The sling effect...and many other questions.

[navigator]

Hello, I have been lurking around here for over a year and want to first thank everybody who contributes to this forum. It is very informative and many of the members are incredibly knowlegdable, I am very thankful to have found this forum. I have very little formal education in electronics, mechanical engineering and physics, 99% of what I know I have learned from searching the internet, so I aplogize if my questions seem elementary.

The idea for my OU device would be similar to harnessing the vibration caused by an out of balance wheel spun by an electric motor. Harnessing the vibration, by transferring the extra force of the vibration into a flywheel, instead of what normally happens...the kinetic energy destroying the chasis of the car.


Here is an animation of the mechanics...

[IMG][/IMG]

Found here

The blue is the input side and red is the output side. At 12:00 the red arm and shaft begin accelerating and at 3:00 catch up to and pass the blue input. The red arm is connected to a shaft which is connected to a flywheel by a one-way bearing.

The system uses a electric motor for input to the mechanical setup that spins out of balance, captures the extra force of the vibration, re-balancing or smoothing out the vibration, then connects to a flywheel, which is connected to a generator. My theory is increasing the power/force/watts enough to loop the input back to the generator and having a surplus of watts or free energy. The generator works also as a govenor. The drag from the govenor, speed of the rotation, path and distance the weight travels are all variables that have to be exactly tuned to run smoothly, otherwise there is vibration and different amounts of inertial thrust towards approx. the 5:30 direction.

What varibles am I missing?

I have built this using an Erector set and 6v motors for input and generator. After running for almost an hour screws began coming loose and had to shut it down. I am not familiar enough with an ohmeter to know what the wattage differential is from input to output is, but it is does show a flucuation from .8 volts to 1.3 volts on the output side. Not much, I know, but this is first attempt and with no other bearings than the one-way bearing. I will upload pictures if anybody is interested. Thanks.

[Electrotek]

Alfred: This is a very interesting system, one I haven't seen before. The movement of the green mass on the end of the green arm is similar to what is produced by the Thornson Inertial Engine (TIE), but your device doesn't require gears, which is very ingenious.

I'll think about this for awhile before offering any opinions, if any. However, one variable you may be overlooking is torque. This begins at the 9 O'clock position, as the mass starts to move outwards from the center, and changes directions at the 3 O'clock alignment. Using torque is one approach which may produce a workable gravity wheel, especially if the device is mounted on a secondary system such as a pendulum. However, in that application, the blue dot may need to be below the red dot as it swings back and forth.

Thanks for giving me something to think about, and I would like to see your pictures.

[Ted Ewert]

Interesting mechanism you have there. I recently built a very similar mechanism, except that the compound pendulum was free wheeling.
Just as with an out of balance tire, this mechanism will not produce any excess energy (total increased torque) around it's primary axis. Nevertheless, it will produce extra energy at 90 degrees to the axis of rotation through a lever. Just like a Milkovic oscillator, the extra force created by the imbalance must be extracted as a linear force (not torque).
Another way to produce the same rotation is with sprockets and a chain. Two sprockets with the same tooth count, one sprocket stationary around the primary axis, and the other connected to the secondary pendulum axis. This will produce the same action as you have.
I was using that type of a pendulum on the end of a rotating lever. I used 3 lb weights on the ends of the pendulum, and it beat itself to death in about 10 seconds. You need very strong joints once you start adding weight and velocity.
Using your idea in a Milkovic 2 stage oscillator configuration might produce some very interesting results. I would be happy to help if you like.

Cheers,

Ted

[Electrotek]

Another way to produce the same rotation is with sprockets and a chain. Two sprockets with the same tooth count, one sprocket stationary around the primary axis, and the other connected to the secondary pendulum axis. This will produce the same action as you have.

Ted: I've built a sprocket mechanism like that and it's not exactly the same action. The chain also moves, around the center sprocket, so the planetary sprocket turns at a two-to-one ratio.

Navigator: Here's my version of the device:



A second pulley can be added, connected to a generator. Or, the motor can be pulsed, with the output connected to a load during the faster part of the cycle. I may build one of these and see what it does. I've already found out, through quite a few decades of mechanical experiments, that an inertial system doesn't always do what is expected. edit: This one looks like it has possibilities.

[Inquorate]

interesting

@ navigator - i don't know if you've been following my experiments with pendulums and centrifugal force, but if not then i would recommend watching them, in case they save you time? there's lots of them, right from when i was playing with milkovic oscillators thru to bessler's wheel. my youtube link is below.

i like your device, and i especially like what it's doing to my head - getting my thoughts out of the box.

love and light

[navigator]

Alfred: This is a very interesting system, one I haven't seen before. The movement of the green mass on the end of the green arm is similar to what is produced by the Thornson Inertial Engine (TIE), but your device doesn't require gears, which is very ingenious.

I'll think about this for awhile before offering any opinions, if any. However, one variable you may be overlooking is torque. This begins at the 9 O'clock position, as the mass starts to move outwards from the center, and changes directions at the 3 O'clock alignment. Using torque is one approach which may produce a workable gravity wheel, especially if the device is mounted on a secondary system such as a pendulum. However, in that application, the blue dot may need to be below the red dot as it swings back and forth.

Thanks for giving me something to think about, and I would like to see your pictures.

I am familiar with the TIE, I believe he used Legos. I hoping to capturing that inertial energy and transfer it into a flywheel. If my theory is correct, the energy potential is only limited by the weight of the green mass, the speed it travels and the lenthg of the sling arm, which affects the path of travel. Increasing anyone will generate more force...based on E=mc2, if my calculations are correct, double the mass or speed it travels and quadruple the force, double both and the force increases 8 times???

I would think the torque is a direct result of the speed, weight and path the green mass, in the first animation, travels?

There are some pics attached, could not get them to upload into the post?

The top view, the input motor is on the left and output is on th right. It is a direct drive into the input side and a 4:1 pulley system from the flywheel to the generator.

The side/angle view shows the input motor, on the right, and the sling arm traveling counter-clockwise, input at 11:00 and output at 12:00. This is where the output arm begins to accelerate then catches and passes the input arm at 3:00, then at 6:00 begins to slow and the input arm catches up.

This is not a PM device, input is required to get the mass back to the top, but due to the one way bearing, when the output arm begins to slow the momentum in the flywheel continues and input is only required from 9:00 to the 11:00 position of the input arm, I think LOL. From 11:00 to 12:00 they seem nuetral, but from 12:00 till 6:00 there is positive force going into the flywheel. The one-way bearing allows the flywheel to draw from the output arm only when it is accelerating.

Its like riding a bike 10 mph, pedaling 9 mph reqires very little effort. As soon as you slow to 9 mph you feel the extra force needed to maintain that speed. Increase the force of pedaling hard enough for just an instant and once again pedaling 9 mph while traveling 10 mph requires little effort.

This afternoon the Meccano motor used for the generator(identical to the input motor)got pretty hot, the outer casing began to deform and is now dead. The replacement is seen in the pics.

Something else to think about, there are many forms of energy, most are converted into mechanical energy, the only form with no fuel associated to it, only convert to it from other forms. We have placed mechanical objects in the path of wind, placed mechanical objects in the path of water, to harness or capture kinetic energy and convert it into mechanical energy. It only makes sense to place solid objects in the path of rotating objects, the fuel for mechanical energy is air/gas, water/fluid and spinning solid objects.

[Electrotek]

I am familiar with the TIE, I believe he used Legos. I hoping to capturing that inertial energy and transfer it into a flywheel. If my theory is correct, the energy potential is only limited by the weight of the green mass, the speed it travels and the lenthg of the sling arm, which affects the path of travel. Increasing anyone will generate more force...based on E=mc2, if my calculations are correct, double the mass or speed it travels and quadruple the force, double both and the force increases 8 times???

I would think the torque is a direct result of the speed, weight and path the green mass, in the first animation, travels?

There are some pics attached, could not get them to upload into the post?

The top view, the input motor is on the left and output is on th right. It is a direct drive into the input side and a 4:1 pulley system from the flywheel to the generator.

The side/angle view shows the input motor, on the right, and the sling arm traveling counter-clockwise, input at 11:00 and output at 12:00. This is where the output arm begins to accelerate then catches and passes the input arm at 3:00, then at 6:00 begins to slow and the input arm catches up.

This is not a PM device, input is required to get the mass back to the top, but due to the one way bearing, when the output arm begins to slow the momentum in the flywheel continues and input is only required from 9:00 to the 11:00 position of the input arm, I think LOL. From 11:00 to 12:00 they seem nuetral, but from 12:00 till 6:00 there is positive force going into the flywheel. The one-way bearing allows the flywheel to draw from the output arm only when it is accelerating.

Its like riding a bike 10 mph, pedaling 9 mph reqires very little effort. As soon as you slow to 9 mph you feel the extra force needed to maintain that speed. Increase the force of pedaling hard enough for just an instant and once again pedaling 9 mph while traveling 10 mph requires little effort.

This afternoon the Meccano motor used for the generator(identical to the input motor)got pretty hot, the outer casing began to deform and is now dead. The replacement is seen in the pics.

Something else to think about, there are many forms of energy, most are converted into mechanical energy, the only form with no fuel associated to it, only convert to it from other forms. We have placed mechanical objects in the path of wind, placed mechanical objects in the path of water, to harness or capture kinetic energy and convert it into mechanical energy. It only makes sense to place solid objects in the path of rotating objects, the fuel for mechanical energy is air/gas, water/fluid and spinning solid objects.

That E=MC2 equation is how much energy E it takes to accelerate a mass M to the speed of light C. Einstein referred to the equation as "the inertia of energy", or "the inertial equivalence of mass and energy". When dealing with slower speeds we have the force equation F=MV2. This shows that the force increases with an increase in mass and with the square of the velocity. So twice the mass doubles the force and twice the speed quadruples the force. And, like you say, twice both and the force goes up 8 times.

Torque is defined as an off center rotation. This happens as the weight moves towards or away from the center. Changing the speed also produces torque since this will cause the center to move from is original position, giving a circular rotation an off center trajectory.

A good place to post your pictures is Imageshack, since they provide the link code to paste into your messages. I like to use the first forum thumbnail link.

Your pictures look like you put a lot of work into the device. Very innovative. Using the one way bearing was a really good idea. And if it does only take input from the 9 to 11 O'clock positions you should be getting extra energy out, due to gravity also adding speed on the downside. I wonder why the generator smoked? Do you have a load on it?

[navigator]

Interesting mechanism you have there. I recently built a very similar mechanism, except that the compound pendulum was free wheeling.
Just as with an out of balance tire, this mechanism will not produce any excess energy (total increased torque) around it's primary axis. Nevertheless, it will produce extra energy at 90 degrees to the axis of rotation through a lever. Just like a Milkovic oscillator, the extra force created by the imbalance must be extracted as a linear force (not torque).
Another way to produce the same rotation is with sprockets and a chain. Two sprockets with the same tooth count, one sprocket stationary around the primary axis, and the other connected to the secondary pendulum axis. This will produce the same action as you have.
I was using that type of a pendulum on the end of a rotating lever. I used 3 lb weights on the ends of the pendulum, and it beat itself to death in about 10 seconds. You need very strong joints once you start adding weight and velocity.
Using your idea in a Milkovic 2 stage oscillator configuration might produce some very interesting results. I would be happy to help if you like.

Cheers,

Ted

Thanks for your input Ted, I appreciate all the ideas and help I can get!

I do have a question about this system not developing more torque. When I run it without the flywheel band connected to the generator, it lurches forward when run vertically on a smooth surface and rocks back and forth when running horizontally. Hooking the generator to the system and the lurching disappears on a vertical run and horizontally it sways in an elliptical pattern and runs much smoother. That inertial force is going somewhere...?

[navigator]

That E=MC2 equation is how much energy E it takes to accelerate a mass M to the speed of light C. Einstein referred to the equation as "the inertia of energy", or "the inertial equivalence of mass and energy". When dealing with slower speeds we have the force equation F=MV2. This shows that the force increases with an increase in mass and with the square of the velocity. So twice the mass doubles the force and twice the speed quadruples the force. And, like you say, twice both and the force goes up 8 times.

Torque is defined as an off center rotation. This happens as the weight moves towards or away from the center. Changing the speed also produces torque since this will cause the center to move from is original position, giving a circular rotation an off center trajectory.

A good place to post your pictures is Imageshack, since they provide the link code to paste into your messages. I like to use the first forum thumbnail link.

Your pictures look like you put a lot of work into the device. Very innovative. Using the one way bearing was a really good idea. And if it does only take input from the 9 to 11 O'clock positions you should be getting extra energy out, due to gravity also adding speed on the downside. I wonder why the generator smoked? Do you have a load on it?

I had it hooked to a 6 volt flashlight buld and then back to the battery pack



In this picture the replacement generator is hooked directly back to the battery pack.

I think that the acceleration and decceleration all in one constant rpm is a key part of this design, acceleration for postive force and the decceleration for balancing effect.

[navigator]

@ navigator - i don't know if you've been following my experiments with pendulums and centrifugal force, but if not then i would recommend watching them, in case they save you time? there's lots of them, right from when i was playing with milkovic oscillators thru to bessler's wheel. my youtube link is below.

i like your device, and i especially like what it's doing to my head - getting my thoughts out of the box.

love and light

Thanks Inquorate. I have read those threads with your experiments and found it very interesting and learned alot. Keep up the good work!

[Ted Ewert]

Thanks for your input Ted, I appreciate all the ideas and help I can get!

I do have a question about this system not developing more torque. When I run it without the flywheel band connected to the generator, it lurches forward when run vertically on a smooth surface and rocks back and forth when running horizontally. Hooking the generator to the system and the lurching disappears on a vertical run and horizontally it sways in an elliptical pattern and runs much smoother. That inertial force is going somewhere...?

Yes, it's going out at 90 degrees to the axis of rotation. This is where your power is, and not concurrent with the axis of rotation.
The vector angle is from the main rotational axis through the point of maximum pendulum extension. That point represents the strongest centrifugal force in the cycle. It's a linear force, not an angular one.

Ted

[Electrotek]

Two To One Sprocket Ratio

Ted: Here are some pictures of my TIE mechanism attempt. As the ceiling fan motor (which has a stationary shaft) turns 90 degrees, the outer arm turns 180. Obviously, this defeats the operation of the TIE, which needs a one to one turning of the base and the arm. What's needed for this chain type approach is an outer sprocket with twice the number of teeth as the inner sprocket. The Evert Rotor is much simpler since it doesn't need chains or gears. The TIE can be used for propulsion, when part of a larger mechanism, so I'm thinking it might be reversible, to extract energy from an acceleration field.

[navigator]

Yes, it's going out at 90 degrees to the axis of rotation. This is where your power is, and not concurrent with the axis of rotation.
The vector angle is from the main rotational axis through the point of maximum pendulum extension. That point represents the strongest centrifugal force in the cycle. It's a linear force, not an angular one.

Ted

I agree with that when the output arm is between 12:00 and 6:00 position, but that is when the acceleration of the output arm increases the angular momentum or torque, not linear force. But, I also believe that you should spend more time, especially after reading your thread on using Bernoullis principle, on the path the weight travels. It actually makes 2 loops in one complete revolution.

Not sure how to explain it, but from the 6:00 to the 9:00 postion I believe there is some centrifugal force that is transferred to angular momentum...maybe due to the much smaller, compressed loop it causes a 2nd sling effect, that linear force acts like a lever on the input arm also increasing torque?

Does the Bernoulli principal only apply to 2 of the 3 types of matter?

It seems that principal only effects air and water when they are spinning, causing centrifugal force?

[navigator]

Ted: Here are some pictures of my TIE mechanism attempt. As the ceiling fan motor (which has a stationary shaft) turns 90 degrees, the outer arm turns 180. Obviously, this defeats the operation of the TIE, which needs a one to one turning of the base and the arm. What's needed for this chain type approach is an outer sprocket with twice the number of teeth as the inner sprocket. The Evert Rotor is much simpler since it doesn't need chains or gears. The TIE can be used for propulsion, when part of a larger mechanism, so I'm thinking it might be reversible, to extract energy from an acceleration field.

I found a picture of the TIE, thought you might be interested...

[Electrotek]

Navigator: Thanks for those pictures. I can see by the arm position diagrams that it does the same thing my chain and sprockets was doing. As the gear moves 90 degrees, the direction of the arm changes by 180. And one thing that's not so obvious from the diagram is the bottom bidirectional loop moves much faster than the large loop at the top. When I tested my version on a pendulum, with two weights and four weights moving around the center, there was no movement of the pendulum.

This is not the same action as the better mechanism you present. With the cam lever you're using, the weight only makes one rotation per revolution and does not point backwards at 3.

I think the reason the TIE V1.0 fell over is because gravity was pulling the more extended weight down, not because it produced a net thrust.

I tested my sprocket version with a configuration which SHOULD have produced thrust. It has with other systems. When it didn't, I discovered the two-to-one turning ratio as the problem.

Here's an article about a perpetual motion machine the Russians used to change a satellite's orbit. The mass moves in a path like a tornado and can be solid or liquid.

Russian scientists test perpetual motion machine in space - Pravda.Ru