"RICK'S PIPE DREAM" Magnetic Motor-Generator

[rickoff]

Reply to Shamus:

Hi Rick,

In experimenting with my smaller, ceramic magnet wheel I've come to wonder about the length of the groups. I've found that if I hold either pole of my mostat in the middle of an all north or all south group on the wheel, nothing happens. I can get the wheel to turn, as long as the timing of the back and forth of the mostat is correct, however.

So I guess my question for you is, does this happen on your wheel when only one pole of your mostat is above a magnet group? It seems to me that barring any already existing momentum that a mostat north pole sitting in the middle of a north facing group wouldn't necessarily turn. Is this your experience?

The nagging point that keeps coming back for me is that once the initial attraction starts (and, with neos it's quite powerful) the magnets in the group on the wheel don't contribute anything, do they? In other words, all of the movement seen is coming only from the momentum of that initial attraction, no? Of course you still get the kick on the back end when you switch poles on the mostat but, assuming that the magnets in the middle of the groups contribute nothing to the rotation, wouldn't that be an argument for using smaller groups of magnets on the wheel?

Never mind me, I'm just groping around in the dark, looking for a candle to light.

Hi Shamus,

No, having a shorter array in the magnet group would not be beneficial. Here's why:
The attraction accelleration at the front end of the group does provide half of the motive force, just as you suggested, while the repulsive attraction at the tail end provides the other half. In between the two ends, there is an equilibrium effect, which does not provide motive power to provide rotation, but neither does it oppose rotation, and that's what is important to remember. Having relatively long magnet groups thus allows for slower movement of the stator magnet across the wheel rim, and this equates to less effort expended. Also, a gentler curvature of the timing track results in less drag. Something has to ride the track to provide the timed movement of the stator, and the slower that we can move it (and less we have to move it) are two very important factors in making this MOSTAT design viable.

Now there is a reason why I chose groups with ten magnets, versus groups with 15, 20, or 25. While the equilibrium effect does not in itself impede rotor travel, the rotor definitely will slow down somewhat if allowed to pass through a long array of magnets, thus losing some of the accelleration that you had gained at the front end. It would be comparable to pressing in the clutch pedal of your car once you get it up to 65 miles per hour, and letting it coast. So if using long groups, the speed of rotation would waver noticeably, it would take longer to reach a certain rpm level, and your maximum rpm level would be somewhat less than with shorter rotor groups. My experience is that groups can be anywhere from 8 to 12 with fairly decent results, and so I chose the mid point of that spread, which it seems should be optimal.

I hope that helps everyone to understand better that there definitely are good reasons behind the things that I do. These were good questions, and I thank you for bringing them up.

Best wishes,

Rick

[jibbguy]

Please excuse the "armchair" intrusion, Rick.

I stand in awe and admiration of the great way in which you have presented this Open Source project to date. It's a wonderful example of how to do it "right" imo, and will serve as a fine model for others in the future for their own projects. Concise, easy to replicate, comprehensive... Refreshing

And i suspect we may be owing you a debt of gratitude for this work in the weeks to come. This and other great projects going on here are exactly what is needed.

I'm looking forward to seeing you get the "flywheel" weight on there, and see what effects it adds. It's also VERY NICE that we will be able to easily tell the results "with or without" regarding that AND all the other incremental design changes in an objective manner... It says a lot for the for-thought behind the basic design

[FuzzyTomCat]

Hi Rick,

I was wondering If you had thought of or tried using a set of magnets on the bottom of your rotor wheel as you did on the top ? The top set magnet faces for rotation exactly as you have now and a bottom set magnet ends (not faces) for back and forth positioning using attraction and repulsion to toggle your MOSTAT the small amount needed. The only problem might be magnetic eddy fluxes effecting the other magnets but you would know more on this than me, I'm sure ....

Great work,
Glen

[rickoff]

Many thanks for your kind words, jibbguy. It does take quite a bit of work and planning to present a project in this manner, with dozens of photos to crop and label, multiple videos, and countless hours spent writing instructions and explanations for this thread. While skilled individuals could simply look at a photo of the Pipe Dream apparatus and be able to replicate it, I wanted to enable anyone to duplicate what is seen here, and that is why I felt that complete and precise instructions that would be easy to follow were a necessity. The other factor of greatest importance was to have a design using materials that would generally be readily available in any locality, and that would be easy to work with while only requiring a minimum of tools. Now I do show some digital readout tools (such as the carpenter's level, pull scale, and tachometer) being used in my videos, but these are mainly for presentation purposes and really aren't required tools. And while I could have shown the manufacturing process performed using the preferred accuracy of a laser guided radial arm cutoff saw and drill press, I felt it would be better to show how all of this can be done with reasonable accuracy using hand tools and working on a bench top or floor. At some point, when I have enough time, I plan to start preparing some prefabricated kits, with all the frame parts accurately cut, drilled, and ready to assemble with the necessary hardware included. This could all go into a single box of relatively small size for shipping. The person receiving the package would then be able to quickly assemble the unit with a bare minimum of tools and skill being necessary. At that stage, I would hope that some of the better equipped replicators would join in the effort to produce and distribute these kits. I only claim an intellectual copyright to the design, and grant free license to project members to build and distribute kits. Using power equipment and quick setup jigs, one could easily prepare a dozen or more kits for mailing in an hour or less, so the labor involvement would be minimal and allow the kits to be sold for low cost to the buyer. It's important to me that any such kits be manufactured precisely, and that buyer costs be kept to a reasonable minimum, but I would also want builders to receive a reasonable payment for their efforts. To that end, I feel that a $20 per kit charge for labor, plus actual cost for parts and shipping, would be fair to builders and buyers alike. The buyer would pay $20 just to purchase a 1/4"-20 tap, tap drill, and tap handle, and would still have to do a lot of work if constructing the apparatus on their own, so the $20 labor charge would be a great deal to them. To the builder who can knock out a dozen kits in one hour, that equates to $240 dollars for one hour of work. And that isn't at all being greedy. Approved builders would be expected to use quality equipment, and this can be costly. The $240 labor rate helps to pay off the investment rapidly, and to purchase other special tools that can improve quality while speeding up the manufacturing process. Some of the excess income can then be reinvested to further develop the project build. It's a win-win situation for all involved. Of course no one should jump on the bandwagon at this time to start manufacturing kits until the basic design for the working self-runner magnetic motor is finalized. So be patient a while longer, but do start thinking about your opportunities to do something good for yourself and your family while working on something that can also make life better and easier for everyone else as well.

Best regards to all,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Glen:

Hi Rick,

I was wondering If you had thought of or tried using a set of magnets on the bottom of your rotor wheel as you did on the top ? The top set magnet faces for rotation exactly as you have now and a bottom set magnet ends (not faces) for back and forth positioning using attraction and repulsion to toggle your MOSTAT the small amount needed. The only problem might be magnetic eddy fluxes effecting the other magnets but you would know more on this than me, I'm sure ....

Great work,
Glen

Hi Glen,

As a matter of fact, one alternative method (or enhancement method) that I have planned for would use such forces to advantage. I'm hoping that the inertial force of my flywheel heft will be enough to move the stator, but if this doesn't quite prove to be the case then I have two very plausible options:
1. I can add further weight to the flywheel until there is enough inertial energy stored in the flywheel for extraction at the needed movement periods. This would be my first course of action.
2. The stator movement assist method, using magnets, can be accomplished by adding mounting type magnets (the types with mounting holes through them) to the wood flywheel, aligned at positions where you want an attractive or repulsive assist to occur. An optional attachment method would be to attach short metal plates to the surface of the flywheel and then place solid magnets on those plates. This would have an advantage in that the magnets could easily be moved to whatever precise position appeared to offer the best assist. The attachment plates would also effectively shield the flywheel magnets from having any interaction with the rotor magnets. If the flywheel was the same diameter as the bike wheel, then the bike wheel rim would already provide that shielding effect, but my plan is to make the flywheel about 4" larger in diameter (2" overhang). The facing out pole of the flywheel magnets would depend upon the attraction or repulsion effect you want. Another magnet would be attached to an extension of the stator pivot arm that would position this magnet near enough to take advantage of the attraction or repulsion force, but far enough so as not to create any detectable drag on the movement of the rotor. Perhaps only two flywheel magnets would be required to assist the stator movement at each rotor group, and would be placed at the central and tail end sectors. None are needed at the front end, because the stator is already positioned properly at the tail end repulsion mode of one group to make effective use of attraction at the head end of the next group. So just 8 flywheel mounted magnets should suffice. The idea, of course, is to use just enough force to assist movement of the stator - not to forcefully cause movement. If too much force is used then this will cause drag friction between the monorail track and the track riding mechanism (stator arm drive carriage).

Speaking of the monorail track, I'll be discussing the elements of that in the next construction steps, and will also show how to prepare and install the flywheel.

Best wishes, Glen, and thanks for bringing up this subject. So many things running through my head that I can't possibly discuss them all at once or I would never get anything accomplished, but I will take the time to answer specific questions and ideas if relative to the project build.

Rick

[gene gene]

Hi Rick,

For some time now I have been thinking of and speaking to Cathy about how I might approach you on the possibility of preparing and shipping kits for you. Once again I see you have this well thought out in advance. I hope that you might consider me for this when things get to that point.

For now we just keep checking back here, anxiously awaiting your next video. Are you testing with your tracking system yet? Wishing you success.

Keep up the good work,
Gene

[rickoff]

Reply to Gene:

Hi Rick,

For some time now I have been thinking of and speaking to Cathy about how I might approach you on the possibility of preparing and shipping kits for you. Once again I see you have this well thought out in advance. I hope that you might consider me for this when things get to that point.

For now we just keep checking back here, anxiously awaiting your next video. Are you testing with your tracking system yet? Wishing you success.

Keep up the good work,
Gene

Hi Gene,

I must have missed something. Who's Cathy? Is she your wife?

Ayuh, as folks say here in Maine, I have thought this angle out and I'd be happy to have you onboard making up kits when we get to that point. It would probably be best to offer 4 types of kits. One would simply be a hardware kit containing all the fasteners and the prepared axle mounting plates. The customer would purchase the PVC, cut, and assemble the frame. The second type would contain the hardware and the PVC pieces cut to proper sizes, drilled, and ready for assembly. This is the kit that I referred to in my previous post. The third type of kit would have all this plus the magnets that are needed. In these first 3 instances, the customer would be responsible for buying a 26" steel rim bike wheel locally, and completing the remaining assembly steps. The fourth type of kit would also include the wheel with the magnets, spacers, track base, track, and flywheel pre-assembled, and the customer would only need to assemble the frame, mount the wheel, and set up the stator mechanism (which would also be included, of course, in the hardware package). The $20 labor charge would pertain to the 2nd and 3rd type of kits, while perhaps a $50 or more charge would be appropriate for the 4th type of kit.

I had hoped to have my flywheel mounted by today, but ran into some honey-do's, if you know what I mean (honey do this, honey do that, etc.) and of course my wife's requests always get top priority. I have laid out my rotor pieces on the 3/4" birch plywood sheet that I have here, and will be cutting them out in the morning. I should be able to mount them and do another video test to post in the evening. The tracking setup will follow after that.

I'm nearly finished preparing the construction pdf file. I have taken photos of the steps to make the flywheel, and those will be shown here and added to the pdf file as well. I figured I'd best make the flywheel before adding the tracking system, because the heft of the flywheel will be critical to making the tracking system work well. I also wanted to test the spin-up of the wheel, as I did in video #16, with just the flywheel added. I think this test is going to tell a lot. It may take longer to get the wheel up to the same speed of rotation that I achieved in video #16, but if I can get it there with the added heft then it will show that nothing has been sacrificed, and we will have a heck of a lot of gain ready to tap in the form of stored inertial force.

Best regards to you Gene,

Rick

[rickoff]

Pipe Dream Update

Hi folks,

My flywheel is now finished, and mounted on the bike wheel rim. It is 26+5/8 inches in diameter, while the bike wheel is 22+5/8 (even though it's said to be a "26-inch wheel"). The flywheel ring is 3/4" thick birch plywood, and is 4 inches wide. It overhangs the bike wheel rim by 2" at the outside. I made this from a 24" square piece of birch plywood, and some will probably say that isn't possible, but I will post the construction steps in another day or so and show you exactly how it was done. I took somewhere around 25 hi-res photos of the flywheel construction, and it will take me awhile to label everything and write the instructions.

I weighed the flywheel in at 3 pounds + 12 ounces, so that's some pretty good added heft at the right place, and should provide a nice inertial momentum boost. I can't stress enough the importance of the flywheel in making this magnetic motor work. It is too late tonight to start doing a video test showing the flywheel in action, but I will get to after I get some sleep - I promise. Last night I was up all night, and only had 4 hours of sleep after that, so I'm starting to nod off about now. But before I head up to bed, I'll leave you with a photo of the Pipe Dream Flywheel.



In other news, the construction pdf file is completed now, and you are welcome to download it. It is about 4 MB in size, and you can find it here:
Ricks Pipe Dream Project.pdf - Windows Live

Good night, and best wishes to all,

Rick

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Get Some Sleep

Hi Rick,

Looking very good, can't wait to see how you are going to move the stator. Get some sleep, at our age they say we do not need so much sleep, but the grey cells need some rest, well that is what I have found. I have lots of projects going on at the same time here and finding it difficult to co ordinate all, so it is a little here and a little there.

Mike

[rickoff]

Pipe Dream Update

Hi folks,

My flywheel is now finished, and mounted on the bike wheel rim. It is 26+5/8 inches in diameter, while the bike wheel is 22+5/8 (even though it's said to be a "26-inch wheel"). The flywheel ring is 3/4" thick birch plywood, and is 4 inches wide. It overhangs the bike wheel rim by 2" at the outside. I made this from a 24" square piece of birch plywood, and some will probably say that isn't possible, but I will post the construction steps in another day or so and show you exactly how it was done. I took somewhere around 25 hi-res photos of the flywheel construction, and it will take me awhile to label everything and write the instructions.

I weighed the flywheel in at 3 pounds + 12 ounces, so that's some pretty good added heft at the right place, and should provide a nice inertial momentum boost. I can't stress enough the importance of the flywheel in making this magnetic motor work. It is too late tonight to start doing a video test showing the flywheel in action, but I will get to it after I get some sleep - I promise. Last night I was up all night, and only had 4 hours of sleep after that, so I'm starting to nod off about now. But before I head up to bed, I'll leave you with a photo of the Pipe Dream Flywheel.



In other news, the construction pdf file is completed now, and you are welcome to download it. It is about 4 MB in size, and you can find it here:
Ricks Pipe Dream Project.pdf - Windows Live

Good night, and best wishes to all,

Rick

[gene gene]

Hi Rick,

Your flywheel set up is a beautiful thing. With a 3#-12oz. weight it should provide a good amount of boost, again made from materials available to all. The PDF file really gets all the info out there, I salute you for all your hard work. Just make sure to get some sleep for health.

Best wishes,
Gene

[rickoff]

Reply to Gene:

Yes, Gene, it does look pretty good, and that's the inferior side of the wood that you see in the photo. The only power tool that I used in making this was a hand held jig saw with a 12 tooth per inch scrolling blade. The cutting was all freehand. Not too bad for an old geezer with failing eyesight, is it? There's a small amount of runout, but that shouldn't be too troublesome while I'm operating at relatively low rpm. Later, after I mount this on the new wheel, I will dress the edge down to where it is even all around, and that will be a big help to balancing. Balancing would have to be done in the vertical position as shown in the photo, and I'll talk more about that later. It basically amounts to finding the heavy spot, which will always end up at the bottom after a rotation, and then adding weight directly opposite that to compensate.

I didn't think to weigh the wheel alone when I salvaged it, but it too has some heft since it is a steel wheel. I will weigh in the new wheel that I'll be using later. I'd say that at least 95% of the wheel weight is concentrated right at the rim, so that in itself makes for some good flywheel effect. With the 3+3/4 pound wood flywheel added, things should work all the better. I'll be doing the flywheel test video after dinner, and I'm expecting that to yield some positive results.

Best 2 U,

Rick

[rickoff]

Flywheel Test video

Hi folks,

I have just uploaded video #17, which is a first test spin of the new flywheel. YouTube is still processing the file, but it should be ready soon. This video test was done with the stator set at maximum height, as I wanted to see if the wheel could still be turned adequately at that position. Well, it did, as you will see. I also did a test video with the stator gap set back down to 1", and the results were astonishing. I am going to hold off posting that one, though, until I repeat the test to confirm that my tachometer reading was accurate. If so, then I nearly tripled the rpm attained in video #16. I think that it probably was accurate, because the wheel was definitely spinning faster than I have seen it go before, and even the accellerative force through the first magnet group, when starting from a standstill, was amazing. A very powerful start, as you will soon see. I assumed that the performance would be better after adding the flywheel, but wasn't sure if the negative effects (some amount of runout, off balance, and the extra weight on the bad bearings) might end up disappointing me. But even with these negatives this flywheel is definitely a big plus, and I'm quite certain it will go a long way towards making the tracking system feasible.

Off to get some sleep now. Catch you later.

Best wishes,

Rick

[Mark]

Hi Rick

I've been anxiously watching your progress, excellent work so far!

I was wondering if instead of having a moving stator if it would be possible to move the rotor magnets instead. I realize its not possible with your current set up but what if the rim was say 3 inches wide where the magnets mount and you just moved the appropriate magnets to either the inside or outside of the rim? Do you think it would work?

Keep up the good work and I look forward to seeing your rail or track set up.

Mark

[rickoff]

Reply to Mark:

Hi Rick

I've been anxiously watching your progress, excellent work so far!

I was wondering if instead of having a moving stator if it would be possible to move the rotor magnets instead. I realize its not possible with your current set up but what if the rim was say 3 inches wide where the magnets mount and you just moved the appropriate magnets to either the inside or outside of the rim? Do you think it would work?

Keep up the good work and I look forward to seeing your rail or track set up.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Yes, I'm certain that could work, and I have also considered that possibility. It is worth testing out, but it does become more problematic and involved to set up these movement relationships for 40 magnets than it does to simply move the stator. I'd be glad, though, to see you working on this method. One solution that could work well is to mount each group on a metal plate which would be attached to a wheel at just one end of the group in a manner allowing a free pivot point. The opposite end would be linked to the monorail timing track via a track riding mechanism. Thus, the track will pull the lead magnet of the South oriented group to swing outwards, beneath the stator's North pole, and then shift the group inwards to align with the stator's South pole at the tail end. So it's not at all difficult to set this method up, and I'm sure it will work. The question becomes whether or not the drag caused by 4 track riding mechanisms would be less or greater than just one mechanism as required for moving the stator. Eventually I would have tried this method out to compare the two possibilities, and now having the wood flywheel mounted it will be much easier to do, since I can easily attach the pivoting metal strips to the flywheel, along with the timing track at the outside perimeter. I honestly hope that you beat me to it, Mark. With more people involved in performing similar but differing project related tasks and experiments, we can move ahead so much faster.

Glad to see people like you thinking about the possibilities.

Best regards,

Rick