24v dc scooter...

[Jbignes5]

I'm getting a razor 24v scooter and wanted to know if there was a way to convert it to recapture the bemf and us that to recharge the batteries to extend the distance of the scooter?
I havent seen to many conversions of existing dc systems and was wondering if there is a way to do this without totally killing the new motor. Any suggestions?

Also I have ordered 10 rechargable solar yard lamps and wanted to know if there was a way to hook that all up as well.

Thanks for the help

jbignes5

[Mark]

I dont think it would be possible without killing the performance of the motor. I have see one way you might be able to do what your thinking of but, it would require (3) 24 volt batteries.

[Jbignes5]

Do tell...

Thats what this post is about let me in on the suggestion lol. I have to check to see if the motor is a brushed or non-brushed but I want suggestions. It comes with 2 12 volt lead acid batteries from what I have read but I think they are only very small. Will have to see.
What I am hoping for is the motor is a brushless with a controller. If thats the case then it is open to all suggestions. The model is a Razor e300s scooter. If I have to I'll just replace the motor with my own version or a production model that I have modified.
Some have modified the e300 series to operate at 36 volts but I wanted to know if some of the principles of what is being experimented on here on this forum could be applied to standard dc motors.

[Mark]

Jbignes5

Ok, hopefully you can understand this because I dont know how to draw diagrams on the computer. Your motor runs off 24 volts so lets say we have (3) 24 volt bateries just to keep things simpler. Put 2 of the batteries in series so you have a 48 volt supply and 24 volt supply. Now connect a wire from the negative 48 volt supply and hook it to the negative of the 24 volt supply.
So that will leave you with a positive 24 volt terminal and positive 48 volt terminal. Hook the motor up to these positive terminals. The motor will turn clockwise one way and if you reverse the wires it will run the other way. While the motor is running it will take power from one battery while charging up another. I know it sound crazy but it works. You can also hook the 2 sets of batteries together on the positive side and run the motor off both remaining negative terminals.

Ive tried it with a little motor and (3) 9 volt batteries. Not sure if the effieciency is any better or not but its suppose to be capturing the spike in the charging battery.

[Stealth]

Most electric scooters use a brushless DC motor of 24,36, or 48 volts. You can capture some of the elcetricity back by the regenerator system. When coasting or braking, the motor will regenerate electricity. There are several websites you can visit, especially the electric auto websites, that have more details on the system. Or you can hook it up just like a windturbine generator, with magnets attached to the wheels and a coil of wire mounted to the frame. Good Luck. Stealth

[Jbignes5]

Yes.

Thats what I was thinking about the magnets and coils on the wheels. But I wanted to know if I could capture the bemf or inductance kickback as well or is it a moot point (Too much loss of power)?

[Jbignes5]

Jbignes5

Ok, hopefully you can understand this because I dont know how to draw diagrams on the computer. Your motor runs off 24 volts so lets say we have (3) 24 volt bateries just to keep things simpler. Put 2 of the batteries in series so you have a 48 volt supply and 24 volt supply. Now connect a wire from the negative 48 volt supply and hook it to the negative of the 24 volt supply.
So that will leave you with a positive 24 volt terminal and positive 48 volt terminal. Hook the motor up to these positive terminals. The motor will turn clockwise one way and if you reverse the wires it will run the other way. While the motor is running it will take power from one battery while charging up another. I know it sound crazy but it works. You can also hook the 2 sets of batteries together on the positive side and run the motor off both remaining negative terminals.

Ive tried it with a little motor and (3) 9 volt batteries. Not sure if the effieciency is any better or not but its suppose to be capturing the spike in the charging battery.

Hmm intersting. So all of this is done without altering the drive circuits?

[lighty]

@Jbignes5

If your scooter have BLDC motor then you'll have a major problem recovering inductive collapse impulse because of the way its controller is engineered. I would love to explain in more detail but I simply don't have time. I have electric scooter myself and I realized there is only so much modifications one can do without compromising operation of onboard controller. I mean it could be done but it would involve redesign of a part of controller or making and programming your own. The thing is that those controllers almost always use full bridge configuration. Because magnets on the rotor are set S-N-S-N-etc. one hase to apply appropriate impulse in order to be able to controll the direction of rotation. It also requires precise timing so there is also hall sensor embedded in the stator. In a word there is no easy way to recover inductive collapse.

One of the things you could do is to use regenerative breaking like Mark suggested. If your BLDC don't support that function you can always buy more sophisticated controller and configure it by software to suit your needs. In my experience the best BLDC controllers are Kelly's ones. They are very configurable, they have regenerative breaking system and they are very reliable.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Jbignes5]

@Jbignes5

If your scooter have BLDC motor then you'll have a major problem recovering inductive collapse impulse because of the way its controller is engineered. I would love to explain in more detail but I simply don't have time. I have electric scooter myself and I realized there is only so much modifications one can do without compromising operation of onboard controller. I mean it could be done but it would involve redesign of a part of controller or making and programming your own. The thing is that those controllers almost always use full bridge configuration. Because magnets on the rotor are set S-N-S-N-etc. one hase to apply appropriate impulse in order to be able to controll the direction of rotation. It also requires precise timing so there is also hall sensor embedded in the stator. In a word there is no easy way to recover inductive collapse.

One of the things you could do is to use regenerative breaking like Mark suggested. If your BLDC don't support that function you can always buy more sophisticated controller and configure it by software to suit your needs. In my experience the best BLDC controllers are Kelly's ones. They are very configurable, they have regenerative breaking system and they are very reliable.

Hope this helps a bit.

No lighty, I am honored that you posted here.
All the Info you posted is wonderful. It helps me to understand this setup. I am an electronic technician so I do have some knowledge of what you are saying but DC motors and control systems wasn't my forte'. Mostly computer electronics and TV's.
Which model of the Kelly brand controllers would you recommend. Just the small brushless DC controller? Weird that the 12-24v controller is 149 and the 24-36v is 129... lol shouldn't that be the other way around lol.
Will this controller also allow me to ad in a charging generator from the wheels? Or is that a seperate beast all together?
Also seeing that this setup us two 12v lead acid=24v (I am guessing, will know more when i get them as to the type) could i double the batteries in parallel and double the range or at least a boost in range?
I have to say this is gonna be a project for me so I would like it all.. Yes eventually I would like to design my very own controller to handle all the stuff I'm gonna have on this including regen braking power generation from windmill type generators on the hubs and solar as well. Got some cheapo solar cells comming off of yard lights soon too to mess around with. So yeah it would be nice to have the extra stuff too to mod the current system but also allow for extra stuff as well like 500 watt motor and all the other generation systems I am planning. I am guessing I should make them plugin modules so that if one part fails I can easily replace that sub system.
Any help you could give me lighty and You'll get full creds for the help and that goes for every one that contributes.
Thanks guys this is what I expected from this community!

[Matthew Jones]

Before you tear your scooter up you should try a small tesla switch on the bench. You could use 3 relays like these.
You fire them with a reed or hall effect sensor switch . The switch will be driven off of a magnetic communtator either attached or embeded into a wheel. (Preferably attached to the side) You will have to place the magnets around the wheel so the orientation of magnetic feild is evenly spaced. This takes testing but it is pretty easy to do.
You will then power the system off of the tesla switch bridge rectifier instead of pulling the power off of the batteries. Everything will work in a 300.

The motors razor uses are not great motor for a tesla switch. I have since found alot better but they don't do bad. You should get about 8 -10 times more energy out of the system than is normally posiible.

The biggest problem is you will need not only the 2 batteries in it but 4 additional batteries. The 300 series are not that big so you'll have to find a place to put them. You will also need more protected space for the relays and such. You'll have to come up with a switch that puts all six batterries into a 24volt configuration to charge or find a another charger.

And no doubt your in for some headaches but the thing is perfectly doable. You'll need some good mechanical skills to make all the additions. about 120 dollers for batteries and another 40 for the switching side.

Nothing else you can do besides mount 100+ watts solar panel on it will out perform it. There are already a few on the road, along with electric pocket rockets.

If you need a schmatic let me know.

Matt

[lighty]

@Jbignes5

If you check out controllers specs you will notice that some of them (not all of them) support regenerative breaking and that is what you are after for (charging batteries when breaking). Also you can set a great deal of parameters through RS-232 and Windows software so you can play with that also.

There was already a thread about BLDC motors and controllers so check that out.


@Matthew Jones

I see a practical problem there. I have electrical scooter. Adding additional batteries is a challenge since there is not much space to do so. Also, if added at wrong points it will change scooter's centre of gravity. I did add additional batteries to my scooter but only to raise its maximum speed.

[Matthew Jones]

Ya its a trick. Thats why I told him to go the bench first. Build a good configuration.
You can mount a box off of the back deck and put six small batteries. the 300 series uses the little 5 amp hr batts. I think the deminsions are like 5"x3"x4". But they have to be pretty stable.
This is one here.

The controller is not going to be the problem on a razor, the mechanical clutch in the wheel that allows overun (Like bicycle) is the problem. If the motor is not powered the back wheel free wheels. So you cant do any brake regeneration without solving that. I could never figure out how. The motors don't really kick out alot of energy as a generator. To use the charge you would have to switch the batteries back to a parallel configuration, if you got more than 12 volt that would depend on the speed. They are just little 100 watt brushless motors.

Bigger scooters have already got this stuff but the kids scooters don't. They just pulse the current to the motor on a 50% duty cycle to allow for double the runtime.
Its a shame but what you want for $250.

Matt

[lighty]

Aaaah, that's scooter? I thought he was talking about single or two seater higher speed scooter like mine.

[Jbignes5]

Umm...

Unless you forgot it is the e300s. It has a 250-300 watt motor on it and a seat as far as I know it does. But I will know when i get it for sure because I know they change from build to build heh.
I haven't decided what I am gonna do yet for anything else but for these simple mods. 2 more batteries, maybe some gears change with extra chain, Power generation from the wheel "windmill" generator plus limited solar option. As for extra space the rear has a deck so I think a custom box there would be nice. The controller could be on top of that battery box in a double heatsink design.
Eventual mods include a custom controller with all inputs monitored and output to a display on the shroud I will build for the handlebars. A custom built motor of mine will be added to prove any claims I got about said motor "test bed".
This project will be about making a new setup but for now I want to have the basic setup running with slight mods to boost performance. I guess this is really about the conversion of a production line transportation device that will eventually prove that this community has great ideas that work!

[Mark]

Is it more like a moped than only electric, and how much are they?