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  • Moving Stator PMM design

    After studying many permanent magnet motor (PMM) designs, patents, and patent applications, I have come to the conclusion that nearly all of these feature two basic parts - a rotating part (rotor), and a stationary part (stator). The stator magnet, or magnets, are normally locked into a stationary position to interact with the rotor magnets through magnetic repulsion of like poles. This works fine when the rotor is at a specific point in its rotation where a rotor magnet is slightly past being in direct alignment with a stator magnet. When in direct alignment, the repulsion is strongest but the repulsive force against the rotor is neither forward nor backwards, so it is in equilibrium. During rotation, as a rotor magnet approaches a stator magnet, the two magnets are repelling each other with a force that is counterproductive, or counter-rotational, and the closer the two magnets come together, the stronger the counter-rotational force will be. It is difficult to overcome this unwanted repulsion during the approach, and inventors normally resort to utilizing several techniques since one alone is usually not enough. These techniques may include installing the magnets at specific angles, the use of magnetic shielding materials to redirect magnetic fields, use of electromagnet pulses or mechanical leverage timed to maintain rotation by providing an assist at positions of high rotational resistance, and the use of multiple rotors having progressively offset alignments to each other. All of these techniques complicate and add expense to the construction phase, and the end result is then dependent upon the interaction of all these elements being in a perfectly adjusted relationship. It is difficult, and often disappointing, as anyone who has ever attempted such a build will attest. To my way of thinking, then, it would seem to be preferable to use a design that completely, or nearly completely, does away with approach side repulsion. To accomplish this, it is necessary to move the rotor and stator magnet away from each other during the approach to minimize repulsion, and then realign them after the equilibrium point to provide maximum repulsion. This can be done by physically moving the stator magnet, the rotor magnet, or moving both. There are many differing means by which this can be accomplished, but in looking at this from a purist sense, it should be done in such a way that the mechanical apparatus for achieving this movement is made to function by either direct or stored forces which are generated by the repulsive rotational action of the device. In other words, there should be no external forces added in order to maintain rotation.

    To this end, I would like to offer a design suggestion. Once you understand what I am suggesting, perhaps some of you will offer similar concepts, or offer suggestions for implementing the design through a construction project that would be both simple and affordable for proving the concept. I may also offer additional concepts, or variations on this concept, as time allows.

    My first suggestion is to use a design which features multiple rotor magnets, but only one "stator" magnet. I use the term "stator" magnet loosely here, because that magnet will not be fixed in a stationary position. Rather, it will be fixed within a holder, or cradle, that will move. The movement will be at a 90 degree angle to the direction of rotation of the rotor. Therefore, if the rotor is mounted on a vertical shaft, the movement of the stator magnet will be straight up and down - alternating from one side of the rotor perimeter to the other. To balance the applied force required to maintain this movement, it would seem preferable to mount the rotor on a horizontal shaft so that the stator carriage moves horizontally, and requires the same applied force in either direction. The actual movement of the stator carriage will be accomplished by mechanical means (either gearing or cam action) that links and times the stator carriage movement to the rotation of the rotor. So, keeping that in mind, let's take a look at the basic design principle. As you look at this diagram, picture this as looking down upon the rotor from above. At first glance, it will seem that there are many stator magnets involved, but this is not the case. Each blue circle simply shows the alignment of the single stator magnet in relation to the rotor magnets at any given point of rotation. The moving stator magnet does not move at an angle as depicted by the series of blue circles. Rather, it moves straight across the rotor face. So for each new position of the stator magnet, you need to vizualize that the rotor has moved leftwards. Starting at the left side of the diagram, at stator magnet position #1, the stator magnet produces no repulsive rotational effect. At this position, there is a slight repulsive effect with rotor magnet 'a,' but as the rotor is turned slightly to begin rotation, magnet 'a' moves to the left as the stator magnet moves across the rotor face to position #2. At position #2, the stator magnet is in high repellency with rotor magnet 'a,' and this results in rotational thrust which turns the rotor and moves the stator carriage further across the rotor face towards position #3. At this position, the stator magnet has a strong repulsive effect upon magnet 'b,' and a weaker but additive effect upon magnet 'a,' and rotor rotation continues. This process, in turn, continually advances the stator carriage until it reaches position 8 and comes to rest. You will notice that at position #7 the stator magnet is in high repellency with rotor magnet 'f,' but is in very weak repellency with approaching magnet 'g.' As the stator magnet moves from position #7 to position #8, it moves even further from advancing magnet 'g,' and there is no appreciable counter-rotational repellency involved. At position #9, the stator magnet reverses direction and begins a new cycle across the rotor face while rotor magnet 'g' continues a leftward movement unimpeded. At stator magnet position #10, the stator magnet is in high repellency mode with rotor magnet 'g,' and produces thrust that further rotates the rotor and resultantly moves the stator carriage towards position #11 and beyond, until the stator carriage comes to rest again at position #16. The stator magnet evades counter-rotational repulsive action with rotor magnet m while on its way to position #16. After coming to rest, the stator magnet again reverses direction and begins a new cycle. The number of cycles will depend upon both the size of the rotor and the actual spacing of the rotor magnets.



    As it might be a little difficult to visualize the relationship of the stator magnet and the rotor magnets during rotation, I have prepared an animation showing the actual movement, and this is shown below:

    Best regards from Rick
    Last edited by rickoff; 03-17-2009, 05:48 AM. Reason: sp
    "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

  • #2
    Rick,
    that is an interesting idea
    But why do you think that the one moving stator magnet will make the rotor develop more energy than it is used to move the stator magnet? Anyway, I thought that this moving stator magnet could be just moving as a pendulum. Of course this way the rotor should also have a curved radial plane so that the distance between stator and rotor magnets are always equal.
    Thanks,
    Jetijs
    It's better to wear off by working than to rust by doing nothing.

    Comment


    • #3
      SO the Stator is only static on the horizontal plane. It can and will move vertically while attached to a track or somthing.
      If thats the case, and it rotates thats pretty fair. You have alot of oppurtunity to develope power, by simply adding more stators.

      Are you building it?


      Matt

      Comment


      • #4
        Reply to Jetijs:

        Originally posted by Jetijs View Post
        Rick,
        that is an interesting idea
        But why do you think that the one moving stator magnet will make the rotor develop more energy than it is used to move the stator magnet? Anyway, I thought that this moving stator magnet could be just moving as a pendulum. Of course this way the rotor should also have a curved radial plane so that the distance between stator and rotor magnets are always equal.
        Thanks,
        Jetijs
        Hi Jetijs,

        Assuming that I use neo magnets, the repelling action, and resultant rotation will be quite strong. And since there is virtually no appreciable counter-rotational repelling action, there should be more than adequate force generated to enable movement of the stator carriage. The stator carriage can be very lightweight and made to move easily, and very little repellency is working against this movement, as you can see.

        Whatever method is employed to produce the stator carriage movement, it must be directly linked and timed to the rotor rotation so that the stator magnet will always be located properly, as indicated in my drawings, for best repulsion effect. Right now I am looking at different methods for achieving this movement. Something I immediately thought of was that the action is identical to that of a level winding fishing reel, which is basically a cylinder with a helical groove. This principle is better understood by looking here: KMODDL - Kinematic Models for Design Digital Library

        I understand your pendulum movement idea, but that does complicate the build by requiring a concave surfaced rotor. I'd like to keep this as simple as possible to allow for easy replication.

        Thanks for your interest, Jetijs.

        Best wishes,

        Rick
        Last edited by rickoff; 03-16-2009, 05:38 AM. Reason: sp
        "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

        Comment


        • #5
          Reply to Matt:

          Originally posted by Matthew Jones View Post
          SO the Stator is only static on the horizontal plane. It can and will move vertically while attached to a track or something.
          If thats the case, and it rotates thats pretty fair. You have a lot of opportunity to develop power, by simply adding more stators.

          Are you building it?

          Matt
          Hi Matt,

          The stator always moves as shown in the animation at bottom of post#1, in relation to the rotor. The animation shows the turning rotor either when viewed from above (the preferred orientation), or when viewed from the side. If oriented so that the animation is a side view then of course the stator carriage is moving up and down, vertically. If oriented as a top view, then the stator carriage is moving back and forth, horizontally. So in other words, the carriage moves in alignment with the orientation of the rotor shaft, whether that be vertical or horizontal. As mentioned in post #1, horizontal is the preferred orientation, because that allows the carriage to move in either direction with the same applied force. If oriented vertically, it would require more force to move the stator carriage upwards than down due to the weight of the magnet. The carriage itself need not be hefty, and the lighter the better.

          Yes, it would not be difficult to add a second, or even a third stator carriage to create additional torque once the single stator model is up and running. I will definitely be building this, Matt. Right now it is just in the conceptual stage, and I want to complete all of the design aspects to my satisfaction before building the prototype. The idea for this concept came to me while watching a magnet experiment on YouTube, which can be seen here: YouTube - Perendev Jalapeno magnetic motor The video is of poor quality, and the working model is nothing more than a novelty toy, but it does demonstrate that the concept of a moving stator does work. In the experiment, a can is drilled and fitted with small magnets in a rising and falling pattern around its perimeter. The experimenter holds another magnet which has been mounted on the end of a short wand, and the wand is aimed at the line of magnets. The repulsion effect starts the can rotating, and the experimenter then moves the wand in an upward and downward movement to continue the rotation. So it is the same principle, basically, except that my rotor magnet layout is different, and of course also because of the fact that I intend to mount the stator magnet in a moving cradle that will not require hand movement. The YouTube experiment shows the rotor magnets laid out in a gentle and continuous sine wave pattern, and this works but it necessitates that the stator magnet must pass directly over the rotor magnet line at the end of the up slope, and cross over the magnet line again at the bottom of the down slope. The crossover points, of course, result in counter-rotational repulsion that is unwanted. Furthermore, the sine wave pattern of the rotor magnet layout requires that the speed of the stator magnet motion must be constantly varied as the angle of the slope increases and decreases. While that is a relatively easy compensation for an experimenter to approximate while using a hand held magnet wand, such movement would be difficult to achieve by mechanical methods. That's why I chose a direct alignment angle for the rotor magnet placements, which of course allows the stator carriage to move at a constant speed across the rotor face. And allowing for the staggered breaks at the ends of the magnet rows eliminates the necessity of a crossover point, thus doing away with counter-rotational repulsion.

          Another drawback of a handheld stator wand, versus a controlled stator carriage movement, is that the experimenter simply guesses how to move his hand and settles for whatever movement that can be achieved. With a precisely controlled stator carriage, though, the alignment is always perfect for maintaining optimum repellency and achieving the greatest amount of rotational thrust possible.

          Thanks for your comments, Matt, and I hope that you and others will continue to find my posts interesting and useful.

          Best regards to you,

          Rick
          Last edited by rickoff; 03-17-2009, 07:57 AM. Reason: sp
          "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Rick,

            Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this interesting setup. I think the key question is making the friction in the helical groove the minimum possible. This mechanical solution may have more promise than any other mechanics.

            You setup reminded me to user Liberty at overunity.com forum because he solved the up-down movement by fixing an arm vertically to a loudspeaker cone (membrane) and drove the loudspeaker with small low frequency AC power. This in itself has not yielded yet a COP > 1 but it is a good approach towards it...
            See it here: DynamaticMotors - Converting Magnetic Force Into Motion - Permanent Magnet Motor and the videos: title

            rgds, Gyula

            EDIT Just noticed his video access has been made private, sorry for this, I did not know it. Probably you can use this contact page: DynamaticMotors - Converting Magnetic Force Into Motion - Permanent Magnet Motor
            Last edited by gyula; 03-15-2009, 11:20 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Rick

              If used vertically you could add guides to the top of the rotor that would help lift the stator as it went along (An example wold be the inside of a dishwasher on the top rack). But as in alot of mag motors that little bit of tension may stall the proccess enough that it doesn't run. And more might not help.
              Just somthing to keep in mind.

              Great little project. I wish you the best.

              Matt

              Comment


              • #8
                Reply to Gyula:

                Originally posted by gyula View Post
                Hi Rick,

                Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this interesting setup. I think the key question is making the friction in the helical groove the minimum possible. This mechanical solution may have more promise than any other mechanics.
                Hi Gyula,

                Thanks for your comments. The helical grooved cylinder idea certainly would work for the required motion, but the drawback to that would be that it would make replications difficult. I have been thinking some more about other alternatives, and one in particular seems quite practical. I have modified my previous diagram to show the basic idea below. You will see that my idea is to attach a monorail track directly to the rotor in an alignment that will follow the path that the stator carriage will take in relation to the rotor magnets. This is just a simplified diagram to show the track layout, and of course the stator magnet will not actually be centered over the rail as shown. I will replace this with a more concise diagram later, as I can find time, but for now I think you will get the basic idea.


                The point to remember here is that this rotor design does allow for an unobstructed track path which can be utilized to precisely guide the stator carriage. The track will have to be rigid enough to serve as an effective guide surface, but must also be flexible enough to conform to the curvature of the rotor surface. I may possibly use polycarbonate for this purpose. I haven't quite decided yet how the carriage will ride the rail, but obviously there will need to be a downward projection below the carriage with something that will contact the rail and be guided by it. At the moment I am leaning towards using a downward projecting shaft with a rubber wheel placed at the bottom. For this arrangement to work, the wheel would be in contact with the left side of the track at all times. Therefore, at the bottom of the track travel, the track would actually curve above the wheel and stop, and then pass the wheel off to a track continuance that begins below the wheel so as to keep the wheel at the track's left side. The track must be above the wheel to move the carriage downwards, and below the wheel to move the carriage upwards. Because of the angle of contact, the wheel will always roll along the side of the rail, and be forced by the rail to drive the carriage in the desired direction shown in my animation at bottom of post #1. I would experiment with the size of the wheel needed, but would probably start with something about an inch in diameter, as this would roll along nicely. The carriage will be attached to a low-friction slide mechanism to move easily in a straight line up/down motion.

                Just thought I'd throw this out here now while I am thinking about it. It's my way of taking notes and remembering later what passed through my mind today. It's all conceptual now, and I have a lot of leeway to modify the construction details at this point in time.

                Thanks again for your comments. All input by interested persons is appreciated, and I'll do my best to answer any questions that may arise.

                Best regards,

                Rick
                "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

                Comment


                • #9
                  Am I mistaken if I assume it work the same way as Veljko Milkovic device? Maybe the stator is being moved by the anvil and the rotator move the pendulum?

                  What method to move state between #8 to #9? using momentum or another set?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Reply to Matt:

                    Originally posted by Matthew Jones View Post
                    Rick

                    If used vertically you could add guides to the top of the rotor that would help lift the stator as it went along (An example would be the inside of a dishwasher on the top rack). But as in alot of mag motors that little bit of tension may stall the process enough that it doesn't run. And more might not help.
                    Just somthing to keep in mind.

                    Great little project. I wish you the best.

                    Matt
                    Hi Matt,

                    I think it was actually your mention of the word "guides" that set me to thinking about the rotor guide track monorail that I just posted information about. Thanks for the jog to my noggin. I'm still thinking about the least resistive way to "ride" the rail, and am open to all suggestions. The wheel method that I mentioned should work nicely, but the only thing that may prove awkward is the fact that the wheel must spin counterclockwise while the carriage is moving down, and then clockwise while the carriage moves up.

                    Another possibility could be to use a channeled track, and place a teflon bushing inside the channel, at the bottom of the carriage guide post.
                    The channeled track would look something like what is found here:
                    McMaster-Carr
                    Three bucks for 4 feet of this is quite reasonable.

                    Whatever tracking method I use, I must aim at getting the least possible rotational resistance while moving the stator carriage. The carriage should be as lightweight as possible, and mounted on super-slick slider mechanism so that movement is near effortless. Perhaps I will try out the slider mechanism pictured here:
                    McMaster-Carr
                    The mechanism would be mounted to the PMM's framework, and the carriage would then be mounted to the slider. For a lightweight, but sturdy carriage, I'll need something other than aluminum. I don't want any aluminum near the stator magnet. Perhaps a block of balsa wood may be well suited, and certainly worth a try.

                    My first step will be to build the rotor and mounting framework, and then to mount the slider mechanism and stator carriage. Then I'll work on the tracking until I am satisfied with that. The last step will be to mount the rotor magnets, and that is because I may want to play around with the track attack angle a bit. As shown in my diagram, it is about 45 degrees. By lessening the attack angle to 30 degrees, the movement of the carriage should be made easier, and the distance of carriage travel would also be less.

                    As I say, any ideas that could prove beneficial are appreciated and welcomed. If this works for me then it will work for anyone else who builds it, and all the details will be found right here. Diagrams, photos, materials list, measurements, construction details, and all. Nothing will be hidden or left to guesswork. Heaven forbid, but if I should croak before I can finish a working model then I hope that someone will carry the concept forward.

                    Best to all,

                    Rick
                    Last edited by rickoff; 03-16-2009, 09:49 PM. Reason: sp
                    "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Reply to sucahyo:

                      Originally posted by sucahyo View Post
                      Am I mistaken if I assume it work the same way as Veljko Milkovic device? Maybe the stator is being moved by the anvil and the rotator move the pendulum?

                      What method to move state between #8 to #9? using momentum or another set?
                      Hi sucahyo,

                      No, there is no pendulum involved in this design. I intend to move the stator carriage by means of a track mounted to the rotor. And yes, momentum is what will move the stator between positions #8 and #9. I'm planning to use a flywheel of sufficient weight to maintain a fairly constant rotational speed.

                      Rick
                      "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        @Rick
                        That track is exactly what I was saying. If you had a wheel that was grooved with guides on the top it could ride up and down. But it would only work if the magnetic assembly produced more power than the weight of the track..
                        But then again if you use that track, and allow your magnet to slide between 2 points freely then you might not need anything else. Like a Drawer track.

                        Also remember if the track is aluminum set your magnet off of it about 2-3 inches so you don't create feild in the aluminum that causes drag.

                        Cheers
                        Matt

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Reply to Matt:

                          Originally posted by Matthew Jones View Post
                          @Rick
                          That track is exactly what I was saying. If you had a wheel that was grooved with guides on the top it could ride up and down. But it would only work if the magnetic assembly produced more power than the weight of the track..
                          But then again if you use that track, and allow your magnet to slide between 2 points freely then you might not need anything else. Like a Drawer track.

                          Also remember if the track is aluminum set your magnet off of it about 2-3 inches so you don't create feild in the aluminum that causes drag.

                          Cheers
                          Matt
                          Hi Matt,

                          Yes, the slide mechanism that I am considering for the stator carriage movement is quite similar to the operation of a drawer slide, except that it has no wheels.

                          This one has an 11 pound load bearing rating, which is overkill for the application. One slider mechanism would probably be sufficient, but I may use two for better balancing and stability of the carriage. For this application, the slider rail will probably best be mounted to the framework inverted from what is shown above, so that the slider block is facing downward toward the rotor. This rail is aluminum, and so of course I will mount the rail sufficiently high above the rotor so that there will be no reaction with the magnets. I figure that I can attach a block of balsa wood between the slider blocks of the two rails to form the main body of the stator carriage, and use a second block beneath the carriage body to form the downward reaching stator arm that holds the stator magnet. I want to try using balsa because it is very lightweight, yet exceptionally strong for its weight. If that doesn't work out well then I can use nylon, teflon, or polycarbonate. The weight will still not be much of an issue, since a relatively small amount of material will make up the carriage and arm.

                          I'm liking the idea of the channel track more and more for attachment to the rotor surface.

                          This material, of polycarbonate, comes in 48 inch long strips, will be easy to apply to the rotor surface and will form nicely to the countour of the curvature. This will basically work the same as the fishing reel type cylinder that I talked about in post #3, and which is seen here:

                          The main differences are that the groove will be in the polycarbonate channel rather than cut into the surface of a cylinder, and there will be no criss-cross pattern as is the case with the cylinder. If I used a cylinder, I would have to machine the grooves in the surface and then would have to mount the cylinder on a shaft and bearings, and would need to turn the cylinder with gearing or a timing belt. The power required just to rotate the cylinder would be robbing some amount of the PMM rotor's output. Fixing some polycarbonate channeling directly to the rotor surface does away with all of the construction negatives, and at very little cost, while requiring no drive power from the rotor. So the only negative force encountered will be whatever small force is required to move the carriage back and forth on its horizontal plane. I can't see that as amounting to very much, and I think that if the repulsive force of the magnets is strong enough to overcome that small carriage movement force, then it has to work.

                          Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Matt.

                          Best to you,

                          Rick
                          Last edited by rickoff; 03-17-2009, 01:28 AM.
                          "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Rick

                            Very interesting, and I think promising concept. I will be watching this thread closely and wishing you much luck in your build.

                            success to you,
                            Gene

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Reply to Gene:

                              Originally posted by gene gene View Post
                              Hi Rick

                              Very interesting, and I think promising concept. I will be watching this thread closely and wishing you much luck in your build.

                              success to you,
                              Gene
                              Hi Gene,

                              Thanks for the vote of confidence. This design concept is still in the early phases of development, and so there is definitely room for improvement. I am currently considering the forces encountered during the stator magnet's path of travel. While the carriage itself will move almost effortlessly, the stator magnet will tend to encounter a certain amount of repulsive resistance at specific points along its path. I want to overcome as much of that resistance as possible, and am looking at various ways to accomplish that. I will probably be doing some flat panel experiments to test some of those ideas. To do this I will build a flat panel to which I can mount the "rotor" magnets and the stator tracking channel. The panel will be on wheels to allow it to move freely on a counter or table top, and the stator carriage will be mounted to a horizontal slider mechanism straddling the flat panel. I will use a pull scale to measure the force required to pull the stator magnet past the resistance points, and will then work towards eliminating most of that resistance. To anyone looking at the diagram showing the monorail path, the points along that path affording the greatest propulsive thrust, as well as the points where the greatest resistance is encountered, should be somewhat evident. I will post another diagram later showing these points of interest.

                              Best regards to you,

                              Rick
                              "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

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