Back EMF vs. Collapsing Magnetic Field Spike

[nilrehob]

...so magnetic field of coil + magnetic field of iron core COLLAPSE..

I'm not sure that I follow. Do You mean that the forward EMF generated by the collapse of the field is boosted by the magnet going away?

If you want inductive spikes without any magnets involved, look at Bedini self oscillator circuits or Peters rotary attraction motor.

Now here is a new problem: where do I find a simple as possible but still working schema of a circuit like this? This forum is quite big.
I think a thread dedicated to working schema's with comments (but no discussion at all) would be great. If an error is found or info is to be added to a schema the post is edited rather than a new post is added.

nilrehob - I am almost 100% confident that the passing magnets actually take energy away energy from electrical output and does not add to it.

This is most surprising to me. I must find a way to check this.
Is this contradicting what boguslaw wrote?

The transient spike preceeds the flyback.

How do I generate and detect this? Do You have a osc-scope-shot?

Right, if you zoom into the spike close enough, you will see it is a triangle with some width getting wider towards the bottom. However, there are spikes like this but also true impulses without the current...this is firmly established.

How do I generate and detect this? Or, where can I read about this?

There is a way to have current in the coil AFTER
you remove the input power.

How do I generate and detect this? Or, where can I read about this?

Again, a thread with working schema's accompanied by comments on how to make it work would be must useful, like a patent-repository (but without its restrictions of course), and no discussions. Not only big apparatus but also small parts to show how a specific concept works (like how all kinds of EMF and all kinds of spikes works).
Unfortunately it seems like the forum-software is compressing attached pictures, but that can maybe be changed?

[Sephiroth]

[nilrehob]

Sephiroth, I just took a shot running my converted fan with *very* small coils charging a capacitor.
The scope is over the coil (collector - batteryplus) and I have no "flyback", only the spike.
Volt/square was 20V and time/square was 0.1 ms, as the cap collects energy the spike rise and gets thinner.

I'm unable to test it right now, but I can't remember having anything else than the spike on my big air-core coil either.

Maybe I need to have an iron core to get Your result, just as (I guess) boguslaw is saying?

[boguslaw]

I'm not sure that I follow. Do You mean that the forward EMF generated by the collapse of the field is boosted by the magnet going away?

Yes, but I thought rather about collapsing magnetic field in iron core.And Bedini uses bifilar coils when one winding is pushing magnet away (using energy from power source). The second is in meantime collapsing magnetic field with added field from magnet. At least that's how I understand the energy added to SSG.

[boguslaw]

I think you should see this : YouTube - Radiant Energy From Generator Coil

[nilrehob]

I think you should see this : YouTube - Radiant Energy From Generator Coil

Thanks
About coils: Producing wound components

[nilrehob]

Would a SSG with no wheel, magnets or transistor work with a relay (instead of the transistor) switching in low freq? My guess is it won't, not even if You trim the width of the puls to match the size of the coil.

Just to explain myself: by "work" above, I mean charge a battery more than it drains the driving battery.

[Sephiroth]

that isn't the spike... that is the flyback and appears to be charging a cap at around 70 volts.

the photo is a bit blurry, but it looks like I can just make out the leading edge spike immeadiatly before the flyback.

Sephiroth, I just took a shot running my converted fan with *very* small coils charging a capacitor.
The scope is over the coil (collector - batteryplus) and I have no "flyback", only the spike.
Volt/square was 20V and time/square was 0.1 ms, as the cap collects energy the spike rise and gets thinner.

I'm unable to test it right now, but I can't remember having anything else than the spike on my big air-core coil either.

Maybe I need to have an iron core to get Your result, just as (I guess) boguslaw is saying?

[darkwizard]

Is there any difference between the mystic spike and the flyback spike? aren't they coming from the vacuum?

[nilrehob]

that isn't the spike... that is the flyback and appears to be charging a cap at around 70 volts.

OK, I'll make a video...

the photo is a bit blurry, but it looks like I can just make out the leading edge spike immeadiatly before the flyback.

...meanwhile You look at a manipulated photo

[nilrehob]

Is there any difference between the mystic spike and the flyback spike? aren't they coming from the vacuum?

I'm desperately trying to demystify this, please join in

[darkwizard]

What causes the HV spike whatever it means , flyback or radiant or mystic spike is the heaviside flow component or what is called the A field, this A field creates at light speed when the switch is closed, his flow is parallel to electric current, and this A field returns like radiant energy or flyback voltage, electric energy with high voltage and very poor current, when the switch is open.

Therefore radiant, back emf, or flyback are only names for the same thing, like Jehovah or Yahweh or Elohim or Lucifer are names for the same god.

Perhaps the best name is aetheric voltage.

[BinzerBob]

kinetic energy of moving electrons in wire.

Sorry to throw in maybe a bit of off topic consideration but....

Has anyone calculated the kinetic energy of moving electrons in the bedini coil. Then when the circuit is opened the voltage spike (which I believe is similar to Force in a mechanical system) might be described by the fact that the electrons were moving and had so much kinetic energy behind them. Here the length of wire comes into play because it is like a tube of moving water. In a tube of moving water if you stop the movement very fast you get enormous pressure and forces.

So really is it just this. Can we consider the electrons to be like water moving in a tube? And calculate the energy and related voltages based on Kinetic energies? For electrons in a circuit I believe the velocity is known as Drift Velocity, the mass of electrons would be all those electrons along the wire that are in movement.

Not that I looked at the math but also something to consider ... what about a long wire, can formulas known for calculating inductance of a coil be used to describe electron flow in a straight long wire path but in this case put the radius term to infinity? This might simplify some expressions to Zero.... Just something to look at and consider.

One other thing to consider about a mechanical system ... currently in the natural gas supply system (say in North America) it is impossible to stop the flow of natural gas in the main supply lines. If there is a problem in one line which needs repair the gas flow must always be diverted. It is because the forces needed to stop the gas would be so great.

[nilrehob]

Video is live.
YouTube - Spikes part 1

[darkwizard]

BinzerBob your consideration is right, but, do you know where the electrons are moving? They are moving in the vacuum, inertia is a property of space.

The vacuum is the medium of propagation, in a copper wire, at the atoms there is such empty space where the electrons propagate, jumping between atom and atom, the kinetic energy is related to moment of inertia, and this moment of is inertia is a property of angular motion of a particle and vacuum.