Back EMF vs. Collapsing Magnetic Field Spike

[darkwizard]

In my theory the electrostatic field of the electron generates a polarization in the vacuum (enviroment of the particle) , this create a "kind of static electricity" that discharges when the current is off.

The static is not static at all, it is really dynamic because it can travel along the wires, that is why tesla preferred the word Radiant, because it comes from the irradiation of the electrons and the vacuum polarization. It is a kind of radiation, it is not quiet at all.


Please: I know that the spike is not Static electricity, Static electricity don't exist.

In my theory this has nothing to do with magnetic field, it has to do with magnetic flux or aetheric flux that is produced by the electron movement in the vacuum.

If it is not accepted i don`t care.

[Hoppy]

At first I thought that mentioning spike happen at switch closing is a typo, but after I read coil inductance holding back it is different. Isn't inductive collapse happen on switch opening, when current is disrupted?

Yes, and if a load is not connected at discharge, the current is disrupted and has nowhere to go. So what happens to it? The answer to this is important to understand. The disrupted current causes the voltage to rise and this voltage will find a path to ground even if it means breaking down the transistor collector / emitter junction - 'zapping' it. If a neon lamp is fitted this will absorb the HV feedback unless the power level is too high which can be the case when using multi-strands and transistors. In essence the current is converted to potential / high voltage. The power or ability to do work in terms of energy level level stays the same because even though the current is very small. It is very misleading to assume a high voltage spike is powerless just because the current is very low.

The charging battery absorbs the spike and converts it back to lower current current by reducing the voltage level. This happens almost instantaneously because the battery impedance is low. The instantaneous pulse current on discharge is high and is too fast to be measured on a multimeter accurately. We can only measure an average current at the frequency of coil discharge on the meter. It is this power in the form of high pulse currents that cause the battery to charge until the voltage level equals the charging battery terminal voltage. High voltage or static with next to no current will not charge batteries very effectively, if at all!

Hoppy

[Sephiroth]

I don't really want to get too involved with this debate as most of it is theory as far as us little people are concerned since we do not have the tools to verify our beliefs with such precision. For example, I'm sure very few of us can prove radioactive decay as we neither have radioactive elements, nor the tools to measure the radiation. However, other people do, so some subjects, including the elusive spike, may be seen as just theory to some of us, but to others it is an observation.

There are many theories flying around this thread, but I would like to throw in my interpretation of the nature of the spike.

As I said before, I think both Aaron and nilrehob are correct. This is what happens when the supply voltage has been cut off from a bedini-type circuit.

Once the supply voltage has been removed the field will begin collapsing at an incredible speed. This induces VOLTAGE (and alot of it) in the opposite polarity to the supply voltage. But the electrons can not act as fast as the field is collapsing so the coil is effectively an open circuit. As we know, if no load is attached to the output the voltage sky rockets and this is what happens in the very brief instant after the supply voltage has been removed. THIS is the transient spike. The moment between the removal of the supply voltage and current generation. This moment is so brief that most oscilloscopes won't even pick it up.

Then the electrons finally get kicked out of bed and start moving (current). The current comes after the transient spike and the current that is induced sustains the magnetic field that is inducing it and slows down it's collapse thus reducing its voltage to just above the charging voltage. This current is the flyback that is induced by the collapsing field and this is what nilrehob is seeing on his scope shots. I would say this current could be described as forward emf.

I won't go into the significance or effects of the spike as that is a WHOLE other subject, but if your interested read the first chapter of Secrets of Cold War Technology.

Yet another theory to throw in the pile I guess!

[darkwizard]

Sephiroth your theory is right, you are explaining the results of the collapse.

[Hoppy]

I don't really want to get too involved with this debate as most of it is theory as far as us little people are concerned since we do not have the tools to verify our beliefs with such precision. For example, I'm sure very few of us can prove radioactive decay as we neither have radioactive elements, nor the tools to measure the radiation. However, other people do, so some subjects, including the elusive spike, may be seen as just theory to some of us, but to others it is an observation.

There are many theories flying around this thread, but I would like to throw in my interpretation of the nature of the spike.

As I said before, I think both Aaron and nilrehob are correct. This is what happens when the supply voltage has been cut off from a bedini-type circuit.

Once the supply voltage has been removed the field will begin collapsing at an incredible speed. This induces VOLTAGE (and alot of it) in the opposite polarity to the supply voltage. But the electrons can not act as fast as the field is collapsing so the coil is effectively an open circuit. As we know, if no load is attached to the output the voltage sky rockets and this is what happens in the very brief instant after the supply voltage has been removed. THIS is the transient spike. The moment between the removal of the supply voltage and current generation. This moment is so brief that most oscilloscopes won't even pick it up.

Then the electrons finally get kicked out of bed and start moving (current). The current comes after the transient spike and the current that is induced sustains the magnetic field that is inducing it and slows down it's collapse thus reducing its voltage to just above the charging voltage. This current is the flyback that is induced by the collapsing field and this is what nilrehob is seeing on his scope shots. I would say this current could be described as forward emf.

I won't go into the significance or effects of the spike as that is a WHOLE other subject, but if your interested read the first chapter of Secrets of Cold War Technology.

Yet another theory to throw in the pile I guess!

I agree with this and some of the confusion about the spike comes because there are two spikes. The first when the switch closes which according to Bedini theory compresses the aether and the second at the instant the power coils magnetic field collapses as described in Sephiroth's description above. The field collapse 'sucks-in' the aether according to theory. However, at this stage much energy has already been lost in the system due to reactive switching losses, so a cosiderable amount is necessary to make up for the losses and a lot more to approach unity and beyond!

There is a lot of theory here especially the battery capacity gain from the transmutation of radiant energy from the aether which is extremely hard to prove because of the very non linear nature of batteries under load testing conditions.

Hoppy

[darkwizard]

At the switch closure appears the Heaviside flow , there is not any spike, only if you have a special circuit will see a spike, "for example the bedini sg without a diode it starts to oscillate because of Heaviside flow".... the spike after the switch opens is the result of the heaviside flow that returns into the coil, this heaviside flow is the polarization of fabric of the space/vacuum nothing else.

The spike is electricity, the heaviside flow isn't electricity but it converges to it.

[darkwizard]

Radiant Energy Diatribe


Virtually all insulated cable exhibits some degree of the electret effect, which the wire manufacturers consider undesirable. Treating the coax will increase the electret effect at least 10 times. Treatment cost is negligible. Obviously, the treatment process is the essential piece to receiving enough energy to be useful. Teflon tape can be dangled from a cable and wonderful results can be obtained. In a thunderstorm, using an ordinary 400-foot cable with Teflon tape has produced a continuous arc eight feet long. Essentially, what you have is a type of Van De Graff Generator. I have not witnessed this myself but this appears to be possible because a lightning discharge releases energy that has been estimated to be in the billion watt range.

From Bearden: f you wish to know just how much power exchange is driving the collisions of the electron gas in a copper wire, here is an illustration. In one cubic centimeter of copper wire, the power exchange in and out of the electron gas is some 4 billion billion watts. That's the equivalent of 4 billion large electric power plants, each of 1,000 megawatt capacity. And one cubic centimeter of copper is a lump about the size of the end of our little finger.

Modern Radiant Energy Circuit

This is what Tesla patent was saying.

[Aaron]

forward emf

The collapsing field generates the fwd EMF spike.
Do You say that when the field is gone and you have the spike, the spike should generate a field?
The field in a coil is generated by current, not by voltage, and as the spike has very little current then maybe its too little to generate a field again. Maybe it does, but its hard to detect as it is so small?

At least I think we're in agreement that the spike is not back emf.

Forward emf for sure is the applied power to begin with to charge a coil.

What you are saying is "FORWARD" emf is only forward relative to the collapsing field's perspective if you consider the collapsing field to be the applied power. This is like saying the cart is pushing the horse.

If you want to call the other side coming back forward from that perspective, that appears to be a matter of using vocabulary in a way that it wasn't intended for and will cause confusion for people who will wonder why there are two forward emf's...one when you apply power and another forward emf when it comes back.

The entire application of power being applied to begin with is considered to be in the "forward or front" region. Everything that happens after power is disconnected is considered to be happening in the "reverse or back" region.

You are right though that it is current that causes the magnetic field and not the voltage.

If this is true, then you should be able to charge a coil with 0 or negative voltage and how ever much current you want.

There is also a way to have an almost "real" forward emf in a coil after you take away the power but still...it still has nothing to do with the spike.

[Hoppy]

The coil discharge in current terms maintains the same direction as the applied current to the power coil, so could reasonably be considered to be 'forward' in direction with respect to the applied current. EMF does not have a 'flow' direction. Its the current generated from it that moves in a direction determined by electron flow either from positive potential to negative or negative to positive; both of which are acceptable in EE terms. Applying a direction to EMF is therefore rather misleading.

Hoppy

[boguslaw]

The coil discharge in current terms maintains the same direction as the applied current to the power coil, so could reasonably be considered to be 'forward' in direction with respect to the applied current. EMF does not have a 'flow' direction. Its the current generated from it that moves in a direction determined by electron flow either from positive potential to negative or negative to positive; both of which are acceptable in EE terms. Applying a direction to EMF is therefore rather misleading.

Hoppy

I agree.
So what we have ?

EMF from power source and counter-EMF from coil (sometimes called back-EMF but that name should be avoided) ?
What is left after disconnecting power source ? Radiant spike and then flyback HV ?
Where is here output current ?


Could somebody correct me ?

[Hoppy]

I agree.
So what we have ?

EMF from power source and counter-EMF from coil (sometimes called back-EMF but that name should be avoided) ?
What is left after disconnecting power source ? Radiant spike and then flyback HV ?
Where is here output current ?


Could somebody correct me ?

On disconnecting the power source there is a rapidly decaying current into the load from the collapsing magnetic field. Bedini theory tells us that superimposed on this is the radiant component 'drawn-in' from the aether. This 'mix' of energises charges our batteries. It is neither pure potential or pure current, it is both which produces power to charge the battery.

Hoppy

[lighty]

If this is true, then you should be able to charge a coil with 0 or negative voltage and how ever much current you want.

There is also a way to have an almost "real" forward emf in a coil after you take away the power but still...it still has nothing to do with the spike.

I would disagree with you on both counts.

No, you cannot apply some arbitrary low voltage source since you have to count in the resistance of the coil itself (don't forget the Ohm's law) and at any higher frequency or shorter duration of impulse you will have to count in the impedance of the coil. So, no arbitrary low voltage and infinite current.


As for the spikes, I'm still not convinced that they cannot be treated as forward EMF when you connect coil to any load of some definite impedance. As I previously said, the lower the impedance the more of the spike potential becomes converted into current. So, if the spike is normally converted into current with low impedance load for me it represents a kind of forward EMF. Also, that's the main reason one have to use capacitor as a load in order to achieve any interesting results since it's impedance in regard to spikes rises steeply after a certain voltage level is reached. I think it was in discussion with Lindemann that I mentioned that my measurements showed (which is standard EM theory BTW) that up until the voltage levels of primary voltage source and the voltage in capacitor are equalized you most definitely see conventional current charging of capacitor (we're talking here about 1:1 coil setup) and after that current drops steeply and the charging continues by the way of spikes. The higher the voltage in capacitor, the higher the impedance spikes see and lower the current. This second part of the curve is the only interesting thing in the whole concept and I'm not sure if it's completely linear. If it is, then it supports forward EMF theory, if it's not than we can talk about interesting charging efffect.

[boguslaw]

May I ask where is Earth magnetic field when circular magnetic field around coil wire is set up by current flow ? What is going on with that field when magnetic field of coil collapse ?

Did you considered my theory ?

I'm asking because Tesla said that in nature all simple solutions are duplicated (waves in ether like waves in water for example).
Two permanent magnets repel or attract, I don't see any other effect like overlapping of two magnetic fields ?

If Earth is like a big weak magnet....

[lighty]

I didn't say you were wrong when you said there is an interaction between coil's magnetic field and Earth's field, it's just that Earth's 0.8 Gauss likely have almost no effect on coil fields ranging from 1000> Gauss.

[Aaron]

current and no voltage

Lighty,

Normally, I agree, you can't do 0 or negative volts with current to charge a coil in a conventionally charged closed loop coil. But...

Leedskalnin's "perpetual magnet holder" - this is current with zero voltage. After the current is established (with voltage to begin with), it remains that way - circulating. When it is disconnected, then the field collapses and gives some voltage from the induction...this is cold magnetic current circulating with no back emf at all... current and zero voltage.
Emery Version - Leedskalnin Perpetual Motion Holder - KeelyNet 06/05/03
The magnetic current is circulating at negative resistance with no voltage potential difference in the circuit at all...just like a permanent magnet.

There are other ways to maintain current in a coil after power is disconnected.

There are also other variations that deviate from what is normally expected.