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"RICK'S PIPE DREAM" Magnetic Motor-Generator

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  • Originally posted by rickoff View Post
    Yes, Hoppy, the effect of the repulsions is definitely greater when the pivoting stator "chases" after the retreating tail end of the magnet group for that very small distance produced by the curvature of the arc that is swung, and this is definitely beneficial during that very brief period while the distance is maintained. This action has no increased demand on the energy required for the stator movement, as repulsion is only momentarily prolonged - not increased in force.

    Each magnet group uses the exact same magnetic interactions. Therefore, I'm not quite sure what you meant about the north facing magnet group "being dragged by the moving stator." Could you elaborate, please?

    Thanks,

    Rick
    Hi Rick

    'Dragging' is perhaps not the best term to describe what I'm talking about. As the North Pole magnet group group approaches the stator it will be attracted to the moving stator and if the stator happened to be moving faster than the rotor is travelling, the magnet group would in effect be pulled / dragged along by the stator magnet. I make a surmise about the stator travelling faster than the rotor because if the receeding South Pole magnet group is made to accelerate by the action of the North Pole side of the stator magnet, then I think at some point in its arc of travel it must be travelling faster than the rotor. If I'm right with this, then it follows that energy is being input to the system when operated by hand. Whether or not the energy required to accelerate the rotor can be achieved without external stimulus, that is derived purely from its stored kinetic energy, remains to be demonstrated.

    Hoppy

    Comment


    • Flywheel Construction Steps: Part One

      First let me explain that there are other ways to implement flywheel effect that are in some cases easier than the method of constructing a birch plywood flywheel. For example, several steel weights could be fastened directly to the steel bike wheel rim to obtain any amount of heft desired. In choosing to build a birch flywheel ring, I had a definite dual purpose in mind. I liked the idea of having this large 4" wide ring available to me as a testing platform for a mechanical engine such as is currently being discussed in Peter Lindemann's thread, and have some ideas that I believe could make that a working reality. I also wanted the option of utilizing the wide surface to place some steel sheeting strips that would allow me to try out other magnet placements that just aren't possible on the relatively narrow bike wheel rim. I by no means would suggest that others adopt the birch flywheel ring idea unless they also want to pursue mechanical engine experiments, or possibly wish to utilize the wood surface for some other project uses such as I mention. There are many possible uses, which are only limited by a lack of imagination.

      That said, here are the construction techniques that I used. If one has a well equipped workshop then this can all be made easier, but my intent was to show how it can be done fairly accurately with a bare minimum of tools necessary. Note that these same techniques can also be used to construct a flywheel ring of any desired size using standardly available plywood sheet sizes. I used a 24" square portion of a 24" x 48" sheet, and will be using the remainder to produce a 24" heavy duty all-wood wheel to use as an optional accessory. Later I will show how that is done, but first here are the flywheel ring instructions:



      Note: If you don't have a clamp, and must nail the block to the furring strip, simply tack-nail it lightly so that it can be moved quite easily. The block will need to be moved along the strip in a later step.



      Note: After aligning the panel to center on the middle furring strip, drive a 1+1/4" roofing nail at each end to secure the panel to the strip.






      Note: I have shown this method, of using a pivot point off the plywood panel, to illustrate how arc segments of any size large curvature can be laid out on a standard size plywood sheet. Since I was using a 24" square section of a 24" x 48" panel for this flywheel ring, I could have set the original pivot point directly on the panel. With a 24" x 24" panel, however, that would not be possible.



      Note: You only need to drive the pivot point roofing nail in just enough so that it can't be pulled over when you swing the bar.









      When cutting at the straight lines at the arc ends, cut below the lines to leave the lines in place. When you sand the ends with a sanding block, true them to the lines.



      Note: First determine which two arc segments are the best cut and least blemished ones. Set these in the middle and lower positions shown in the above photo. Lay out the markings for these as shown on the bottom piece by first measuring in 1/2" from each end and making a mark. Next, measure in 5/16" from the line that would correspond to the outer rim edge profile (upper rim line in photo) and make a cross mark to the lines marked previously. Also make a cross mark 5/16" in at the centerline of the lower two arc segments. As shown on the lowest arc segment, additionally mark the drilling locations shown at midpoint between the center and outer marks previously made, and do this for both the middle and lower arc segments. The uppermost arc segment should only be marked at the left end (or whichever end is the best cut one) as the opposite end will be cut off later. Carefully center punch each cross mark with an awl or sharp nail. Then set each piece on top of a scrap 2" x 4" wood piece and drill vertically straight at each mark using a 5/32" drill bit. If you are not using a drill press, use care to drill as vertically straight as possible.



      Note: Before drilling into the rim, be sure to remove all the magnets. They won't be touched by the drill, but the steel bits will be attracted to the magnets and will be difficult to remove from them. I only show the magnets being on the rim because I took the above photo after the drilling was completed. For now, ONLY drill through wheel rim at the guide holes at the two ends of the segment. Insert a #8-32 x 1+1/4" screw and nylock nut to steady one end after drilling it, before you drill the opposite end, and double check for correct alignment of the outer rim marking line to the rim edge before drilling each hole. Place another #8-32 screw at the opposite end of the first arc segment. Attach the second arc segment in the same manner, butting it against the right end of the first segment, but only insert one screw and locknut at the left end as the right end must be raised for the next step.



      Note: If the best end of segment 3 is not the left end then reverse the instructions in the above and below photos. Also, do not be overly concerned at this time about having a perfect fit where the segments butt together. This can be corrected in the final step.






      Note: Before scribing the cutoff line, make certain that all arc segments are in proper alignment with each other, and in relation to the outer edge of the bike rim. After marking the cutoff line, remove the 3rd arc segment and carefully cut the waste end off at the outside of the line. Do not cut on the line, or into it. The idea is to leave the line showing on the arc segment. Now measure in 1/2" from the cutoff end and and make a drilling mark there. Draw a correction centerline, and also make a drilling mark there, as you did with the other two segments, and locate and mark the points halfway between the true centerline and the outer holes. Centerpunch and drill at each mark with the 5/32" drill bit. Proceed to finishing step in Flywheel Construction Steps: Part Two.
      Last edited by rickoff; 06-02-2009, 11:17 PM. Reason: sp
      "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

      Comment


      • Flywheel Construction Steps: Part Two



        Note: The above photo shows the completed flywheel viewed with the stand turned upside down. To get the best possible fit at the segment joints, first use your sanding block to true segment 3 to the arc end lines. With segments 1 and 2 aligned and fastened to the rim at both ends, see if segment 3 fits well in the intervening space. If so, drill through the rim and fasten one end at a time, just as you did with the other segments. Remember to ONLY drill through the rim at the end holes for now. If the fit of the 3rd segment is not quite right, sand one or both ends accordingly until you do achieve a good fit and then drill and fasten. When all looks good, remove one segment at a time, marking it and its location on the rim as "segment 1," "segment 2," and "segment 3," accordingly so that they may be resituated properly later. Now take a 3/16" drill bit and use it to drill through the end holes ONLY of each arc segment to slightly enlarge them. Remount the 3 segments in their correct positions on the rim and fasten the ends with the #8-32 x 1+1/4" screws and nylock nuts. Snug the fasteners, but do not overtighten them as the intention now is to correct for any evident runout of the flywheel. You can use your stator arm's stator mounting block to test for runout as follows:
        1. Position the stator arm, and adjust the mounting block, so that the block is close to the flywheel's outer edge and level with the flywheel surface. Slowly rotate the flywheel while determining and marking the point of nearest contact between the flywheel and the stator mounting block.
        2. Tap that point on the flywheel with a hammer with the intent of moving it farther away by an amount that would neutralize the runout. When satisfied that you have reduced runout as much as possible by this method, tighten down the screws at each of the segment ends, reinsert the 5/32" drill bit in your electric drill, and drill through the rim at the remaining guide holes. Then insert #8-32 x 1+1/4" screws and nylock nuts at those additional locations. Note that I used pan head screws for attachment of the flywheel, with the heads protruding above the wood surface. If desired, the heads can be countersunk below the surface, or flat head screws can be level with the surface if a beveled countersink is used.
        3. Any remaining runout will be due to the imperfections of the arc cuttings done with the saber saw, and these can be sanded at points that are closest to contact with the stator mounting block. A simple sanding block will work fine, and once you get to where you are very close to accurate you can spin the flywheel while finish sanding it with the sanding block. If you have a Dremel power tool with a sanding band attachment, you could optionally think of a way to mount it temporarily to the stator mounting block and gradually bring it into contact with the spinning flywheel edge. Likewise, a small belt sander could carefully be mounted similarly. The end result won't necessarily be better - just easier.

        For your information, I weighed my arc segments after fitting them, and here are the results:




        And here is my new 3/8" axle bike wheel being weighed in:



        As you can see, the bike wheel weighs 4 ounces less than the flywheel, so the flywheel addition more than doubles the heft. Also keep in mind that the 4" wide flywheel ring overhangs the steel bike ring by 2" on the radius, and so the majority of the additional heft is beyond the area where the magnets are attached. This provides increased leverage. The diameter of the flywheel is 26+5/8 inches, and produces a far greater amount of leverage at the perimeter than a smaller diameter flywheel could offer. There is a very definite advantage to building this magnetic motor with a large bike wheel and a larger diameter flywheel, and this advantage becomes quite evident when witnessing the inertial momentum increase which the flywheel provides. While one might tend to think that the added weight of the flywheel, which more than doubles the weight of the bike wheel alone, would cause the wheel to take much longer to spin up, but that isn't the case. The inertial momentum gain actually results in faster accelerations at each of the 8 acceleration points per revolution by helping to maintain all of the acceleration boost that is achieved at the initial moments of the acceleration bursts, whereas the acceleration effects tend to wane somewhat after the initial bursts without the flywheel.


        The next phase of construction will cover the components of the stator tracking and timing system, and I will probably document that in progressive steps since it is the most detailed portion of the construction procedures.


        Best regards to all,

        Rick
        Last edited by rickoff; 06-02-2009, 11:11 PM. Reason: sp
        "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

        Comment


        • I am really surpised that some people still dont grasp the "whole" picture yet. Yes Rick is supplying outside stimulus to the stator. The rotor is being turned completely by the magnetic forces. The only thing left to figure out to make a working model, is to be able to move the stator arm with the stored energy created from the moving wheel. Once the tracking system is in place and if it works as planed then once the wheel is going, Rick will not have to touch the wheel at all except possibly to get it up to speed.

          Comment


          • Grandad Again

            Hi Rick

            Tried posting to you tube but it work not upload, I think I am being blocked, but never mind. Good video and keep going, as a scientist I too have problems with these types who think that they know best. You need to go to the end even if the result is not what you want. I have done what you have, all be it a little different, and it will work with using the minimum of energy to move the stator. A bit of advice, take it or leave it, as I said with the minimum of energy use to move the stator, in which case think very hard on how to move the stator. I have to create an inpulse to start with to overcome the energy going into the stator movement, then it will continue to work. From a dead stop it will not work, but you will find that out for yourself.

            As to the title, Friday I became a grandad, 3.26kilos girl and all well, today came home and so things are a little bit up in the air at the moment, best regards

            Mike

            SKYPE:- CENTRAFLOW GMT+1hr
            Last edited by Michael John Nunnerley; 06-01-2009, 03:27 PM.

            Comment


            • Reply to Mike:

              Originally posted by Michael John Nunnerley View Post
              Hi Rick

              Tried posting to you tube but it work not upload, I think I am being blocked, but never mind. Good video and keep going, as a scientist I too have problems with these types who think that they know best. You need to go to the end even if the result is not what you want. I have done what you have, all be it a little different, and it will work with using the minimum of energy to move the stator. A bit of advice, take it or leave it, as I said with the minimum of energy use to move the stator, in which case think very hard on how to move the stator. I have to create an inpulse to start with to overcome the energy going into the stator movement, then it will continue to work. From a dead stop it will not work, but you will find that out for yourself.

              As to the title, Friday I became a grandad, 3.26kilos girl and all well, today came home and so things are a little bit up in the air at the moment, best regards

              Mike

              SKYPE:- CENTRAFLOW GMT+1hr
              Hi Mike,

              First of all, congratulations on your granddaughter's birth!

              Sorry to hear you couldn't post a comment on YouTube. If you are being blocked then it is certainly by YouTube rather than by me, I assure you. I have only blocked a couple of people who used foul language. Makes me wonder if someone at YouTube selectively reviews comments before they are posted, and filters out nearly all of the "pro" statements, leaving mostly just "cons." I think you and I would agree that most of the "cons" are just that - attempts to deceive others and suppress efforts to inform those others. Their arguments are the same at every turn of the wheel, and are either baseless ones that don't apply to this build, or based upon incorrect assumptions regarding input/output and the forces actually at work.

              The only possibility I see of this being able to start from a standstill, with the tracking system installed, is from the high repulsion margin, as demonstrated in video #19. As can be clearly seen near the end of the video, when I slow the rotor way down, it doesn't take much stored inertial momentum to keep things going even when the anti-rotational forces seen by the fixed stator balance out the positive accellerative forces. If those anti-rotational forces are removed, or mostly removed, from the equation by using a moving stator, then it stands to reason that the rotor could likely continue rotation and even increase speed. And if I do need to give the rotor a bit of hand spin to start it on its merry way, which I agree seems likely, then what the heck. It needs to have at least the minimal amount of momentum required to make things work, and it has to have motion to have that momentum. Of course the naysayers will probably jump on that saying, "there goes Mr. Hand again," but what do I care. If rotation continues at the hand spun speed, or increases in speed, then that's all that matters.

              Best regards to you Mike,

              Rick
              Last edited by rickoff; 06-02-2009, 11:21 PM. Reason: sp
              "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

              Comment


              • Reply to Mark:

                Originally posted by Mark View Post
                I am really surpised that some people still dont grasp the "whole" picture yet. Yes Rick is supplying outside stimulus to the stator. The rotor is being turned completely by the magnetic forces. The only thing left to figure out to make a working model, is to be able to move the stator arm with the stored energy created from the moving wheel. Once the tracking system is in place and if it works as planed then once the wheel is going, Rick will not have to touch the wheel at all except possibly to get it up to speed.
                Hi Mark,

                Yes it is surprising that some people just don't get what this is all about. Then again, maybe they do get it and feel worried. You really have to wonder what motivates the critics and naysayers to perpetuate a constant barrage of mostly redundant negative assertions. It certainly wastes a lot of their time that could be better spent pursuing something that they really are interested in. They must know by now that whatever they say isn't going to deter or detour me, so at this point it only seems logical that they are either simply of the mentality that likes nothing better than arguing, no matter what the argument is or how foolish their stance may be, or that they are simply playing devil's advocate by taking a position contrary to what is stated by me. It can be fun to play devil's advocate for a while, but the true motives behind pursuing that course for an extended period certainly come into question. I find that it helps more when I play a bit of devil's advocate with myself. It can be beneficial to clear your mind and look at something from a an entirely different viewpoint. Here's an example:

                A few years ago I served as a jury foreman. I could see that, after the very first day of proceedings, nearly everyone had already made up their minds about the guilt or innocense of the accused. I asked for a hand count of all those who believed the accused was guilty, and then reminded them that the accused must be considered innocent until actually proven guilty, and that we could not make that determination without first hearing all of the evidence. To prove that they really were giving due consideration to the evidence (both pro and con) being given, I asked the two persons who most vehemently stated their "guilty" opinions to play devil's advocate the next day and present every reason they could possibly think of why the accused might actually be innocent. The trial actually lasted for several days, and ended in a "hung jury" unable to agree on a verdict, but the two persons who played devil's advocate for a day were no longer certain of the accused person's guilt.

                I'll be using my new wheel for the tracking/timing system build, and will first attempt to operate it without the flywheel so that we can accurately determine the differences involved. To test the tracking/timing system I will probably spin the wheel up to a specific rpm level, such as 60 rpm, and then time the rundown period length. I'll do that at least a dozen times, in tests without the flywheel and with the flywheel, and use the mean averages for the comparative data. If the flywheel wins, and I think it will, I will then run some tests with additional weight added in order to determine what amount of weight actually produces the best results. After that, I will probably test the addition of a second, and possibly a third stator, to determine if any gain is realized. And after that, if we still don't quite have a self-runner then I will be open to suggestions for other enhancements and tests to be conducted.

                Thanks for your continued interest and support, and may the magnetic force be with you,

                Rick
                "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

                Comment


                • Hi Rick

                  I hope you will be posting some pictures of your tracking system soon. I am interested in the design. I have been thinking about different ways it could be done and when I see your ideas I'm sure more designs will come to mind. Although you may build the tracking system completely around the wheel the "rollers" will only need to be touching the track when the stator needs to be moved. Timing the stator movement and angle of the track will be very important to reduce friction.

                  Mark

                  Comment


                  • Mark
                    A segmented track may be more of a challenge [But would reduce friction in the places the stator is in a dead zone [if ever]]

                    Was it you that proposed the Record player arm[for stator movement]?

                    I like that idea [yes I am replicating]

                    Can't wait to see Ricks idea!!

                    Chet
                    If you want to Change the world
                    BE that change !!

                    Comment


                    • Reply to Hoppy:

                      Originally posted by Hoppy View Post
                      Hi Rick

                      'Dragging' is perhaps not the best term to describe what I'm talking about. As the North Pole magnet group group approaches the stator it will be attracted to the moving stator and if the stator happened to be moving faster than the rotor is travelling, the magnet group would in effect be pulled / dragged along by the stator magnet. I make a surmise about the stator travelling faster than the rotor because if the receeding South Pole magnet group is made to accelerate by the action of the North Pole side of the stator magnet, then I think at some point in its arc of travel it must be travelling faster than the rotor. If I'm right with this, then it follows that energy is being input to the system when operated by hand. Whether or not the energy required to accelerate the rotor can be achieved without external stimulus, that is derived purely from its stored kinetic energy, remains to be demonstrated.

                      Hoppy
                      Hi Hoppy,

                      Here's what actually occurs:
                      At the tail end of a south facing up magnet group, the stator south pole swings over to repel and accelerate the south group. After that brief movement, there is no further stator movement while the north facing up group approaches the stator. The stator's south pole is already aligned to attract and draw (or drag) in the north facing group in another acceleration burst. All stator movement occurs at the tail end of the rotor groups where there is repulsion effect. There is little resistance to this movement unless it is attempted before the end of the magnet group passes the stator. At that point, it becomes relatively easy to move the stator since the repelling poles are moving away from each other. The stator movement, in swinging its arc, is never faster than the travel velocity of the rotor magnets.

                      It does require a small but definite amount of energy to move the stator by hand, and when I do that it can be considered as adding input energy, but that energy is being used solely to move the stator, and is not stored in the wheel or flywheel. This is true because there is no mechanical linkage between the stator and the rotor that could provide any rotational leverage. All rotation effects are caused as a result of the magnetic interactions between the stator and rotor magnets. When I finally have the tracking/timing mechanism up and running, there will be two distinct differences between this and the hand movement method:
                      1. The timing and placement of the accelerative attraction and repulsion effects will be far better than is possible with the hand method, and will result in better accelerations and higher rpm, thus providing a stronger inertial momentum force that can then be used to drive the stator movement.
                      2. The inertial momentum of the rotor and flywheel will have to be tapped to provide movement of the stator, but will only need to compensate for the small amount of force that was required to move the stator by hand, and I feel certain that more than enough stored force will be available to do that efficiently.

                      Do you follow my reasoning, and if so do you agree with it? It's okay if you disagree, of course, as long as you carefully review what is actually occurring. I have tried to provide very detailed descriptions of the forces involved, and how they actually interact during rotation, but I know it still may be difficult for some to understand clearly unless they see and experience it firsthand and up close. I wish that I could provide better video (top down views and closeups) to more clearly show all this, but I have tried to show the entire apparatus in any rotational views so that people won't suggest that something out of view is aiding rotation. The top down overhead views haven't been possible since I have the apparatus set on a tabletop, and my camera tripod won't go high enough. I could set the apparatus on the floor, but still the overhead view is not good because the bulky PVC stator arm and stator mount blocks any good views of the working relationships that would otherwise be possible. The new stator will be on clear Lexan, and then all will clearly see what the working relationships and interactions are.


                      Best regards,

                      Rick
                      Last edited by rickoff; 06-03-2009, 12:03 AM. Reason: sp
                      "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

                      Comment


                      • Reply to Shamus:

                        Originally posted by Shamus View Post
                        Hi Rick,

                        I am more convinced than ever that even if you were to show the wheel rotating on its own (with the tracking system in place, of course) that people still would refuse to see what's in front of their eyes. I'm sure this is no news to you, but it's probably a waste of time trying to convince such people as it seems that nothing will convince them.

                        I just wanted you to know that I verified your findings on my little 6-inch wheel and things work just as you say. I tried switching in the middle of a magnet group and, while you can sustain rapid turning of the wheel this way, there is quite a bit of "stickiness" when trying to cross in the middle. Crossing at the end results in almost no stickiness. I don't know that I'll be successful with my build as I'm using relatively weak (compared to neo) magnets on my wheel, but I'm determined to see what I can do with proper switching.

                        I'm looking forward to seeing what happens once you get your tracking system in place. I think it will be interesting, to say the least.
                        Is this the small "coffee table" build that was mentioned earlier, or am I thinking of someone else? Yes, no matter the size, the operational principles are the same, and the magnetic effects are the same. The big difference, which could cause the smaller unit to fail, will be in inertial momentum. That's the prime reason why I chose to start with a relatively large scale build. The stored inertial momentum is already very good in a 26" steel bicycle rim, since probably 90% or more of the wheel weight is distributed right at the relatively narrow rim. Add to that an even larger flywheel that more than doubles the effective heft, and that provides substantial inertial momentum. The only question in my mind is whether I actually have enough flywheel weight, or need to add more. There should be a certain weight level that provides best overall performance, and exactly what that is still remains to be seen. I didn't want to go too awfully heavy at first, since I knew it would have a detrimental effect due to my salvaged wheel's bad bearings.

                        Yes, moving the stator in the middle of a group really isn't practical, since it does require more force than is needed after the group passes. It may be practical, though, to slowly move the stator during progression of the group, just enough to center the stator above the rotor magnets. As you probably have seen from experimenting, this results in an equilibrium effect when the stator is centered this way, and there is very free movement of the rotor. This would allow for stator movement at the tail end of the group to be accomplished faster (half the distance has already been moved) and with less curvature of the timing track (thus diminishing roller resistance at the track). If the gap between the stator and rotor magnets is narrow (1+1/4" or less), then it will probably require too much force to make this happen, but when I have the gap widened to 1+3/4" or more it becomes very plausible since the force required to move across a magnet group is greatly diminished, while rotational forces are still quite good. I highly suggest that you experiment with these aspects. When I do have my track set up, I will start testing with the stator at around a 2" gap over the rotor magnets, and then slowly lower it in successive tests to determine what gap will give best overall results. I expect that it will probably be somewhere in the wider gap range. There's a definite tradeoff realized, which is that a wider gap results in less powerful accelerations, but they still are accelerations that are capable of eventually raising the rpm. So while the wider gap setup will take longer to spin up, and may not produce as high a top end speed of rotation, it may very well provide the best opportunity for this MOSTAT method to work as a self runner.

                        Best 2 U,

                        Rick
                        "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mark View Post
                          Hi Rick

                          I hope you will be posting some pictures of your tracking system soon. I am interested in the design. I have been thinking about different ways it could be done and when I see your ideas I'm sure more designs will come to mind. Although you may build the tracking system completely around the wheel the "rollers" will only need to be touching the track when the stator needs to be moved. Timing the stator movement and angle of the track will be very important to reduce friction.

                          Mark
                          Hi Mark,

                          Yes, I will soon start posting some photos of the tracking/timing mechanisms, and will do this in construction stages that represent each of the components.

                          Yes, the rollers only need to create a resistance to the track progression at the points where stator movement is required, and no contact with the track at other times would be desirable. That's why I am leaving a small gap between the track and the wheels. No need for those wheels to turn, or to contact the track with any pressure, unless absolutely necessary. Therefore, very little resistance will be seen during the 80 degree area of rotation between each of the four 90 degree spaced movement cycles. There will, of course be some centrifugal force tending to move the inboard track carriage wheel against the track as the wheel revolves, but this force won't be great and will be offset somewhat by the inward facing downward slope of carriage travel, so I don't see much of a problem there.

                          As you say, the inward and outward angular changes in the track layout will have to be carefully regarded to provide desired movement with least possible resistance at the track. Thus, overly sharp turns should be avoided, and yet we do want the stator poles to move and switch as quickly as possible in order to derive the greatest repulsion acceleration effect practicable. If you look at my previous post, I included an idea that might help by moving half the distance required while still within the rotor magnet group, and I do think this is feasible under the conditions that I specified. Another tactic that can be employed is to link the pivoting stator to the track riding carriage at a point closer to the pivot point, rather than further out. When moving the current PVC stator arm by hand, I am actually only turning the swivel tee 3/16" to obtain a full 1" arc of the stator magnet. Thus, while it obviously requires more force to move the stator if actuating it close to the pivot point, the beneficial side of doing so is clearly evident in that the angular change of the track layout is greatly diminished. In the end, it all boils down to whether a greater angular change is more detrimental to operation than the increase in stator movement force necessary when a lesser angular change and closer to pivot point stator actuation are employed. There is probably a happy medium that will work best.

                          I know everyone is anxious to see the elements of my tracking/timing system, and I will be posting photos of those soon. In the meantime, here's a sneak preview of what I'll be using. Note that in keeping with my goals of using the least expensive methods and materials that I think have a possibility to get the job done, I probably won't get near to the best results possible if I used all high tech specialty components, such as fancy idler wheels for the track carriage. I am actually going to use nylon shower door rollers for my initial tests. These are relatively inexpensive ball bearing roller wheels, and can be purchased at most hardware or building supply stores. Mine are 1/4" in width, 7/8" in diameter, and have a threaded hub that accepts a #8-32 screw.

                          The wheels will each have a 2" long 18-8 stainless steel screw shaft extending vertically upwards to the track carriage, which will simply be a small piece of 1/4" thick Lexan, since the ss screw shafts will only need to be spaced 1+3/8" apart, center-to-center. The carriage will be mounted to a low profile plain bearing guide block that rides in a straight line track, and looks like this:

                          The white area on the guide block is the PTFE bearing surface, which requires zero maintenance and slides along the track with great ease. For my application, the rail will be inverted, of course, and be oriented horizontally across the wheel rim since movement will be radially inward or outwards. The track is just 27mm wide, and the guide block 40mm long, but this assembly is rated with a load bearing capacity of 112 pounds. That's overkill, of course, but I wanted something sturdy and reliable, and with very little slop. This seems perfect for the purpose at hand.

                          Now the two track carriage wheels, together with their 2" ss screw shafts, weigh in at just 1 ounce, and the small Lexan carriage won't weigh much either, so this is very good. The track is made from a 3/8" x 3/4" strip of polyethelene, and will be oriented with the 3/8" dimension between the carriage wheels. I chose this material for the monorail track because it is strong and durable yet pliable enough to be easily formed at the curves without distorting. The track will be fastened down to a 1/4" thick Lexan ring, placed above the magnets and beyond the rim, by drilling through the 3/4" dimension and inserting #8-32 stainless steel screws with stainless steel nylock nuts to bind them from below. The track will serve a secondary purpose of reinforcing the Lexan ring, and I may add additional reinforcement below the Lexan to ensure stability. The Lexan ring itself will be fastened to the wheel rim by drilling down through the Lexan and the 1/4" thick wedge-shaped polyethelene magnet spacers, and installing #10-32 binder head nylon screws with nylock nuts below the rim surface. Of course the intervening spaces between the magnet groups will also require a few spacers below the Lexan ring to maintain stability.

                          The new stator mount will be a relatively small block of 1/4" thick clear Lexan, and will have a pivot point directly over the center of the wheel rim. The pivot shaft will hang downwards from above the rotor, and inclined to provide the stator mount with the same 8 degree offset from horizontal that the the bike wheel rim is manufactured at. The pivot point and the angle offset ensure that the stator movement is always concentric and parallel to the rotor magnets. The pivoting stator mount will be coupled to the track carriage by an actuator link which allows free movement at both ends. This is necessary because the angle of attachment will vary slightly as the stator mount is pivoted. I will have to leave myself some amount of adjustability so that I can play around with different stator mount throw lengths (distance from the pivot center to the actuator linkage) and determine what works best. For these tests, I will start with a short length of the track material alongside a single magnet group. Once I find the best throw length and timing curvature, the tracking will simply be carried out full scale with the curvature duplicated at all 4 repulsion points.

                          So that is exactly what I will be doing this week, and perhaps the week after as well. I don't want to rush this through too fast, because each step needs to be precise to work together as I intend. With this knowledge under your hats, maybe someone will race ahead and complete this before I do, and that is fine with me. That's why I am showing and explaining everything I do as I actually do it. To my way of thinking, it seems best to give everyone as much information as possible. That way, if something happened to me then at least there would be people (I hope) who would carry this project forward and finish what I started based upon the information I have provided.

                          Thanks to everyone for your encouraging support,

                          Rick
                          Last edited by rickoff; 06-03-2009, 04:49 AM. Reason: sp
                          "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rickoff View Post
                            Hi Hoppy,

                            Here's what actually occurs:
                            At the tail end of a south facing up magnet group, the stator south pole swings over to repel and accelerate the south group. After that brief movement, there is no further stator movement while the north facing up group approaches the stator. The stator's south pole is already aligned to attract and draw (or drag) in the north facing group in another acceleration burst. All stator movement occurs at the tail end of the rotor groups where there is repulsion effect. There is little resistance to this movement unless it is attempted before the end of the magnet group passes the stator. At that point, it becomes relatively easy to move the stator since the repelling poles are moving away from each other. The stator movement, in swinging its arc, is never faster than the travel velocity of the rotor magnets.

                            It does require a small but definite amount of energy to move the stator by hand, and when I do that it can be considered as adding input energy, but that energy is being used solely to move the stator, and is not stored in the wheel or flywheel. This is true because there is no mechanical linkage between the stator and the rotor that could provide any rotational leverage. All rotation effects are caused as a result of the magnetic interactions between the stator and rotor magnets. When I finally have the tracking/timing mechanism up and running, there will be two distinct differences between this and the hand movement method:
                            1. The timing and placement of the accelerative attraction and repulsion effects will be far better than is possible with the hand method, and will result in better accelerations and higher rpm, thus providing a stronger inertial momentum force that can then be used to drive the stator movement.
                            2. The inertial momentum of the rotor and flywheel will have to be tapped to provide movement of the stator, but will only need to compensate for the small amount of force that was required to move the stator by hand, and I feel certain that more than enough stored force will be available to do that efficiently.

                            Do you follow my reasoning, and if so do you agree with it? It's okay if you disagree, of course, as long as you carefully review what is actually occurring. I have tried to provide very detailed descriptions of the forces involved, and how they actually interact during rotation, but I know it still may be difficult for some to understand clearly unless they see and experience it firsthand and up close. I wish that I could provide better video (top down views and closeups) to more clearly show all this, but I have tried to show the entire apparatus in any rotational views so that people won't suggest that something out of view is aiding rotation. The top down overhead views haven't been possible since I have the apparatus set on a tabletop, and my camera tripod won't go high enough. I could set the apparatus on the floor, but still the overhead view is not good because the bulky PVC stator arm and stator mount blocks any good views of the working relationships that would otherwise be possible. The new stator will be on clear Lexan, and then all will clearly see what the working relationships and interactions are.


                            Best regards,

                            Rick

                            Hi Rick

                            I appreciate your detailed description of the interraction of forces between the rotor and stator. My thought process on this very interesting concept is based on observing the interraction of two similar magnets placed on a low friction surface whereby like poles repel. The distance separating two opposing magnets when one magnet is moved by hand stays constant. From this observation, I am finding it difficult to see how the repelling force can add energy to accelerate the rotor when the energy for motion of the stator is taken from the rotor. I can see that there is an attractive force between the approaching rotor and stator magnets but I see the effect of this on the rotor being cancelled by the loss of kinetic energy in the rotor as a result of repulsion and other frictional losses in the system. I'm probably missing something here, so I would appreciate your corrective comments.

                            Regards
                            Hoppy

                            Comment


                            • Update and more questions

                              Hi Rick,

                              I will try to include an updated pic of my unit.

                              Questions and problems . First, what are the part #'s or some type of positive ID for the track and rollers that you are trying to use. I spent an hour at Lowes today and didn't find anything made of polyethylene.

                              Second: Stator magnet problem. I have the identical BC62 rim magnets from K&J Magnetics that you purchased for my NEW 26" (22 3/4") wheel. I added a solid 3/4" pine plywood circular flywheel to the bicycle wheel with a 28" diameter and about a six inch width. I have made four groups of ten magnets each spaced evenly at approx. 5/8" around the wheel which gives me a five inch or so space between each group using double magnets for each place. AFAIK, that part is identical to your setup. The gotcha is the stator magnet. Mine was removed from a multi platter SCSI hard drive and measures 3/16" thick and 1 & 3/4" at the furthest points. I also purchased a large lot of sixty HD magnets from ebay and so far have failed to come up with your particular combination of 1/4" thick by 1 & 1/2" end to end.

                              The reason that I state this as a problem is that I am unable to get the rotation that you are attaining. Mine will not move the wheel at all or very slightly at 1 & 3/4" above the rim magnets. When I lower it to and inch or so, it will rotate through a group or two before slowing down and stopping unless I give it a push to get it going, but even then it will slow and stop in less than two or three revolutions when moving the stator. I have changed the spacing from around a half inch up to over an inch, but same result. I feel like the bearing on the new wheel is not as loose as the old wheel although I have loosened it till it's almost sloppy. I may have to remove the grease and add Lubrilon to the bearings, but I can't get that until I get back home in a week or so. The old wheel without the flywheel would move at 1 & 3/4" above the magnets, but not very well. This is very frustrating after watching yours move so easily .

                              If you know where I might find an identical stator magnet to yours I would appreciate it. I bought a couple of special curved magnets that have not arrived yet that may or may not behave better. At some point we will have to be able to find a standardized magnet for the stator.

                              Later,
                              Carl

                              [IMG]c:\UpdRPD01.jpg[/IMG]
                              Attached Files

                              Comment


                              • Reply to Carl:

                                Originally posted by Spearmaster View Post
                                Hi Rick,

                                I will try to include an updated pic of my unit.

                                Questions and problems . First, what are the part #'s or some type of positive ID for the track and rollers that you are trying to use. I spent an hour at Lowes today and didn't find anything made of polyethylene.

                                Second: Stator magnet problem. I have the identical BC62 rim magnets from K&J Magnetics that you purchased for my NEW 26" (22 3/4") wheel. I added a solid 3/4" pine plywood circular flywheel to the bicycle wheel with a 28" diameter and about a six inch width. I have made four groups of ten magnets each spaced evenly at approx. 5/8" around the wheel which gives me a five inch or so space between each group using double magnets for each place. AFAIK, that part is identical to your setup. The gotcha is the stator magnet. Mine was removed from a multi platter SCSI hard drive and measures 3/16" thick and 1 & 3/4" at the furthest points. I also purchased a large lot of sixty HD magnets from ebay and so far have failed to come up with your particular combination of 1/4" thick by 1 & 1/2" end to end.

                                The reason that I state this as a problem is that I am unable to get the rotation that you are attaining. Mine will not move the wheel at all or very slightly at 1 & 3/4" above the rim magnets. When I lower it to and inch or so, it will rotate through a group or two before slowing down and stopping unless I give it a push to get it going, but even then it will slow and stop in less than two or three revolutions when moving the stator. I have changed the spacing from around a half inch up to over an inch, but same result. I feel like the bearing on the new wheel is not as loose as the old wheel although I have loosened it till it's almost sloppy. I may have to remove the grease and add Lubrilon to the bearings, but I can't get that until I get back home in a week or so. The old wheel without the flywheel would move at 1 & 3/4" above the magnets, but not very well. This is very frustrating after watching yours move so easily .

                                If you know where I might find an identical stator magnet to yours I would appreciate it. I bought a couple of special curved magnets that have not arrived yet that may or may not behave better. At some point we will have to be able to find a standardized magnet for the stator.

                                Later,
                                Carl

                                [IMG]c:\UpdRPD01.jpg[/IMG]
                                Hi Carl,

                                Flywheel looks good

                                I didn't include the part numbers yet because I thought I should try out these materials first before recommending that people install them. I purchased everything from McMasterCarr except the rollers, which I found at a local hardware store. The rollers are made by SLIDE-CO and are part # 19507 (comes as a pair). See page 1 of SLIDE-CO catalog at http://www.slide-co.com/scatalog/SC_M.pdf#page=1

                                The polyethelene track material is part # 8702K72 (two 5 ft pieces)
                                McMaster-Carr

                                As to rotor movement, while looking at your photo I began to wonder if you have the stator magnet oriented as shown in the photo while attempting to operate. If so, that's why it doesn't work well. The length of the stator magnet needs to be oriented across the rim rather than in line with it, and the 4 magnet groups must be N-S-N-S. If all of that is right and the rotor still doesn't move well then try attaching a BC62 near each end of the HD magnet. Angle them as if they were the ends of a solid C shape, and place them so the long edge is 3/16" in from the HD magnet ends. This should result in strength centers 1" apart, like with my
                                HD magnet. You can test the repulsion/attraction strength centers by setting up as in my videos 10 through 12, where I had the paper sheet with the alignment markings behind the stator. If they don't work out to be 1" center-to-center, adjust the magnets accordingly and try again. When you get it right, it will work great.

                                BTW, I think your space between magnet groups is more than 5", as mine is a bit more than 8" measured straight-line between the outer corners of the end rotor magnets.

                                Best wishes,

                                Rick
                                Last edited by rickoff; 06-04-2009, 07:27 AM.
                                "Seek wisdom by keeping an open mind to alternative realities, questioning authority, and searching for truth. Only then, when you see or hear something that has 'the ring of truth' to it, will it be as if a veil has been lifted, and suddenly you will begin to hear and see far more clearly than ever before." - Rickoff

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