[howie]

lead acid battery manual from 1922

Hi Jetijs and all,

there is a comprehensive book about lead acid batteries:

The Automotive Storage Battery - Index

Hope this helps
Howie