High Voltage from Thin Air?

[Tecstatic]

@Tecstatic

No the SGate paper is not removed it has just taken a different position in the chain, its kind of get the simple stuff out first and not hold people back.

So what coils are you talking about? I like my very first method of numbering coils from left to right and starting at the base coil L1, collector coil L3 and primary load or output coil L3 and on the SGate the actual output coil is L4.
How there was a document released I had help on (last time for that) and the coils took on a different assignment like Lb for L1 etc., I wish this would go away.

Yes I have dimensions and specs for all coils but I do my calculations in Mathmatica or a simple spread sheet where I have placed all formulations, I have nothing exclusively for coils. Coils are a fun thing in RF, inner winding capacity, skin effect, dielectric of the insulation, diameter, length, wire size, mutual inductance, dielectric of form and many more factors. Don't be upset with trying, but I need to know which coil and I can send you some specs.

Thank you for offering help.

I agree it is no good with the renaming of L1 to Lb, especially when the remaining coil numbers are also changed. To avoid confusion this ought to be corrected or removed.

You write: "collector coil L3", I guess you mean L2 ?

So
L1 is the coil related to the base of the transistor
L2 is the coil between collector and the positive supply.
L3 goes to the AV plug

In the SGate case:
L3 is between the two outer tubes
L4 is beween the middle of the inner tube and AV the plug.

My frustrations are about RF coils in general, as two coils with the same inductance measured with a LC meter, but different geometries does perform the same.

So to repeat myself, I'm in serious lack of experience with RF coils. I guess I have to make a lot more different coils to get the touch of it.

As this is very time consuming the specs of your coils could be a great help to gain more understanding as I guess you have selected the best compromise .

I have had both the basic SEC and the SGate running with relatively decent results, but this is too much trial and error for my taste. Thats why I want a collection of coils to learn more, knowing that many will be for no use when the experiment is over.

My new Sgate is:
inner tube 15mm diameter 130mm long, capacitance 15pF

As somebody stated (free from memory)

Time is a great teacher, but eventually the cost is ultimate.

I found this calculator on the web. With this it is possible to get an idea of the coil specs.
I have now the formula in my spreadsheet and extended a bit for wire length and DC resistance.

Martin E. Meserve - K7MEM - Single Layer Air Core Inductor Design

Eric

[DrStiffler]

Thank you for offering help.

I agree it is no good with the renaming of L1 to Lb, especially when the remaining coil numbers are also changed. To avoid confusion this ought to be corrected or removed.

You write: "collector coil L3", I guess you mean L2 ?

So
L1 is the coil related to the base of the transistor
L2 is the coil between collector and the positive supply.
L3 goes to the AV plug

In the SGate case:
L3 is between the two outer tubes
L4 is beween the middle of the inner tube and AV the plug.

My frustrations are about RF coils in general, as two coils with the same inductance measured with a LC meter, but different geometries does perform the same.

So to repeat myself, I'm in serious lack of experience with RF coils. I guess I have to make a lot more different coils to get the touch of it.

As this is very time consuming the specs of your coils could be a great help to gain more understanding as I guess you have selected the best compromise .

I have had both the basic SEC and the SGate running with relatively decent results, but this is too much trial and error for my taste. Thats why I want a collection of coils to learn more, knowing that many will be for no use when the experiment is over.

My new Sgate is:
inner tube 15mm diameter 130mm long, capacitance 15pF

As somebody stated (free from memory)

Time is a great teacher, but eventually the cost is ultimate.

I found this calculator on the web. With this it is possible to get an idea of the coil specs.
I have now the formula in my spreadsheet and extended a bit for wire length and DC resistance.

Martin E. Meserve - K7MEM - Single Layer Air Core Inductor Design

Eric

@Eric

***
So
L1 is the coil related to the base of the transistor
L2 is the coil between collector and the positive supply.
L3 goes to the AV plug

In the SGate case:
L3 is between the two outer tubes
L4 is beween the middle of the inner tube and AV the plug.
***
Yes this is correct.

I am sorry for the time you are spending, the last time I responded to something like this I guess I hurt someones feelings because all hell let free. Anyway I think you will understand my next comment and not be offended; "This is the World of Pure Research" and the most exciting and rewarding part of science as I know it. You must understand I am retired (ha!) and have all the time in the world (haha!) so I can spend hour upon hour doing the empirical work where someone that is doing this as a sideline or hobby can not.

Anyway I still fail in my prion ridden mind understanding the problem with the coils. There is an old file with some new updates that may answer some of the questions and it is at;
www.stifflerscientific.com/coils.htm

Let me know if I can help any further, like maybe ask me two times before it sinks in........

Did you all know that Yeast was high in Prions?, hummm, so you eat Bread or drink beer and the mind gets wasted, well a good Gin is indeed safe.

[amigo]

Hi Tecstatic,

I had the same problem with L3 and following Doc's instructions was difficult as the AWG of wire was not correctly stated on the coils page.

Through trial and error I found that based on the original instructions for L3, the wire should be AWG 24, while the inner diameter was 15mm and the coil length was 36mm.

Also, try these links for coil calculators:

Pronine Electronics Design - Single-Layer Air Coil Calculator

Pronine Electronics Design - Multilayer Air Core Inductor Calculator

[DrStiffler]

Hi Tecstatic,

I had the same problem with L3 and following Doc's instructions was difficult as the AWG of wire was not correctly stated on the coils page.

Through trial and error I found that based on the original instructions for L3, the wire should be AWG 24, while the inner diameter was 15mm and the coil length was 36mm.

Also, try these links for coil calculators:

Pronine Electronics Design - Single-Layer Air Coil Calculator

Pronine Electronics Design - Multilayer Air Core Inductor Calculator

@amigo

I know we went through this a while back via PM, yet I just received 5K feet of new wire and wish to see how it differs fron what you are using?

The new wire is labeled #26 Gauge Magnet Wire and has a OD of 0.68mm. Do you have a digital or manual caliper in which you can check the size of the #24 gauge wire you have used? I would be very interest in what is really happening here, like is my supplier giving me the Bum?

[amigo]

@amigo

I know we went through this a while back via PM, yet I just received 5K feet of new wire and wish to see how it differs fron what you are using?

The new wire is labeled #26 Gauge Magnet Wire and has a OD of 0.68mm. Do you have a digital or manual caliper in which you can check the size of the #24 gauge wire you have used? I would be very interest in what is really happening here, like is my supplier giving me the Bum?

Hi Doc,

My digital caliper says 0.54-0.55mm (including enamel) for the wire on the original L3 coil (ID 15mm, length 36mm) and that is #24 as far as I know (it says it on my spool).

These are my measurements for the L3 coil value of ~24uH (23.5uH) and ID 15mm:

With #24 coil length is 36mm and has 65 turns.

With #26 coil length is 22mm and has 50 turns.

Your 0.68mm is more closer to #22 and not #26, as per: AWG to Square mm Wire Size Converter - Storage

Hope this helps.

[DrStiffler]

Hi Doc,

My digital caliper says 0.54-0.55mm (including enamel) for the wire on the original L3 coil (ID 15mm, length 36mm) and that is #24 as far as I know (it says it on my spool).

These are my measurements for the L3 coil value of ~24uH (23.5uH) and ID 15mm:

With #24 coil length is 36mm and has 65 turns.

With #26 coil length is 22mm and has 50 turns.

Your 0.68mm is more closer to #22 and not #26, as per: AWG to Square mm Wire Size Converter - Storage

Hope this helps.

@amigo

Okay, you have me going again. I went down the hall an obtained a different caliber. The wire measured 0.56-0.57 with the enamel coating. I etched off the coating and measured 0.51 which indeed falls at #24 and to double check I am going to count the turns per mm an settle this once and for all. It looks like the original assumption is correct and I have an issue with my supplier, what is faith anyway?, just a hope, a dream?

I'll get back when I get one of the original coils and count turns.

*Well it turns out I do indeed have both. I have changed the old coils page to reflect #24 and not the #26.

[Tecstatic]

Hi Tecstatic,

I had the same problem with L3 and following Doc's instructions was difficult as the AWG of wire was not correctly stated on the coils page.

Through trial and error I found that based on the original instructions for L3, the wire should be AWG 24, while the inner diameter was 15mm and the coil length was 36mm.

Also, try these links for coil calculators:

Pronine Electronics Design - Single-Layer Air Coil Calculator

Pronine Electronics Design - Multilayer Air Core Inductor Calculator

HI amigo

Thanks for the links
And thank you for sharing your coils.

I duplicated your L3, wire 0.53mm, ID 15.1mm, 65 turns, 36mm long and 23.61uH.

The one I had was the same inductance but on 18mm coil form. Yours perform a little better (20mA vs 22mA @ 10,5V and 13,5 MHz), so I just did some experimenting on what mass has to do with it.

Now it finally came together in my mind (I think). The mass must couple capacitive to the LEDs but not to the input side of the AV plug. Doing that I can subjectively more than double the LED brightness without changing the 20mA current consumption, nice.

I'm also glad others can see that the coils are not just piece of cake. Many geometries can result in the same inductance, at least measured at 700kHz by my LC meter. But the wire length being different.

Actually this is nice, as it allows to make a coil with a given inductance and wire length.

@Doc

Thank you very much for the link.

The way I see a learning process, it is about being open minded and forget about pride (almost). So don't count me in for trouble, I have no problem seeing I am weak in knowledge regarding RF issues, there you are the master.
But I do my best to catch up a bit.

I guess you have the same relation to RF coils as an experienced chef has to cooking tasty dinners without receipts.

Eric

[amigo]

@DrStiffler,

I'd be concerned if the supplier could not distinguish between the wire gauges and they are in the "wire" business.


@Tecstatic,

Cool, glad it worked!

I also noticed that L1 has an impact on the input current as well. Lower values will let more current flow (I used chokes to test with, values from 4 to 10uH, so next I might wind some air coils and see how that behaves as well).

[David Barclay]

I know you all very busy building things, but I did notice that this thread had a title which sounded close to something I might contribute to, but perhaps I'm mistaken about that, I'm not sure.

Of course there is no free energy any more than there is a free lunch, but there is a whole lot more energy available to us than we might realize.

An expanding universe is a long walk from the work bench, but the energy that makes it possible is the same energy that sustains and perpetuates the bench, not to mention the tools.

I know this stuff is fun, building motors and the rest of it, but if we are going to step forward into a world with clean sustainable energy for all people we are going to have to rethink a few things.

If we are unsure exactly what energy is and we get it wrong by assuming someone else knows...we may be in for a bit of a let down.

Sure a lot of motor projects look promising, but if they are not capable of accessing the actual energy of universe they are as some have suggested...hobby projects, which are a lot of fun and not an answer to the needs of the day.

It is my opinion that there is an underlying force of energy which is focused to the core of every physical system, which means energy does not radiate under any circumstance.

What radiates is a resistant effect and not energy.

Am I in the wrong thread?

[Tecstatic]

@Tecstatic,

Cool, glad it worked!

I also noticed that L1 has an impact on the input current as well. Lower values will let more current flow (I used chokes to test with, values from 4 to 10uH, so next I might wind some air coils and see how that behaves as well).

I can confirm that, I just changed my 470pF to 270pF and then changed the coil to compensate.

The current dropped to 17mA, a nice 15% drop for the same output.

This must be part of the secret behind mlurye's 0.5mA consumption reported here with 30pF capacity:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post52998

But the way the SGate is used here:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post53048

It looks like just a series connection of two capacitors with unusual geometry and high mass.

@mlurye

Was the SGate connected exactly like in the drawing ?

Eric

[Tecstatic]

Am I in the wrong thread?

Speaking for myself only, yes.

Eric

[Rectified]

Am I in the wrong thread?

I’ve been following this and other threads for some time now with an open mind and willingness to better understand all possibilities of the unknown, all points of view should be consider. When we are quick to jump to conclusions based on ones perceptions, is it our limited knowledge or theirs ? Learning will always be hindered if we are unwilling to listen to what others have to contribute. I personally would need more of an explanation to positively disagree one way or the other and would welcome David B. the opportunity to explain his comment and opportunity to contribute.

Rectified

[Joit]

What radiates is a resistant effect and not energy.

I look more at it like, there are a lot of Energy what is convected from anywhere.
Sun gives Radiant Energy and all the other Things around, whatever there is,
and all is connected together in Cycles what trows out and move Energy.


For me, it doesnt looks like, this Buildings of the SEC take 'resting Energy', they interact with allready circulating Energy inductive.

You can see Radiant Energy at same Way at all your E-Smog what is around,
EM fields, Magnetfields, it are all Radiant, and when they wobble, you can take Energy from them.
Maybe a good comparison are the Waves from Sea.
Just looks like, Energy is really steady, it only need something, what carrys and moves it.

[DrStiffler]

HI amigo

Thanks for the links
And thank you for sharing your coils.

I duplicated your L3, wire 0.53mm, ID 15.1mm, 65 turns, 36mm long and 23.61uH.

The one I had was the same inductance but on 18mm coil form. Yours perform a little better (20mA vs 22mA @ 10,5V and 13,5 MHz), so I just did some experimenting on what mass has to do with it.

Now it finally came together in my mind (I think). The mass must couple capacitive to the LEDs but not to the input side of the AV plug. Doing that I can subjectively more than double the LED brightness without changing the 20mA current consumption, nice.

I'm also glad others can see that the coils are not just piece of cake. Many geometries can result in the same inductance, at least measured at 700kHz by my LC meter. But the wire length being different.

Actually this is nice, as it allows to make a coil with a given inductance and wire length.

@Doc

Thank you very much for the link.

The way I see a learning process, it is about being open minded and forget about pride (almost). So don't count me in for trouble, I have no problem seeing I am weak in knowledge regarding RF issues, there you are the master.
But I do my best to catch up a bit.

I guess you have the same relation to RF coils as an experienced chef has to cooking tasty dinners without receipts.

Eric

@Eric

Damn, I must really be bad in my attitude or 'curtness' in my retoric
No way was I saying anything about anyone's lack of knowledge or experience. What I meant was pure science is the best guessing game around.
Remember I did not come up with any of this from a book of instruction. I have a room of coils, cone, pyramid, flat, bifilir, yo name it, I wound it.

For my part I guess I need think of that when I answer something, I'm in a hurry and don't know why? I kind of drive the same (now here is how I say it wrong and people take it wrong) but if a car is holding up traffic, get him off or pass him. Wow! that does sound bad. I have always said, if I want to be cutting I can.

Hey! never implied anything, you are doing very well and Exciter are a can of worms.

[Tecstatic]

Communication is one of the most difficult things to do right, this post no exception

I’ve been following this and other threads for some time now with an open mind and willingness to better understand all possibilities of the unknown, all points of view should be consider. When we are quick to jump to conclusions based on ones perceptions, is it our limited knowledge or theirs ? Learning will always be hindered if we are unwilling to listen to what others have to contribute. I personally would need more of an explanation to positively disagree one way or the other and would welcome David B. the opportunity to explain his comment and opportunity to contribute.

Rectified

I don't disagree with you in this.
I gave a simple answer to a simple question, nothing else.

I just think the post belongs in a more general thread about radient energy.
As I have understood this thread here, it is about the building and application of DrStiffler's devices.

I think it is necessary to keep a certain degree of focus in specific threads like this.
Other threads on the general ideas are equally justified and welcome, no hostile feelings.

Personally I practice being open minded by following other threads up to a third of my time, and I do my best to see if the ideas promoted in other threads can be applied to achieve results.

By making specific threads with wide or narrow scope, I have the choice for efficient access to my personal area of focus.

Alternatively the forum could have everything in just one thread, but that would consume too much time when you want to focus on a specific issue or device.

You have to be open minded to get a vision on what is possible, and dedication, focus and hard work to make the vision become reality.

This was a longer answer on the difficulties for the adaption of communication to a "target" "group" of people.

Eric