"RICK'S PIPE DREAM" Magnetic Motor-Generator

[rickoff]

Pipe Dream Update

Hi folks,

Yes, I could add back the birch flywheel ring for weight, as labrat suggested, and I'm sure that would help out with inertia. I can also lower the slider bar to narrow the gap beween the stator and rotor magnets, and gain torque and speed. In fact, I have lowered the gap to 1 inch from the previous 1.5 inch gap used in the earlier tests, and have also decreased the amount of track deflection at the end of the track to reduce resistance. I made a new video showing this modification, which can be seen here: YouTube - Video #25, "Rick's Pipe Dream" Magnetic Motor-Generator Project

The bottom line is that I was able to go 180 degrees, beginning at repel point #1 as in the previous tests, and of course that is much better than what was possible before. So it looks like the track system isn't quite dead in the water just yet. I'll do some more tweaks and see if I can improve it any more. By adding short track segments to the areas between magnet groups, so as to steer the carriage on course for approaching groups, I am sure that the rotor could make it all the way around given just a little more assistance. That might be had simply by lowering the stator another 1/8 to 1/4 inch to produce more speed and torque. I feel certain that would at least get us through a third magnet group. And with the flywheel added, it may be possible to do 360 degrees. I think the rotation would grind to a halt soon after, though, unless the rotor is given a hand spin to start. If spun up to 100 rpm, I would guess that the rundown time to zero rpm would be extended out fairly well. Doing the rundown test will yield some useful information, and I would do that in three tests:
1. First, without the stator carriage mounted.
2. Next, with the stator carriage mounted and operational.
3. And finally, with the flywheel ring added.

For each test, I will spin the rotor up to precisely 100 rpm usng an external means. The rundown times will tell us a lot.

I may also repeat those tests wth the rotor groups all configured North facing up, and with the stator magnet rotated 90 degrees. It may be possible to move the stator just enough to overcome the brick wall repulsion effect at the lead end of each magnet group. Might as well explore the possibilities before digging into additional or alternative methods. I'll keep plugging away at this. We may be some distance away from a successful self runner, but a long long ways from failure.

Best regards to all,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Mark:

Rick it would be helpful if you could put a link to each new video into your posts as you load them. I hope to be viewing a self runner soon! Keep up the great work and thanks.

Hi Mark,

Sorry that the links aren't available in some of my posts, and that is because I usually post information about a pending upload before it is completed, and therefore do not know the link address yet. I'll try to include links whenever possible. You can also go to my Channel on YouTube YouTube - TheRickoff's Channel, and you will find the latest video listed first there. I suggest keeping a Favorites link to that on your computer. You can also go to the Videos page at the Pipe Dream website Videos where you will not only find the YouTube link shown above, but also individual links to all my videos, plus a brief description of the contents for each one.

Hope that helps. Best 2 U,

Rick

[groundhog]

Rick, U OK?

Just checkin' to see if you're ok, as you haven't posted lately, and making sure you weren't getting 'convinced of the profitability of silence' by anyone. LOL. No, but seriously, was wondering on your progress and had a thought for your consideration.

If you were to imagine a camera mounted in the position of the stator and it took a snapshot of the best position of each of the rotor magnets below as they passed by relative to the stator when you moved the stator by hand. Then, instead of moving the stator you kept it stationary and oriented the rotor magnets below in the position as it appeared in each 'snapshot', wouldn't that accomplish the same thing without having the frictional drag of moving the stator? I hope I've communicated this visualization well enough to explain my thinking...

I do realize that you might have to mount a wider piece of sheet metal to the poly-carbonate ring to accommodate the wider magnet arrangement, but just a thought. In my mind I see the rows of magnets on the rotor in a succession of sort of semi-spiral or an elongated S patterns... maybe even just diagonal lines relative to the stator to accomplish this method. You could then sort of overlap the rows (start a new row before the end of the last one has passed by the stator) if needed to help with any sticky spots and have them all North or all South facing. Well, I'm attaching a rough drawing of this so you can see what I'm trying to say...

What do you think of this idea? Would it be possible or am I barking up the same futile tree as others have in the past? I am in process of acquiring materials for my build and was thinking that I might try that method to see how it responds.

Many thanks and I hope all is going well on your testing. I look forward to your next round of vid's. Keep up the excellent work!!

[rickoff]

Reply to Groundhog:

Hi Groundhog,

Yes, all is fine. I took some time off to get together with family at my cottage, but am back home now. The project continues, and I will be explaining the changes that I will be implementing.

Regarding your idea, yes it certainly is possible to arrange the rotor magnets to move their relationship to the stator, rather than physically moving the stator. You will find, though, that it is much trickier do do this than it would appear. Still, I do encourage you experiment using all possible means and combinations, and to report your results. I have plans to conduct many experimental magnet layouts, but can only do one at a time. You might consider testing some layouts on 1/16" thick sheet metal strips attached to a wood flywheel ring such as the one I built. The 4" width of the ring would allow wide ranging placements, and the sheet metal attachments would allow for quick rearrangements and adjustments.

Best regards to you,

Rick

[gene gene]

Hi Rick,

Good to hear from you, I was starting to worry about you, it's been awhile since your last post. Family time really is the best.

I just can't seem to get a dollar ahead here to build a pipe dream set up, but could wait no longer to test some ideas, so I clamped a piece of angled iron in my work mate table, and mounted a salvaged, rusty, noisy, bike wheel in it and the testing has begun.

At this time I have only some salvaged magnets from microwaves aprox 2 1/4" X 1/2" round w/ 3/4" hole, some stronger than others, but quite strong especially in repulsion. I read somewhere that magnets used only in repulsion will eventually loose their strength, is this true?

I have found that 7 mags works out well with my spoke spacing and will try an even number 2 or 4 moving stater mags to hopefully push through the sticky spot. I will keep you updated on progress and post some pics here or in your mostat thread if you would prefer, for a pipe dream it is not. I do not know how to post thumbnails but feel that it would help conserve thread space if used. That's all for now.

Buy the way, your build is a beautiful thing.

Best to you,
Gene

[rickoff]

Reply to Gene:

I read somewhere that magnets used only in repulsion will eventually loose their strength, is this true?

I have found that 7 mags works out well with my spoke spacing and will try an even number 2 or 4 moving stater mags to hopefully push through the sticky spot. I will keep you updated on progress and post some pics here or in your mostat thread if you would prefer, for a pipe dream it is not. I do not know how to post thumbnails but feel that it would help conserve thread space if used. That's all for now.

By the way, your build is a beautiful thing.

Best to you,
Gene

Hi Gene,

Ceramic and alnico magnets working in repulsion do lose strength, but that won't be a problem with neodymiums.

Thumbnail photos actually take up more thread space than the large photos that I show here. My photos are stored on a free SkyDrive file server located elsewhere, and the thread here only links to them, while thumbnails and files uploaded to the EnergeticForum server actually do take up storage space.

Feel free to show a photo of your bike wheel and magnet setup. Anything that works can easily be adapted to the Pipe Dream build.

Best regards,

Rick

[rosco1]

Roil oil

Hi Rick,

Just thought I'd pop in and pass on something that might aid you.

There's an oil based metal "conditioner" available here called "Roil Oil" and it's certainly worth a look as it will help reduce any friction issues you may be encountering.

If you get access to the videos via the manufacturers website, I'm sure you'll be impressed with just how slippery this stuff makes things.

It would be the perfect treatment for roller bearings or where a shaft contacts a bush, etc.

[rickoff]

Reply to Rosco:

Hi Rosco,

Thanks for the suggestion. I am currently implementing a design enhancement that will utilize a cam located centrally on the bike wheel, and this will contact a roller that will be connected to a shortened version of the current slider carriage. I do plan to use a lubricant to reduce friction between the cam and roller. I’ll soon be explaining the use of the cam action, and the alterations of the slider carriage and stator mount.

The Roil does look like a good product. I watched a demo here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1VUxtHn7JM

Another similar product (Friction Master) and test procedure is shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkvLVNI6T-s&feature=related

Best regards to you,

Rick

[rickoff]

HJ style stator magnet now available

Hi folks,

I finally heard back from the company I mentioned in post #66, on page 3 of this thread. http://www.energeticforum.com/54414-post66.html I had asked them for a quote on constructing bonded neodymium arc magnets to drawing specs that I had supplied. Here is their drawing of the magnet which they say they could supply given 6 to 8 weeks lead time.


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These magnets would be magnetized axially, with the North and South poles at opposite ends. The following is their price per quantity quote:


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I'd love to try out a pair of these, but really couldn't think about it unless I could get them for the $37 price, and that requires an order of 150 magnets. If enough people are interested in acquiring these then perhaps we could pool an order for 150 of them, so let me know if any of you are so interested.

See also post #43 on page 2 for further info about how these magnets were utilized by Howard Johnson. http://www.energeticforum.com/54097-post43.html

It's interesting to note that the pdf files sent to me by the manufacturer were labeled, "Dell Laser MFP 1815," which would indicate that the company is already supplying these to Dell Computer for use in a laser printer. Perhaps a deal could be worked out with Dell to buy just a few of these magnets from their stock. We certainly wouldn't want to buy a printer just to get a magnet.


Best to all,

Rick

[groundhog]

Banana Magnets

Rick,

I would also love to try those Banana Magnets, if you get some interest from others, I could chip in for about 6 at the $37 price.... and that will allow a three staggered pair setup similar to Howard Johnson's rig.

Rickoff - 2
groundhog - 6

....only 142 more to go.... any other takers???

It's good to hear you're OK and glad you got some quality family time...that's harder and harder to come by these days, eh?

-rick;-)

[rickoff]

Reply to Groundhog:

Hi Groundhog,

I hope we do get some more interest in these HJ magnets, and yes - the 3 staggered pairs would be optimal.

In case others don't know exactly what we are talking about, here's a cutaway view of Howard Johnson's magnetic motor-generator showing the staggered magnet pairs.


In the above drawing, it may look like a long magnet is paired with a short one, but that isn't so. They are of equal length, and the cutaway shows that they are encased in some non-magnetic material (the reddish-brown color). These arc magnets rotate around the curved bar magnets which are centrally located, and similarly encased. The knurled knob acts as a speed control by moving the curved bar magnets into or out of direct alignment with the arc magnets. To build this particular configuration, one would have to locate the curved bar magnets of the correct dimensions. These curved bars could also be called arc segment magnets, or motor magnets.

You may have noticed, at the bottom of my previous post about these magnets, that the manufacturer is (or has been) supplying these to Dell computer for use in a laser printer. Strange how they just happen to be the same dimensions as the HJ magnets, huh? And even stranger is the fact that their drawing is dated May 11, 2009, which is somewhat after I sent them my drawing and specifications based upon the HJ patent. I noticed that a note at the bottom of the drawing they sent me said that those magnets were to be supplied unmagnetized, so I guess Dell does their own process with them. I'm thinking it may be worth contacting Dell to see if a deal can be worked out directly with them to supply us with some of these. They probably bought these in a much larger quantity than what is shown in the price quote list, so may have bought them for $20 or less per magnet. I'll fire off an inquiry to Dell to see what I can find out about that.

Best 2 U,

Rick

[groundhog]

Dell Printer

I also did some internet searching on that printer model # that you gave in your post. It seems that the printer is not getting very good reviews and not doing too well in the public sector as it is pricey and not performing well. If those magnets are specific to that model then maybe Dell would love to have another 'option' for those magnets right now! LOL! Hopefully you will get a favorable response on that front! Or maybe they would even like an avenue to 'dispose' of the returns they are receiving on that model without taking a total loss on them.

Thanks again for your efforts Rick!

rick;-)

[rickoff]

My correspondence with Dell

Here's my note to Dell Computers concerning the arc magnets, and their response:

I am looking for several magnets identical to the bonded neodymium arc magnets used in your Dell Laser MFP 1815 printer, and manufactured by Dexter Magnetic Technologies. These are too pricey from Dexter in the relatively small quantity that I would want, and I am wondering if you would consider selling me some of your stock, which obviously qualified for quantity discount pricing. These magnets are the exact dimensions that I need, and hopefully they are magnetized axially, with north and south poles at opposite ends, which is the configuration I require. Please advise as to whether or not you can accommodate this request.

Answer from Dell:

“We don’t sell the magnets separately. They are only available as part of the imaging drum kit, part # PHDR51C, which sells for about $150. Also, there is no information available as to how these are magnetized.”
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Looks like this won't be a viable option, so we will need to come up with an order for 150 of these from the manufacturer somehow if we want them.

Rick

[Cloxxki]

Rick, would you know, in that cutaway view of Howard Johnson's magnetic motor-generator, why the paired magnets seem to be connected laterally on 2 points with rods? Is that there just to emphasize their spacing, or is HJ doing something really funky with dynamic flux pulsing or whatever I should call it?

Also, what is your exact reason at this stage to seek these specific magnet? Will more power help, or might these manage to solve a specific problem? I propbably missed this somewhere.

If your current device will not overcome friction, that means that either the load it will eventually be able to run will be lower than the current amount of friction, or the timing is not quite close enough yet. It seems to my simple mind that fighting friction (albeit one of my favorite topics) is something to only award more effort to when the self-running rpms get into the triple digits. When you starting this project, you most of all people knew that the most important thing to get results, would be a smart way to get the status to switch sides.

All the best,
J

[rickoff]

Reply to Cloxxki:

Rick, would you know, in that cutaway view of Howard Johnson's magnetic motor-generator, why the paired magnets seem to be connected laterally on 2 points with rods? Also, what is your exact reason at this stage to seek these specific magnet? Will more power help, or might these manage to solve a specific problem? I probably missed this somewhere.

Hi Cloxxki,

The rods connecting the staggered pair arc magnets simply align them at the desired spacing and overlap. There is no hidden function to them.

Actually, I have been working at obtaining these magnets even before this thread started. I would really like to try out a true Howard Johnson configuration, but that has been impossible with neodymiums until this company started manufacturing bonded neodymium arc magnets. I did try out a variable spacing HJ configuration with my rotor magnets, and it actually did work to give me 360 degrees rotation from a dead stop. It was very slow, however, and hit the brick wall effect at 360 degrees. Of course that was using my single hard drive magnet, and I can imagine that would have had better results using the HJ style magnets in a staggered pair with perhaps 3 pairs strategically located and timed.

If your current device will not overcome friction, that means that either the load it will eventually be able to run will be lower than the current amount of friction, or the timing is not quite close enough yet. It seems to my simple mind that fighting friction (albeit one of my favorite topics) is something to only award more effort to when the self-running rpms get into the triple digits. When you starting this project, you most of all people knew that the most important thing to get results, would be a smart way to get the stator to switch sides.

I wanted to start with the most simplistic approach possible for moving the stator, and of course this would be the straight line approach. The only problem with this method is that all of the movement must happen after the last magnet of a rotor group passes below the stator. It is at that point in time when you want the stator magnet to very quickly realign its opposite pole to the tail end of the rotor group in strong repulsion. This is impossible to achieve with the track method, as it would require a very sharp bend in the track which the tracking wheels would see as a wall slam. The only possibility for retaining a straight line movement of the stator would be through magnetic interactions, and I believe that I mentioned this possibility few posts back. Before I would go that route, though, I'd like to attempt additional mechanical means of achieving stator movement. I am glad that I did try out the straight line slider method, because the tests so far have been very helpful and revealing in that they have shown me exactly what needs to be changed, and here's what I am working on:

I am separating the stator magnet from the carriage. The carriage is being shortened and made lighter, and I will be attaching a roller horizontally at the inward end. The roller will ride against a two lobed cam with the lobes 180 degrees apart, and the cam timing will be adjustable. I need 4 stator movements per revolution, and the two lobed cam will provide that. When a lobe is advancing, it will push against the roller and rapidly move the carriage outwards about 1/4 inch. When a lobe retreats, light return spring pressure will cause the roller and carriage to follow the cam back 1/4 inch. Now the stator magnet must move 5/8 inch, after which it will move an additional 5/8 inch of its own accord due to attraction at the lead end of a rotor magnet group. The tests have confirmed this. Turning a 1/4 inch carriage movement into a 5/8, or even 3/4 inch, stator movement is not a problem. My original idea was to mount the stator magnet on a pivoting assembly, and this is exactly what is needed. The stator magnet will swing in an arc having a radius defined by the pivot point. At the opposite end of the pivoting stator mount, a linkage rod will connect to the slider carriage. This connection will be relatively close to the pivot point, and the stator magnet will be farther away from the pivot. Thus, a small (1/4") movement of the linkage rod will yield a wide (5/8" to 3/4") swing of the stator magnet. There is no resistance to movement after the last rotor magnet of a group passes the stator, and the only thing that slowed rotation at that point during the track tests was the attraction force wanting to reverse rotation. Quick movement at that point negates the attaction force and instead produces the repulsion effect that is needed. Not much force is required to bring the stator into repulsion, since the rotor group is continually moving away from the stator as it is being moved. It would be very difficult to attain maximum repulsion, as the movement would have to be instantaneous, but I have no doubt that significant repulsion effect can be achieved, and any amount of repulsion will guarantee continuous rotation. By making the cam timing adjustable, I may actually be able to advance the timing so that the movement begins slightly before the last rotor magnet passes the stator, and this would be highly advantageous if it can be done. It was impossible to have movement during the progression of a rotor group by the track method, as this caused considerable resistance of 4 to 6 ounces at the 1.5" stator to rotor gap. At a 1" gap, this force increases to around 12 ounces. The same resistance would be imposed between the roller and the cam, of course, but a cam located at the bike wheel axle is capable of overcoming a far greater resistance than a track at the outer perimeter. I am setting up a test to show how much resistive drag can be applied at the axle without halting rotation, and don't know the figure yet, but I do know that attempting to stop the rotor by gripping the axle hub with my fingers proves quite difficult, while quite the opposite is true if the track is gripped instead.

I hope this explanation is clear enough to povide some insight into what is needed, and how I am going about the changes. If I can find a little extra time, I will try to draw a diagram to show how the setup will function. You may be wondering how I will construct and attach the cam, and my idea for this is to use a single sprocket rear hub either for the actual cam, or as a base for it. I could certainly grind the sprocket down so that I have the two cam lobes needed, and I can use the click stops to rotate the sprocket cam for timing adjustment. Sad thing is that I bought a new sprocket when I bought my new rear wheel, but can't find it now. Had it in my garage, but it is gone now and I suspect that someone made off with it while my garage door was open. I often leave it open while I'm cutting my lawn. I've been hoping to find a used sprocket hub at the local recycling center, but no luck as of yet. When it gets to the point where I need it to make things work, I will buy another one if need be. Too bad to use a new one for that purpose, though, when an older one will work just as well. Oh well, that's the way things go.

Best to all, Rick