Latest: No back torque generator.

[broli]

Oke this is my latest design in the on going quest of either eliminating back emf in a motor or back torque in a generator. This design fits the latter. Also I am aware that the magnetic setup is similar to Marinov's Siberian Coliu, but that's also where the similarity stops. This design should NOT work as a motor. I you push current through the conductors nothing will happen.

For initial tests a brush and collector are not needed. One could wire a small light bulb on the rotor along the conductor to observe current flow. I the process is reverses i.e. having a battery, the rotor should not spin at all as all the forces cancel out according to newton's third law.

So where's the catch? It's in the permanent magnets. We all know the famous "magnets can't do work" argument. Well they sure can, you have almost an infinite amount of electrons spinning without any voltage source. The catch is if you start spinning this and current starts to flow in the conductor this same current will in response cause the electron spin to slow down. But since the speed of spin is nearly the speed of light it shouldn't matter much. So the only side effect I predict is that the magnets will decrease a nearly unmeasurable amount in field strength when it's spinning.

This is why you can't replace the magnets with an electromagnet. The electromagnet will drop in voltage as the main conductors rise in voltage so you end up with no gain.

[elias]

Thanks for posting this Boreli.

I'd like to comment on this:
First of all this setup is not a closed system, because it has magnets and the energy is flowing "through" it.

Secondly, this system closely resembles the homo-polar generator, and the N-machine, which has drag. This because the magnetic field seems to not rotate while the magnets are rotating, almost like when you rotate a cup of water and the water seems to remain almost stationary while you rotate the cup. The homo-polar generator also works as a homo-polar motor when current is applied. The copper disk is attached to the magnet.

This design is quite interesting as it seems that it is somehow an asymmetric homo-polar generator, I personally hope that this design to be drag free, but I think that the magnetic field produced by the current drawn from the conductor may have a dragging effect on the "stationary" magnetic field flowing through the system. But what needs to be understood is the relationship between "empty space" and magnetic fields, which is quite "unknown". How does a rotating magnetic field affect the vacuum is the question that needs to be answered. The whys of the generating effect of the homo-polar generator is not known so so clearly. It only partially fits the current theories.

Anyway, All of these are theories and are meaningless! :-)
Your design is considerably different from the homo-polar generator and might not have any drag, which maybe what Bruce Depalma was looking for. Only building and testing it will tell for sure that it would work or not.

Best wishes
Elias

[broli]

Thanks elias for taking your time to post.

And yes this is inspired by the homopolar motor as I first "rediscovered" it about 3 months ago and have been researching and learned a ton ever since. Personally I believe I have a very good understanding of it.

Most people think the conducting disk attached to the magnet in a homopolar motor is the cause of torque while this is not that true. It cannot be the cause of torque or newton's third law would violated and you would have free energy already .

It's in fact the wire outside that is stationary and brushing against this disk that is the cause of the torque. The only function of the disk itself is creating a back EMF impeding your applied current. This is something that not many people know, I believe.

The only case when the conductor disk is indeed the cause of torque is when the magnets are stationary as well and not attached to the rotating disk. The magnets will not even rotate because both the rotating and stationary conductors apply a reaction torque on it that cancel the torque on the magnet out.

I also ditched the biot-savart-lorentz law wich is paradoxical in favor of the old ampere force law which always seems to hold and agrees with newton's third law in its strong form ie. Forces are opposite and on the same working line. This is not the case with the lorentz force.

The biot-savart-lorentz law doesn't even account for all these reaction forces the right way but ampere's does and many have showed it like ampere himself, the grannaue brothers and Jorge Guala-Valverde who very recently died.

Even the rail gun is the prime proof of this. The fact there is a recoil force on the guiding rails is something the biot savart law doesn't explain. But the ampere force law explains this very easily.

Also you don't need to go too far to understand that rotating a magnet around its axis doesn't change the field. Imagine having a conducting hoop with current making a nice dipole field. Now if one would rotate this around its center what you essentially would be doing is speeding up both the moving electrons and neighboring atoms. If we assume there's only negative charge present then depending on direction of rotation we would be actually increasing the field strength because we are mechanically speeding up the electrons instead of electrically. If we rotated the other way we would be decreasing the speed. If the electrons moved at 1 m/s and I rotated the hoop at -1 m/s there net speed would be 0 m/s and the field would die. This is simply relative motion.

Now to get back to our magnets. If we assume our magnet is a current hoop as well but with incredibly fast current. We would have the same thing. If we rotated with the current we would see a slight field increase, if we rotated against, we would see a field decrease. Now they tell us the electron spin is near the speed of light. Whether we rotate with or against it it wouldn't matter as the change in net speed would be so little that we probably couldn't even measure it. Because the speed of light dwarfs our applied rotation.

And this is also the only thing I can think of that would happen in this design. There will be a force that will try and slow down the orbital or spin speed of the electron. But since it's a permanent magnet we don't really care. The magnet will not die as we are not trying to change the fiel'd direction just trying to make it weaker. So the only thing that may arise if this generator was running at 100k RPM you would see the field strength go down by 0.000001 Gauss or something .

This is also why I believe the general and special theory of relativity are completely wrong because they were based on wrong assertions.

I think I went a bit overboard with this post as I made a summary of 3 months of research in it .

[Electrotek]

Interesting idea, broli. Looking at your picture, the fields are the same as a hard drive magnet. And you can get tiny coils from the anti skip mechanism on the laser head from an old CD Rom drive.

But is that magnet spinning on its axis? It looks equivalent to spinning a bar magnet around its center, perpendicular to the axis.

[broli]

Yes electrotek it's spinning on its axis and it's also very crucial that the magnets and conductors are glued together and thus spun together. If you do not do this you will have a counter torque and your output would be AC.

[elias]

Broli,

Thanks for the comments.

Have you tested this device, does it generate anything? How much voltage is produced? Because if it is low voltage and high current like the N-machine it cannot light light bulbs so easily.

Elias

[broli]

No I have not tested this yet. But if my assumption is correct the voltage scales linearly with the amount of windings you use. For instance if you had 1 volt for 1 winding you would get 100 Volt if you used 100 windings. While in a homopolar motor/n-machine you are restricted to a single winding thus the voltage is low by nature.

I'm going to try and whip out a formula that gives the voltage using some parameters like rpm and size.

Edit: Oke just finished putting together a formula that applies to this whole setup including amount of windings per conductor halve. The voltage is the net total that the halves give you.

[Peter Lindemann]

Borderlands, 1987

No I have not tested this yet. But if my assumption is correct the voltage scales linearly with the amount of windings you use. For instance if you had 1 volt for 1 winding you would get 100 Volt if you used 100 windings. While in a homopolar motor/n-machine you are restricted to a single winding thus the voltage is low by nature.

I'm going to try and whip out a formula that gives the voltage using some parameters like rpm and size.

Edit: Oke just finished putting together a formula that applies to this whole setup including amount of windings per conductor halve. The voltage is the net total that the halves give you.

Dear Broli,

Michael Knox and I ran some experiments along these lines in 1987. They were shown on the Borderlands film Free Energy Research.

What we showed was if you take a disc of copper, and place multiple magnets on it, with alternating field poles facing the disc, you could get an N-machine to produce AC currents directly. This alternating voltage potential appeared on sliding brush contacts in all of the following locations:

1) between the center and the perimeter, as in a standard N-machine
2) between any two perimeter locations defined by opposite magnetic poles
3) between any two center locations defined by opposite poles

#3 was the real "mind stopper" as two brushes, only 12mm apart, on a solid copper plate in a dead short circuit, showed the same voltage potential difference as either #1 or #2. In Depalma's paper titled Secret of the Faraday Disc, he states that once rotating, every point on the disc behaves as a separate reference to the inertial field. Our experiment demonstrated this very convincingly.

You can read DePalma's article here: http://www.free-energy.ws/pdf/secret...raday_disc.pdf

We came to the conclusion that it was possible to build a very low drag, AC generator with two shaft brushes, whose low voltage output could be raised in a transformer, without any electronic switching losses.

We showed this to DePalma in 1987, but he remained committed to the development of his DC designs. To my knowledge, these ideas have not been pursued by anyone since we published our findings 22 years ago.

Good luck with your experiments.

Peter

[broli]

Thanks for your post PL, I am honored.

I did read up on DePalma's work but I didn't like all his theories. It was exactly the thing I am trying to avoid, making something simple sound complex. From my humble view he just made a classic Faraday homopolar generator. Maybe at some high speeds something unusual happened but it would be something I can't comprehend now. The design I just posted should make sense with the most basic laws. At least with the old ampere force law .

Your experiment also sounds interesting. Where the magnets stationary or rotating with the disk?

I believe far too little are experimenting with these kind of motors/generators. I truly hope this is finally the one as I have went through quite a trip to reach this point. I should start by gathering the needed materials.

[Peter Lindemann]

Rotated Together

Thanks for your post PL, I am honored.

I did read up on DePalma's work but I didn't like all his theories. It was exactly the thing I am trying to avoid, making something simple sound complex. From my humble view he just made a classic Faraday homopolar generator. Maybe at some high speeds something unusual happened but it would be something I can't comprehend now. The design I just posted should make sense with the most basic laws. At least with the old ampere force law .

Your experiment also sounds interesting. Where the magnets stationary or rotating with the disk?

I believe far too little are experimenting with these kind of motors/generators. I truly hope this is finally the one as I have went through quite a trip to reach this point. I should start by gathering the needed materials.

Broli,

In our experiments, the disc and the magnets all rotated together. In that sense, there was no relative motion between the magnets and the conductors. Whatever produced the potential difference, it is NOT standard induct laws. It relates essentially to the inertial properties of electricity.

Also, unlike the standard N-machine, since the magnetic fields were not cylindrically continuous, they DID rotate with the disc.

This is where, I believe, Elias is also wrong about your design. When the fields are alternating, they must rotate with the magnetic material that projects them.

Also, having seen and tested numerous "N-machine" type systems, I believe you are in error when dismissing DePalma's theories and assuming that the "one-piece" homopolar generator (DePalma) is the same as the "two-piece" homopolar generator (Faraday). There behaviors are remarkably different, on the bench.

I encourage you to build your design and test it. It's actual operation will surprise you!

Peter

[Iotayodi]

In our experiments, the disc and the magnets all rotated together. In that sense, there was no relative motion between the magnets and the conductors. Whatever produced the potential difference, it is NOT standard induct laws. It relates essentially to the inertial properties of electricity.

I see the earths magnetic field in play also. From my limited knowledge anything that moves can create a different magnetic field if its surrounded by a magnetic field. The inertial properties are a new concept for me but it makes perfect sense.

[elias]

Peter,

Thanks for the useful comments. Actually I made these comments from my own experiences with homo-polar motors, which are really high RPM ones. I built one which the was a round Nd magnet attached to a shaft. I connected the center of it to one end of the battery and touched the surface of the Nd Magnet with a small wire from the other end of the battery which is of conducting material. It started spinning valorously. This design is the case which the magnet and disc are rotating together. It was a simple yet exciting experiment. I wondered then that if we were to draw current from the N-machine, it would have had a reverse motoring effect also.

I agree that the magnetic field must somehow rotate in Boreli's design but I actually am confused what rotation means for magnetism. Magnetism seems to be some property of space, and in the case of this motor, It partly fits the Lorentz Force Equation: F = qVB, Or F = IBL, which I is the current, B is the magnetic field strength of the magnet, and L is the apparently the Radius of the disc.

I like the inertia analogy, which reminds me of the centrifugal force being partly responsible for this effect.

There must be something extra in a twisting magnetic field to see any generation of electricity from Boreli's design, because it does not fit the Lorentz Force Equation at all. The B vector is canceled out in Boreli's current loops, and with No B vector how can we have any current? Only experimentation will tell.

Thanks you are always inspiring.

Elias

[broli]

I don't really understand what you are saying Elias. Are you saying that because there's no flux change there should be no induced current? Or have you forgotten there's a secondary motion, namely the rotation. This motion makes a new current "flow" and this is what causes the "induced" voltage.

Edit: Oke attached is a diagram that I hope will make things more clear. It's explained using the Lorentz force law which I don't like to use much but since it's a closed loop it doesn't matter. The "catch" as I mentioned earlier is that you have to apply the same idea on the electrons that are spinning to form the strength of the field. But this is not important since we're dealing with a permanent magnet. Try and substitute the magnets by an electro magnet and you'll see what I mean. All you have to do is flip the current conductors 90 degrees if you wanted to replace the PM with an electromagnet.

Again this is why only magnets can be used. Or else as the the voltage is increasing on one pair of conductors it's decreasing at the other and you have gained nothing. While a permanent magnet has a permanent current flow .

An additional note: In textbook when induced current starts to flow we see a counter force arising impeding the motion that is inducing the current (in our case the applied rotation). But what these textbook don't talk about is the reaction force. We know it's on the magnets but how exactly can we define it. This is where things start to get very misty as they try to make it look complicated by saying "ah yeah it's in some exchange of momentum and kinetic energy of the magnetic field" w/e that crap means. If you use the old forgotten ampere force law you will see exactly where this reaction force applies to and agrees with newton's third law in the strong form (the weak shouldn't even exist).

Now the point I'm trying to make is. This flowing current will produce a counter torque trying to stop our rotation but that's the beauty of this setup. Because the magnets will experience a reaction torque due to newton's third law. SOOOOO if we attach them both to each other both forces cancel out and we have no lenz effect with free flowing current.

[elias]

Boreli,

You know I have been thinking that "rotation" is something essential for existence and it is something mysterious in my opinion. The planets rotate and orbit around other rotating objects, water rotates and creates a vortex when flowing, etc. The centrifugal force is something mysterious also, which is the force exerted to the objects from the fabric of space I suppose.

I didn't mean that your setup wouldn't generate, The only observation is that there is no apparent relative change of B flux inside your loop when rotating, because your loop and magnets all rotate together.

If this thing works, you have found a new relation between rotation, magnetism and electricity and you might be the second Faraday. Your design somehow makes sense to me. I always thought that rotation itself should do something for us, without drag, but we have been too dumb to figure this out.

If this thing works, then we have a new science of magnetism.

Thanks for sharing your ideas
Elias

[petersone]

Hi Broli
I like your ideas, but how to build? sizes,rpm.etc. also what about dr.peter's idea of ns poles to give ac. sounds very useful,easy to transform the low volts.
Watching all with interest,thanks
peter