Gray Motor Experiment

[nat1971a]

Hi TV4free

Great to have you on the forum. You have built one awesome motor. You must have spent a huge amount of time building it.

Please advise your amp draw or is the frequency to high for it to be measured properly?

Are you using transistors to run the circuit?

Does it recharge the batteries?

I must admit i am a little confused about your circuit modification where the diode is extended. Can you advise on this please?

Cheers

Nat1971a

[Guest]

Awesome job building that one and an extremely inspiring video for those of us who like to see some "real" power and fireworks!

Anyway, I believe there is sparking everywhere which is kind of awesome looking at but maybe the next step could be to pick up the sparking energy in a better way, with all this firework it seems like a lot of energy is wasted just like Tesla said. Anyway, never mind, great job! Will make all the other guys work even harder.

[tv4free]

No transistors in this circuit.

In the video the motor draws 15 amps. It can vary... It all depends on how fast I want it to turn.

Every revolution the battery receives a total of 9 pulses (6 strong pulses, and 3 small pulses).

The battery recharges in 3 different ways.

The two most important ways are:
1).The energy from the tube going through the coils, into the battery which is huge.
2).The moment the pulse from the tube stops existing, the coils respond with a huge kick, which goes through the #46 into the battery.
3).You can see in the video some sparks on the commutator. That is a small energy portion that goes into the battery as well. This part will be explained later.

Again, look at the modified schematic that I have posted.

[nat1971a]

wow that is a lot of amps.....hmmm

[Aaron]

Welcome tv4free!

Welcome TV4free,

Great looking motor!

When you get a scope on your motor again, if you can post some scope shots of the cap discharging, that would be very useful.

[ren]

Im interested to know what type of capacitors you have used and where you have sourced them. I sourced some large caps specifically designed for HV discharge and they were around the $900 dollar mark for 3kv 3 microfarad. Ouch.

I have yet to look elsewhere. Your bank seems to be matching sets, not just a bunch of microwave caps bundled together in parallel. I think that this is probably going to be one of the biggest deterrent for most people in replicating/experimenting. I have seen the odd bargain on Ebay, but most of them are second hand, from Russia or something.

[tv4free]

What I don't like about my caps are, that they have internal resistance. Mine are 3kv 3uF each cost $3.00 a pop. Purchased them at electronicsurplus.com

[Peter Lindemann]

Excellent Work

tv4free,

I don't really have anything to add right now, except to say that your motor, circuit and work on this is excellent! Your adaptations of the circuit are well thought through and original. Just follow the experimental evidence, wherever it goes.

Don't be discouraged that there are still improvements to make. You are on a clear path. Just solve each problem as it comes up, and be systematic and methodical. You are doing really well.

Best wishes,

Peter

[johnb003]

You could try to make your own core with black sand and epoxy? Peter Lindemann I think knows a thing or two about this. Peter have you tried it?

The inner coils are alternated with the commutator right? So are the outer coils just run as solid dc electromagnets? I wonder if you could replace those with strong permanent magnets.

I'm interested in how you built it.

Doing my own experiments I'm not sure where a good place is to get parts.

For example:
* What are the sheets holding the motor? Did you say they are teflon?
* Where did you get the bearings and the axle for the rotor?
* What about the spaces between the sheets? Are those hollow threaded rods?
* How did you get the cores that fit so nicely together?

Did you have to get anything machined or did you do everything yourself? How much was everything? Did you find anything at local stores or did you mostly order stuff online?

I know these questions don't have much to do with the circuit I'm just trying to do some experiments myself and it's my biggest hurdle at the moment.

[ren]

The inner coils are alternated with the commutator right? So are the outer coils just run as solid dc electromagnets? I wonder if you could replace those with strong permanent magnets.

JohnB, no offense intended, but I dont think you have grasped exactly what is going on here.

The whole point of having Electomagnets on both the stator and rotor is that they can be neutral at all times until activated in a series connection from rotor to stator causing repulsion. You cant do this with a permanent magnet and an electromagnet. The permanent magnet will always be "on". Unless of course you build it like you have suggested and hit your electromagnet with HV pulses. Then your permanent magnet will be off.... permanently.


If you have never constructed a motor of any sorts, be it SG or Adams etc then I think you would be best exploring something a little more simplified, to start with. Everything TV4free shows there is easily built, some parts will need to be machined and balanced, some will be able to be made by hand if so desired. The air gap on TV's cores for example would require machining for such close a tolerance.

Of course, its not worth building the motor unless you can build the power supply for it too. Have you had alot of experience with HV? The caps TV has there WILL store enough charge to stop you DEAD in your tracks given the chance.

IF you have your heart set on building something like this then Im sure you will find the answers, just like I did. There is no reason why you cant build something like this to run on lower voltages to start with. Doug Kozen has one like this I believe.

"Just a side note, I guess if you interrupt a discharge, you're not letting the full potential through so, it's going to take some work to really identify the key characteristics to produce the effect most efficiently." - Johnb003

You stated this on the other thread and it is confusing to say the least. When current is interrupted in an inductor the potential appears. Your interruption will halt the passage of current through the inductor, but it is that interruption that creates the HV potential, or inductive kick. Im still not sure what you mean by interrupt a DISCHARGE however.....

Your comment on Black sand for cores is not without merit however. All in all, try to grasp the nature of the beast, and how it goes about achieving that. Side supports could be teflon, they could also be plywood. Whatever works at this stage, and holds up/is strong enough. I dont mean to discourage hands on experimenting, but perhaps something small scale to start with.

Regards.

[ren]

What I don't like about my caps are, that they have internal resistance. Mine are 3kv 3uF each cost $3.00 a pop. Purchased them at electronicsurplus.com

Wow, cheap as chips. Nice. But they have the internal resistor, much like a microwave cap has integrated so it doesnt hold charge when disconnected. Good from a safety point of view, bad from an efficiency point..... but hey, they obviously work still

[nat1971a]

@tv4free

just wondering if you have tried a thyratron or something similar in your circuit?

[johnb003]

JohnB, no offense intended, but I dont think you have grasped exactly what is going on here.

The whole point of having Electomagnets on both the stator and rotor is that they can be neutral at all times until activated in a series connection from rotor to stator causing repulsion. You cant do this with a permanent magnet and an electromagnet. The permanent magnet will always be "on". Unless of course you build it like you have suggested and hit your electromagnet with HV pulses. Then your permanent magnet will be off.... permanently.

I don't claim to know what's going on, I'm simply asking questions to get a better idea. I didn't know the gray motor used repulsion pulses, I just thought the motor was more standard push and pull with the timing from the commutator.

If you have never constructed a motor of any sorts, be it SG or Adams etc then I think you would be best exploring something a little more simplified, to start with. Everything TV4free shows there is easily built, some parts will need to be machined and balanced, some will be able to be made by hand if so desired. The air gap on TV's cores for example would require machining for such close a tolerance.

The point of asking where he got the materials was more for general knowledge. Getting an idea of how much this particular project costs, and with emphasis on where he got the supplies so I can apply those resources to my own projects. I'm not trying to build a Gray motor right now, but I do think that the gray motor uses some of the very same concepts I am trying to experimentally study and understand.

Of course, its not worth building the motor unless you can build the power supply for it too. Have you had alot of experience with HV? The caps TV has there WILL store enough charge to stop you DEAD in your tracks given the chance.

I haven't made a career out of it, it's just a hobby but, yes I've got some experience:

Here's my HV power supply:
YouTube - High Voltage Power Supply

"Just a side note, I guess if you interrupt a discharge, you're not letting the full potential through so, it's going to take some work to really identify the key characteristics to produce the effect most efficiently." - Johnb003

You stated this on the other thread and it is confusing to say the least. When current is interrupted in an inductor the potential appears. Your interruption will halt the passage of current through the inductor, but it is that interruption that creates the HV potential, or inductive kick. Im still not sure what you mean by interrupt a DISCHARGE however.....

What I'm talking about when discharging a capacitor over a spark gap, you want a very strong but also very sudden impulse. By "disrupting the discharge" I'm talking about trying to force the discharges to be more abrupt and thus more frequent. An example is using a magnetic quench spark gap, or blowing hot air over the gap as Tesla was doing. Some people have tried using compressed air over the spark gap.

Here's a couple videos I just made to show what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWsPwynGP_c
YouTube - Magnetic Quench Spark Gap (Capacitor Discharge)

"When current is interrupted in an inductor the potential appears." -ren
Yes, that's why I'm trying to create more discharges with the same amount of power.

It seems like a lot of the experiments that seem to have energy gains are working with high power uni-directional impulses. So, I'm trying to setup experiments to study the nature of this, and presently that's what I'm focused on in my research, so that's why I keep referring to it.

`John

[Jules Tresor]

Hey John,

Nice videos ! Your setup looks very light and using a FB transformer is even easier/cheaper than a car coil

The spark frequency looks much faster with the magnet !
Now you have to introduce diode(s) to get Aaron's flux compression effect that increases the speed of discharge of the cap and block the discharge to one direction, without possible bouncing.
Thanks for sharing,
good luck,
MDG

Edit: John, what is your cap's specific, the one you put in paralell with the FBT output, and where did you found it ?

[ren]

I don't claim to know what's going on, I'm simply asking questions to get a better idea. I didn't know the gray motor used repulsion pulses, I just thought the motor was more standard push and pull with the timing from the commutator.

Perhaps it could use a push pull configuration. You would have to design it accordingly and this would most likely involve some way of flipping polarity.



The point of asking where he got the materials was more for general knowledge. Getting an idea of how much this particular project costs, and with emphasis on where he got the supplies so I can apply those resources to my own projects. I'm not trying to build a Gray motor right now, but I do think that the gray motor uses some of the very same concepts I am trying to experimentally study and understand.

Fair enough. You may have already read this before but one of the ways one can experiment with these sorts of principles is the Bedini SG. The Gray motor is like a HV monopole in some respects. Gray even used the same term when describing aspects of it. "Splitting the positive".




I haven't made a career out of it, it's just a hobby but, yes I've got some experience:

Here's my HV power supply:
YouTube - High Voltage Power Supply

Good. This is a start. I can see that you at least have a basic grasp of the fundamentals from this.


What I'm talking about when discharging a capacitor over a spark gap, you want a very strong but also very sudden impulse. By "disrupting the discharge" I'm talking about trying to force the discharges to be more abrupt and thus more frequent. An example is using a magnetic quench spark gap, or blowing hot air over the gap as Tesla was doing. Some people have tried using compressed air over the spark gap.

Here's a couple videos I just made to show what I mean:
YouTube - Magnetic Quench Spark Gap
YouTube - Magnetic Quench Spark Gap (Capacitor Discharge)

I see what you mean now. You are referring to quenching the spark gap, in an attempt to increase efficiency. From your original quote I thought you were just referring to interruption in the inductor. Of course the best way to be rid of the spark gap is to remove it altogether. Solidstate or commutator switching. Of course this is easier said than done. Perhaps one could also experiment with an insulator (polyprop or suitable HV resistant plastic?) which was timed off the shaft to break the conduction of the spark gap?

"When current is interrupted in an inductor the potential appears." -ren
Yes, that's why I'm trying to create more discharges with the same amount of power.

It seems like a lot of the experiments that seem to have energy gains are working with high power uni-directional impulses. So, I'm trying to setup experiments to study the nature of this, and presently that's what I'm focused on in my research, so that's why I keep referring to it.

`John

Noted John. Im sorry if you thought I was bagging on you, I assure you I wasnt. Its hard to tell just how much a person knows when they are new here. Having not seen your work or understanding just where you are at can make it confusing.

You are right on the track with the investigation of high power impulses, Even low power ones when configured correctly can give excellent results.



Regards


MDG (STEPHAN) Cap specifics.....a few posts uphttp://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post46303