High Voltage from Thin Air?

[DrStiffler]

@Welcomers - thanks
@Samedsoft - RF questions are best directed to Dr Stiffler
@Dr Stiffler - you are painting a clear picture now

Attached is a photo called LV Coherence (8.1v @ 0.01A) and the circuit diagram as promised.

I commend this design to you and look forward to discussions about what is going on in this circuit.


Jonathan

@Jonathan

By chance have you inserted another mA meter in series with the PSU?

The last video I tried to get on YT (it would never be accepted for public for some reason) showed variations between three PSU's and two secondary meters in series.

81mW is great, without doubt. Maybe stick a carbon 1 ohm in series with the ground lead and look across it with your scope. The waveform should not be to bad and a rough mental integration can be done. I suspect you are seeing a large energy spike back into the PSU (coherence).

Thanks.

[Lattice333]

@Lattice333

**@Dr Stiffler - you are painting a clear picture now**
Because this is somewhat ambiguous, could you clarify the meaning/intent?

Great job, but I have a question, the 4X base diodes, did you find that one did not work for you? Many of us have been using a single diode for some time to correct the reducing Beta problem, I can say I do not see why 2.4 volts should not work, a bit higher than 0.6. So maybe you saw a reduction in coherence with the single one, I need to try this a get some readings.

@Dr Stiffler - I just meant there seems to be much better information available on this forum than in the old days on ou.com (which is great)

The 4X base diodes were based on Spice Analysis on oscillator perormance during rather than their effect on Coherence. 4X may not be necessary.

I have added credit on the LV Coherence circuit diagram attached.


Jonathan

[DrStiffler]

@Dr Stiffler - I just meant there seems to be much better information available on this forum than in the old days on ou.com (which is great)

The 4X base diodes were based on Spice Analysis on oscillator perormance during rather than their effect on Coherence. 4X may not be necessary.

I have added credit on the LV Coherence circuit diagram attached.


Jonathan

@Lattice333
Glad you are using Spice, a great tool to get the basic platform correct. I find the configuration of the LED's very intuitive with the use of L12. If you look back a few pages you will see the SGate design which is electrically similar, although it is totally in phasing and does not need the 1N4148's.

Yet another look says they may aid in stopping the blow out while providing directionality. This is a circuit replicator should build if they are into light.

Again nice job.

[Jules Tresor]

Thank you Lattice for that circuit on LV Coherence.
It looks very strange how all the 40 LEDs and diodes are connected !
Kind of absorbing energy from outside, directing it toward the oscillator ...
The 2 diodes 4148 are not even placed in AV plug configuration, both directed in the same direction !
And you don't have a ground wire, but can make much light out !

Thanks Dr Stiffler for telling us it's the way to go It will save us much time

[Tecstatic]

Not excactly a sgate replication...

This second day with Stiffler technology has given mixed emotions, some has been easy, but most a bit hard to understand. My biggest problem is that I don't know what to expect at this stage.

Among the first alternative energy stuff I have read 18 months ago, was the Panacea D series documents.

Especially I remember the strange beast in D3.pdf described as an idea to try by Dr. Harold Aspden.
I think of the three concentric tubes each capacitor (in my replication it are 3 tubes diameter wise, but actually it is a total of 4 tubes).

My replication consists of a solid 10mm copper rod length 290mm, two slide-able tubes 18mm length 135mm and the outer tube 28,5mm length 280.

Mass for the inner and outer are nealy balanced, while the middle tubes are "lightweight".

The capacitance is nearly balanced between the inner and outer set of capacitors.

If this is critical, A lathe must be employed, no problem if it is worth the effort.

The inner rod is tapped to the outside in the middle. This is intended for high DC voltage at a later stage as sketched by Aspden.

The 18 3mm nylon screws center the rod and the two middle tubes.

This has to be tested a lot.

So far I have connected the collector to one slid-able tube at one end and the L3 to ground and the other slide-able middle tube.

The output was hot at first try, not enough for a CFL, but the neo was nicely lit.
Piece of cake I thought, now I just need to adjust a bit. How naive.

After 2 hours of tuning and coil exchanging I obtained a beautiful 800V peak-peak sinus on the output tube.
This beast is quite broad banded, I think it would be better if it was narrow banded with a high Q value. Maybe both the masses and the capacitance value must be precisely matched to obtain the high Q.

The 800V pp is enough to light half a 4 foot CFL, or almost a 3 foot CFL or a small 8W CFL brightly.

I was kind of disappointed, because I expected more. But at least with the 3 foot lighted with 1,4W the consumption dropped to 0,8W when I added the small 8W CFL.

Likewise with the 30 LEDS on two plugs I got with another tuning nice brightness (not blinding), 1100 lumen measured direcly upon one 15 LED group at 6,8V@ 17mA. When I added the second group the consumption dropped to 15mA.

Again I hoped for more, but I can not state I know what to expect from this. I think it might be time consuming to get to know this beast.

Is the input filter critical in construction to get better coherence. I have used 6 ferrites, and 120uF low impedance electrolyte, 10uF poly, 100nF and 10nF ceramic multilayer in the ladder the least values near the transistor. Maybe this is a mistake.

I wonder if this fully employed with high voltage DC is kind of another incarnation of the Grey tube, just triggered in another fashion.

Is this way out, or does it make some sense ?

I have appended a picture of the home brewed Aspden-Stiffler "sgate", a picture is worth a thousand words...
One of the slide-able tubes has been removed so the inner massive rod can be seen.

Eric

[Jules Tresor]

attempt on Lattice333 LV Coherence

Hello Lattice333,
I tried to replicate your circuit LV Coherence.
I used the wall transformer at 8.6V (I have not yet made a filter)
It takes 10mA as for you. I can light the 40 LEDs, but they are quite dim.
Results are same with a MPSA06 or the 2222.
If I disconnect half of the LEDs, I get them brighter but amperes go up to 20mA. If I add a ground wire to the 20 LEDs I can bring the amperes up to 40mA and get much better brightness.

Can you give me your opinion please.
I know I don't have filter on the supply, and my coils are not high precision ones because I don't have Henry meter (but they are 20 turns each).
Thanks for sharing ,
MDG

[samedsoft]

This post is removed by Nuri

[Jules Tresor]

LV Coherence investigation

I tried more testing at 8.6Volts.
With 20 mA I could light a 6W Fluorescent Tube, plus the neon bulb very dim.
(I finally made a kind of filter with some ferrite beads and caps)

On the right of the picture is one of my attempts to get very bright LEDs like in Dr Stiffler video YouTube - Building Blocks #2

It's one AV plug per LED (can see on the video Dr is not using 4148 type), all Av plugs connected to a mass (the vertical copper pipe in the video), and on the other side, all the LEDs connected to the ground wire ...

Dr Stiffler says in that video "can you see how extremely bright are the LEDs".
I look for that effect, but without success for now, my 7 LEDs are just barely lit. I tried some pipe as 'emitter' connected to the SEC but without big success.

I think from the start I have wrong things in my circuit, and that's why I can't light a neon bulb on its 2 electrodes for example. At best I can get one leg very bright, but that's all, whatever the voltage, the coil, etc ... I'm missing something ! (MPSA06 giving same low results as 2222)
Thanks if you can help me a bit ,
MDG

[DrStiffler]

Dear Doctor,

As you know, I am working on wireless power transmission as of my thesis work and I would like to as you and public below questions,

1. How is the spatial and or temporal coherence affects efficiency?

2. How do we calculate near field in meters for an UWB radiator?

3. What is the TEM, TE, TM, LEM, LE, LM values in the near field? Should we work on increasing LEM value?

4. Have you ever tested in a anechoic chamber for radiation quantity and pattern anaysis..

5. How does medium effects coherence? (Air, Salty water, H2, or whatever is best?)

Those are questions to find parameters effecting the efficiency in my brain..

Take care, Nuri..

@Nuri

Some time back if you remember in private communications I advised you against trying to include anything from SEC into you Thesis because nothing at this time is published. Unless you are going to do the work yourself and I were to vote on your approval I would consider SEC to be hearsay and mis-guided conjecture.

Secondly the coverage of the information available that you ask about is of course presented in mathematics which would not aid the replicators on this thread.

Now having said that, I will provide some information that should help you in the concept and may indeed brighten a flew light bulbs for this group of dedicated replicators.

Wave patterns, near field and far field measurements. Sadly I do not have access to NASA quality research facilities, so only very little study has been done here. I did indeed use a turn table to determine if the field around an exciter was directional or uniform. The answer is (both). I did determine that there is indeed (expected directional radiation) detected in the far field and the expected power density decrease with the inverse square of the distance. What was not expected was that the near field could be very low yet the coherence could be very high or the highest. In addition if attempts to capture energy from the loops of radiation were made, (all was conventional) in fact if you design for traditional RF you receive traditional RF.

So having said this, yes we can examine and see a text book example of and oscillator and a somewhat predictable radiation pattern. But! this is not what is producing the coherence although it is indeed part of the stimulus and overall process. There is indeed a large longitudinal wave component and it is at first difficult to exclude this as being a prime contributor. Again, the design of a SEC Exciter is a stimulator and not a receiver and there is nothing directly included in the circuits to capture and process longitudinal energy.

There are three parts to a SEC Exciter, RF (conventional), Longitudinal, (conventional) and Spatial (unconventional). SEC is Spatial in that it can stimulate the 'Energy Lattice' (the foundation of everything) and cause an increased localized activity which results in energy being cohered into the exciter (at all points) and certain types of mass.

The secret to SEC is to funnel this cohered energy into a localized load on the exciter (we do not want uniform or marginal localized spots as it tends to average out and no return is seen. What does mass have to do with it?

So in short what you ask for really is up to you in the wireless part of your paper and avoid SEC if you want the degree. You have to focus out of the box and if I were in the chair, I would reject your paper unless you could substantiate.

[DrStiffler]

I tried more testing at 8.6Volts.
With 20 mA I could light a 6W Fluorescent Tube, plus the neon bulb very dim.
(I finally made a kind of filter with some ferrite beads and caps)

On the right of the picture is one of my attempts to get very bright LEDs like in Dr Stiffler video YouTube - Building Blocks #2

It's one AV plug per LED (can see on the video Dr is not using 4148 type), all Av plugs connected to a mass (the vertical copper pipe in the video), and on the other side, all the LEDs connected to the ground wire ...

Dr Stiffler says in that video "can you see how extremely bright are the LEDs".
I look for that effect, but without success for now, my 7 LEDs are just barely lit. I tried some pipe as 'emitter' connected to the SEC but without big success.

I think from the start I have wrong things in my circuit, and that's why I can't light a neon bulb on its 2 electrodes for example. At best I can get one leg very bright, but that's all, whatever the voltage, the coil, etc ... I'm missing something ! (MPSA06 giving same low results as 2222)
Thanks if you can help me a bit ,
MDG

@stephenafreter
I have over time been ridiculed for making this statement and surely it will haunt me again.

'Unless you have or have access to a minimal amount of test equipment you will spin your wheels and suffer much frustration. At the minimum you need two medium or above quality DVM's (these $12 devices don't work). Next you need a good LCR, one that will read down to below 1uH with an accuracy of no less than 0.5% at a test frequency >500kHz, the higher the better. A good PSU, digital readout is fine but you must use care and proper filters or the reading will be totally inaccurate. The PSU with filters can be somewhat remote of the unit under test and the farther the better.

Coils can not just be thrown together with hope of having a correct circuit. Look back at 'Lidmotors' videos and see how he progressed. Coils and coil positions are critical as is the requirement of the MPSA06.

After all this time working with public replications I no longer ave sympathy for failures when using other than the 06.

[DrStiffler]

This second day with Stiffler technology has given mixed emotions, some has been easy, but most a bit hard to understand. My biggest problem is that I don't know what to expect at this stage.

Among the first alternative energy stuff I have read 18 months ago, was the Panacea D series documents.

Especially I remember the strange beast in D3.pdf described as an idea to try by Dr. Harold Aspden.
I think of the three concentric tubes each capacitor (in my replication it are 3 tubes diameter wise, but actually it is a total of 4 tubes).

My replication consists of a solid 10mm copper rod length 290mm, two slide-able tubes 18mm length 135mm and the outer tube 28,5mm length 280.

Mass for the inner and outer are nealy balanced, while the middle tubes are "lightweight".

The capacitance is nearly balanced between the inner and outer set of capacitors.

If this is critical, A lathe must be employed, no problem if it is worth the effort.

The inner rod is tapped to the outside in the middle. This is intended for high DC voltage at a later stage as sketched by Aspden.

The 18 3mm nylon screws center the rod and the two middle tubes.

This has to be tested a lot.

So far I have connected the collector to one slid-able tube at one end and the L3 to ground and the other slide-able middle tube.

The output was hot at first try, not enough for a CFL, but the neo was nicely lit.
Piece of cake I thought, now I just need to adjust a bit. How naive.

After 2 hours of tuning and coil exchanging I obtained a beautiful 800V peak-peak sinus on the output tube.
This beast is quite broad banded, I think it would be better if it was narrow banded with a high Q value. Maybe both the masses and the capacitance value must be precisely matched to obtain the high Q.

The 800V pp is enough to light half a 4 foot CFL, or almost a 3 foot CFL or a small 8W CFL brightly.

I was kind of disappointed, because I expected more. But at least with the 3 foot lighted with 1,4W the consumption dropped to 0,8W when I added the small 8W CFL.

Likewise with the 30 LEDS on two plugs I got with another tuning nice brightness (not blinding), 1100 lumen measured direcly upon one 15 LED group at 6,8V@ 17mA. When I added the second group the consumption dropped to 15mA.

Again I hoped for more, but I can not state I know what to expect from this. I think it might be time consuming to get to know this beast.

Is the input filter critical in construction to get better coherence. I have used 6 ferrites, and 120uF low impedance electrolyte, 10uF poly, 100nF and 10nF ceramic multilayer in the ladder the least values near the transistor. Maybe this is a mistake.

I wonder if this fully employed with high voltage DC is kind of another incarnation of the Grey tube, just triggered in another fashion.

Is this way out, or does it make some sense ?

I have appended a picture of the home brewed Aspden-Stiffler "sgate", a picture is worth a thousand words...
One of the slide-able tubes has been removed so the inner massive rod can be seen.

Eric

@Eric
**Especially I remember the strange beast in D3.pdf described as an idea to try by Dr. Harold Aspden.**

If this D3.pdf is something I made public I don't remember it and this is a problem in offering information in multiple places.

What id D3.pdf? If you search on the dual capacitor subject by Dr. Aspden you may still find in remote stores the fact that after releasing his first lecture he refuted the findings and stated it flat out did not work. Later that denial appeared to have been retracted and a modified design was presented. This last design was stated to work (not clear if theoretical or actual) but was stated to be impractical due to the very high voltages required to induce the effect.

In work with the SEC Exciters we went through what was called the VLT (very large tube) coupling from the collector to the output inductor by having the inductor insulated and internal to the VLT. The VLT was single ended as was the output inductor. The was often called as capacity coupling from the arm chair crowd, yet they dropped that when the affect could not be seem of just capacity were used in place of the VLT. (There was really no way to simulate this by a capacitor alone).

Now have said this there was question as to how close to or similar the coupling was to what Dr. Aspden was doing and this was never resolved in the public forum. Now from the VLT came the SGate and the SGate is shown in this thread in two different configuration, the last of which is the preferred and most advantageous. I think one might say the idea of Dr. Aspden and where he felt his energy came from and my Theory of SEC is most likely the same, although were talk and massage the approach in different ways.

A VLT is not a VLT if it is just two cylinders as in your picture, I guess I would have to agree it is more of an adjustable capacitor and should work, although marginal and no coherence.

So if you want to cut your pipe to match the last shown SGate, you should see much better results. Let me know how I can be of additional help.

[Jules Tresor]

LV Coherence ?

Hello,
I went using a small 9V battery, and at 25mA I can light a 6W fluorescent tube. see picture below. 7.71V x 0.025A = 0.19W (190mW) input for that 6W Tube

I had to decrease my L2. I found that connecting the other end of the tube to the base of the transistor increases light and decrease consumption. THe closer the tube from the coil L3, the lower the consumption.

@Dr Stiffler:
Hello Dr., I don't consider having failure with this replication. I get already a lot of light with little input power. I have not yet made a nice SGate, so I know that the potential is in front of me.

I was just asking for suggestion to improve my replications. Of course I have no equipment, but I do my best.

Now that you said that I can't get success without using a MPSA06, I'm going to leave the 2222 and use an On-semi MPSA06. (but so far I didn't found any difference; I don't say that as a provocation but just because it's what I saw so far).

I was wondering what was the secrets, if there is any, (like the diodes model) on your video 'Building blocks 2" to get so much brightness ?

Thank you very much Dr Stiffler for sharing your discoveries with the public. It's a nice and exciting adventure to try to follow that.
God blessings,

MDG

[Tecstatic]

Time for thoughts...

@Tecstatic
Very good! I must give you an 8 out of 10. Keep it up and the answer appears near from a number of people.

Thank you for your kind words, maybe I earned it for the exciter circuit, learning the basics from that. But...

@Tecstatic
A properly working SGate is a fantastic interface to the 'Energy Lattice'. Note I say properly working. As with the first replications of the Exciters done by many on ou.com it can be a crap shoot at first. Once you get the feel for what is taking place, it all lines up like a bunch of ducklings.

Thanks for your efforts.

You are right more than I like, although I have gained a little more experience and seen some effects, I have made a crap shot. My approach lead me nowhere considering your advice in the quote :-(

@mlurye
Your results are amazing !

Although RF circuits is not were I have most experience, I have seen the importance of the practical layout. This can not precisely be seen from a diagram, I will be thankful if you will post a picture of your circuit.

I wonder the purpose of the parallel coils, is the purpose a higher Q or is it because of some interaction between the coils ?

@all
Would it be an Idea if we got to a point developing a spice model generally agreed upon so we can model the circuit and get a better understanding, I have respect for complicated resonance circuits. It would be nice to know what to expect, it would make it more easy to pinpoint problems in the circuit.

I have not simulated lately as I mostly make programs and and digital circuits,but after a new install of a Linux computer I could install one of the free spice alike programs and try to make a model.

Would this be considered helpful to the forum ?

Eric

@All

I am doing this as a separate post so it does not get lost in some single reply.

1) The 1M ohm base resistor in a 15-3 Exciter design. This resistor can indeed be removed when the exciter is in a correct mode, yet I stated this as more of an example on the part the transistor is playing, rather than a design option. The transistor should be in the circuit at all times to reduce confusion. As you tune the exciter, impedance's change and the transistor is an active part of the process, therefore you could drop out of oscillation if the resistor is not present. The resistor serves to allow the process to start and to continue during experimentation and tuning. You can use the disconnect to insure you have found a fairly stable and working mode. Foremost remember the transistor is the pump to the rest of the circuit and as such dynamic changes affecting the transistor (current, voltage and loading) are reflected into and back from the other components.

2) The issue of the coils and capacitors, (base cap and coil and collector cap and coil). These components form a complex marriage of series and parallel resonance circuits. Not only the inductance of the coils, but the inner winding capacities have a great affect on a properly working circuit. You are trying to interface into a high impedance 'Energy Lattice' swamping the circuit with capacity (other than specific parasitic configurations) will remove all possibility of seeing coherence.

Please do a couple of very simple math calculations, you need to do this to get a better handle on what is taking place. Calculate the resonant frequency of the base cap and coil, then calc the collector cap and coil. You will see that the result is HF, not VHF or UHF. So what you are doing is operating into and from high impedance's (this is why the Exciter is so sensitive to external capacity like the human body). You do not have a traditional Bell curve here, you should have and almost linear increase in impedance as the frequency increases.

3) Various tuning peaks and valleys. Depending on the coil in the base and the slug (tuning method) and the overall range of tuning as well as the Q (look this up) you can see actually two fundamentals at each voltage setting for the input supply. Voltage (does) affect tuning. Now each of the tuning settings then will of course change as voltage changes, so where you are tuned at 10V will be different when you are at 12V. Now if your coil and cap have a wide tuning range and a low Q you may have a hard time seeing a decent peak. On the other hand a wide tuning range and a high Q will allow the tuning of fundamentals and harmonics, there by presenting many so called peaks, of which again only one is correct.

4) What happens when you begin to cohere energy? Well a number of things and I will list a few here. Burn out the transistor, the returned HV exceeds the limits of the transistor. Burn out the transistor due to Heat, the output voltage is low (maybe will not light FL's) but the current goes way up. The transistor appears to be drawing <100mA ~50mA but its temperature appears at or below ambient (yes I stand behind this).

Local electronics go wild and many can be destroyed. Clocks and Watches, period timers etc that are driven by electronic oscillators will become inaccurate if not destroyed. This field can extend up to 30 meters on a 15-3 running 1.8W assumed input.

The HV from the output goes from the hot RF burn to one that can not be felt, even though a small arc can be seen to moist skin surfaces.

There may be an increase in input energy from the PSU as the cohered energy is out of balance (phase) thereby tricking the PSU into thinking it must supply additional energy. The PSU will go down in current and could actually read (zero) input current. This is the best spot of all, all conditions are correct and the circuit is in perfect balance, the PSU is only supplying access to the lattice and the load is totally being powered by the cohered energy.

5) Can the Exciter self power (close the loop so to speak). Not directly. The exciter must be isolated by three stages, all of which are single wire or wireless and properly phased. This is a very unstable condition and very hard to come by, so please do not focus here, focus on obtaining excess energy through coherence. Don't become selfish. If we can get everyone to say 30% or 70% excess you all could tell the utilities to whistle in the wind, right?

Have to go, work call, will check back tonight.

[mlurye]

Eric,
A picture of a circuit I built with parts were used is here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post53048.
I used 2 coils because I was lazy to make new ones and tried to use what I had.

[DrStiffler]

Hello,
I went using a small 9V battery, and at 25mA I can light a 6W fluorescent tube. see picture below. 7.71V x 0.025A = 0.19W (190mW) input for that 6W Tube

I had to decrease my L2. I found that connecting the other end of the tube to the base of the transistor increases light and decrease consumption. THe closer the tube from the coil L3, the lower the consumption.

@Dr Stiffler:
Hello Dr., I don't consider having failure with this replication. I get already a lot of light with little input power. I have not yet made a nice SGate, so I know that the potential is in front of me.

I was just asking for suggestion to improve my replications. Of course I have no equipment, but I do my best.

Now that you said that I can't get success without using a MPSA06, I'm going to leave the 2222 and use an On-semi MPSA06. (but so far I didn't found any difference; I don't say that as a provocation but just because it's what I saw so far).

I was wondering what was the secrets, if there is any, (like the diodes model) on your video 'Building blocks 2" to get so much brightness ?

Thank you very much Dr Stiffler for sharing your discoveries with the public. It's a nice and exciting adventure to try to follow that.
God blessings,

MDG

@stephenafreter
Great job and please do not take me wrong on the test equipment issue. I am selfish in that I want all replicators to succeed and many have not for many reasons. The cost and frustration is not good for anyone to go through.

Anyway good work, you now know that you are not properly tuned yet (shown by better success with changed coil). Do you see the similarity of what you have done with the circuit presented by Lattice333? As you zone in on correct tuning you will not be required to have the FL next to the coil.

Yes there are specific reasons for the MPSA06, yet it is a very cheap transistor easy to obtain and will work as advertised (almost always). In short the reason is geometry, internal junction capacities and carrier tunneling all of which need not be a concern here.