The sling effect...and many other questions.

[Ted Ewert]

Ted: Here are some pictures of my TIE mechanism attempt. As the ceiling fan motor (which has a stationary shaft) turns 90 degrees, the outer arm turns 180. Obviously, this defeats the operation of the TIE, which needs a one to one turning of the base and the arm. What's needed for this chain type approach is an outer sprocket with twice the number of teeth as the inner sprocket. The Evert Rotor is much simpler since it doesn't need chains or gears. The TIE can be used for propulsion, when part of a larger mechanism, so I'm thinking it might be reversible, to extract energy from an acceleration field.

That's sort of what I was attempting to do with my centrifugal engine. I think it has potential.

[Ted Ewert]

I agree with that when the output arm is between 12:00 and 6:00 position, but that is when the acceleration of the output arm increases the angular momentum or torque, not linear force. But, I also believe that you should spend more time, especially after reading your thread on using Bernoullis principle, on the path the weight travels. It actually makes 2 loops in one complete revolution.

Not sure how to explain it, but from the 6:00 to the 9:00 postion I believe there is some centrifugal force that is transferred to angular momentum...maybe due to the much smaller, compressed loop it causes a 2nd sling effect, that linear force acts like a lever on the input arm also increasing torque?

There will be variations in torque within any kind of non circular orbit. This does not mean that the total torque is more than the input torque.

Does the Bernoulli principal only apply to 2 of the 3 types of matter?

It seems that principal only effects air and water when they are spinning, causing centrifugal force?

The Bernoulli principal is used in gas and liquid flows to determine the relative pressure differentials created by different velocities in various configurations. It describes the relationship between velocity and pressure in terms of conservation of energy. It doesn't necessarily address centrifugal force as part of the principal.

Ted

[navigator]

Electrotek: Hmmm...I think your right about the TIE rolling over, I have learned that putting objects in motion can cause many interesting phenomenans, most are frustrating but there is always a silver lining related to centrifugal force. I appreciate the article, but I guess I won't settle for PM.

I am thinking using electric motor to run a generator. The system can be any voltage, using the max watts to begin spinning the sling arm, once spinning the input wattage is cut back while maintaining the same rpm and watt output. Once the input is decreased, depending on how much weight your slinging, the output is looped back to the input, with a surplus.

The difference in the action that I see is the path the weight travels is different between mine and the TIE. The TIE orbit of the small loop the weight makes actually intersects with the center of the main axis. I have extended the length of the sling arm to the same point and past the main center axis, I can't explain why, but it runs much slower and rougher.

My experiments have shown, the longer the sling arm the faster it runs...until the orbit of the weight goes beyond 1/2 the distance of the sling arm axis and the main axis. Then it runs slower and draws more from the battery. In the large orbit, the longer the sling arm more acceleration/ linear force.

[Electrotek]

My experiments have shown, the longer the sling arm the faster it runs...until the orbit of the weight goes beyond 1/2 the distance of the sling arm axis and the main axis. Then it runs slower and draws more from the battery. In the large orbit, the longer the sling arm more acceleration/ linear force.

This seems important. Does this mean the sling arm should be no more than half the length of the main axis? I'm putting one together with a ceiling fan motor for the chassis and I don't want to design it inefficiently.

What I like about this motor is it has a lot of unused coils when running on high. I'm going to try to use it as a motor/generator in a single unit. After I test for thrust.





The primary coils, shown as 11 in the circuit, are in the middle part of the stator. At high speed, only two of the outer secondary coils (12) are used. Some motors can be used as generators if you spin them faster than normal - as with gravity's effect on the sling arm. I think the unused coils can be wired back into the primary, at the very least.

[Ted Ewert]

Here is an idea incorporating the compound pendulum with my centrifugal engine. Think about this.



Here’s how it works: The main lever rotates clockwise. This rotates the compound pendulum via a chain connected to a stationary sprocket anchored around the central axis (6 to 1 ratio) see below. The compound pendulum rotates CCW (both parts) via the same type of chain and stationary sprocket (1 to 1 ratio).



All parts of this mechanism are connected back to the main stationary sprocket. If I rotate by hand any part of the compound lever, it will rotate the whole device. This means that all forces that act on this mechanism effect overall rotation.
The compound lever will provide positive thrust in the main direction of travel of the lever (CW), due to its alignment ("secondary force" in drawing). The faster the lever rotates, the more kinetic energy the compound lever will impart in the direction of rotation, due to its increase in absolute speed.
However, even more significant is the main centrifugal force created by the rotation of the lever. As the weight of the compound pendulum is extended out in the direction of travel, centrifugal force, at 90 degrees, will push it away from the center axis. This force translates directly into torque in the direction of travel, adding energy to the main rotation. This torque is the result of the mass of the weight, the distance from its axis of rotation and the amount of centrifugal force.
The forces are the same when the pendulum has rotated 180 degrees and has to move back towards the main axis. This direction represents a net loss of energy since the centrifugal force is working against the direction of rotation. However, the distance of the weight from its own axis is almost zero, negating the leverage which significantly reduces the negative torque.
This mechanism gives us net positive gains in energy in the direction of rotation with two distinct actions. Theoretically, the faster it rotates, the more energy will be proportionally generated.
I built this same mechanism, except without the drive to the secondary of the compound pendulum. I think the drive would make all the difference.

Ted

[navigator]

This seems important. Does this mean the sling arm should be no more than half the length of the main axis? I'm putting one together with a ceiling fan motor for the chassis and I don't want to design it inefficiently.

In this pic you can see where the weight/small screw and nut are not at the end of the sling arm. I have used a shorter sling arm length with the screw in the same place but at the end of the arm. That small difference(length of sling arm with weight in same location) makes a noticable difference in speed. The spot it is in now is where it seems to run most efficient/fastest on my setup.







I haven't been able to experiment much, that Radio Shack motor does not perform as a generator near as well as the Meccano. I am curious about your thoughts on what caused the first one to meltdown?

In your picture of the motor what am I looking at? Are those horseshoe magnets wrapped with wire as a coil?

[Electrotek]

In this pic you can see where the weight/small screw and nut are not at the end of the sling arm. I have used a shorter sling arm length with the screw in the same place but at the end of the arm. That small difference(length of sling arm with weight in same location) makes a noticable difference in speed. The spot it is in now is where it seems to run most efficient/fastest on my setup.

I guess the weight of the sling arm past where you place your weight also increases the mass, as well as the radius, and therefore the load. You can see from the picture of my basic setup that I've drilled a hole at the end of the arm for the weight, but this can be moved. Like you, I'm geared up to experiment. I've already learned that the push rods will have to be perfectly plumb and rigid. So I'll have to tack the threaded rod with my brazing torch. I've also found out there are two ways it can work, with the sling arm turning the same direction as the motor, or in the opposite direction. With the reverse direction, it produces the exact same operation as the TIE. The small loop on the left where it whips around is actually faster than the larger loop on the right. So the faster velocity with a smaller radius produces exactly the same thrust in that direction as the slower turning but with a longer radius in the other direction. However, with the rotation the same as the motor, the sling arm stays parallel to the cam, and the longer radius on the right is also the fastest. The key to getting the TIE off the ground may be to use three gears.

I haven't been able to experiment much, that Radio Shack motor does not perform as a generator near as well as the Meccano. I am curious about your thoughts on what caused the first one to meltdown?

This has been a puzzle to me, since I found out about it. It may be the four-to-one gear train was spinning the generator too fast and the bearing overheated. If this isn't what happened, then there may have been a time varying effect associated with the non linear input speed which produced momentary but extreme OU which over heated the coils, causing the melt down. This is something which needs to be explored further. The TPU by Steven Mark had this overload capability.

In your picture of the motor what am I looking at? Are those horseshoe magnets wrapped with wire as a coil?

The picture shows the stator, which is the non moving part of the motor. The armature (not shown) is an aluminum ring with strips of iron pressed in at regular intervals. What looks like horseshoe magnets are normal transformer type steel laminations. The inner coils are all hooked together and produce a rotating magnetic field, in conjunction with the armature. The AC input is then phase shifted with the cap and fed to two of the outer coils. The out of phase current in these two coils then repel the field which has already been induced in the armature. When the rest of the outer coils are switched into series with the primary coils in the middle, the voltage drop produces a lower speed. My idea is to keep the motor on high and use all the other outer coils, with the non linear speed input, as output coils. With the iron segments in the armature spinning past the gaps in the core, some amount of current is bound to be produced in these other outer coils, like a generator. But this is just an idea and I haven't taken any measurements yet. This specific type of rim drive motor seems to have the potential to be both a motor and generator at the same time.

[navigator]

Ted: very interesting design, it looks fairly simple, but I am having a hard time visualizing it in motion.

I am familiar with the Milkovic 2 stage oscillator you mentioned earlier and it keeps coming to mind. I want to hang my device from some fishing line and see what happens...I am debating making my own generator with magnets and copper wire after searching for a new meccano motor with no luck today.

[navigator]

I guess the weight of the sling arm past where you place your weight also increases the mass, as well as the radius, and therefore the load. You can see from the picture of my basic setup that I've drilled a hole at the end of the arm for the weight, but this can be moved. Like you, I'm geared up to experiment. I've already learned that the push rods will have to be perfectly plumb and rigid. So I'll have to tack the threaded rod with my brazing torch.

I agree. The connection points of the sling arm are the weak point in my setup. It runs most efficient for me with the connections on the sling arm a little loose to allow rotation but the opposing connections on the input and output arms are rigid. Without bearings it runs better a little loose, at least until it starts getting too loose. When starting sometimes it will bind and requires assistance to continue, but once its going I think the centrifugal force prevents it.

This has been a puzzle to me, since I found out about it. It may be the four-to-one gear train was spinning the generator too fast and the bearing overheated. If this isn't what happened, then there may have been a time varying effect associated with the non linear input speed which produced momentary but extreme OU which over heated the coils, causing the melt down. This is something which needs to be explored further. The TPU by Steven Mark had this overload capability.

I have some neo magnets and want to build my own generator, but when it comes to electricity, I am daft . Any good ideas or tips?

The picture shows the stator, which is the non moving part of the motor. The armature (not shown) is an aluminum ring with strips of iron pressed in at regular intervals. What looks like horseshoe magnets are normal transformer type steel laminations. The inner coils are all hooked together and produce a rotating magnetic field, in conjunction with the armature. The AC input is then phase shifted with the cap and fed to two of the outer coils. The out of phase current in these two coils then repel the field which has already been induced in the armature. When the rest of the outer coils are switched into series with the primary coils in the middle, the voltage drop produces a lower speed. My idea is to keep the motor on high and use all the other outer coils, with the non linear speed input, as output coils. With the iron segments in the armature spinning past the gaps in the core, some amount of current is bound to be produced in these other outer coils, like a generator. But this is just an idea and I haven't taken any measurements yet. This specific type of rim drive motor seems to have the potential to be both a motor and generator at the same time.

In theory it sounds like a good idea, I believe the key to the holy grail we are all chasing involves taking the input and using different laws of nature to develop excess of mechanical energy to loop back to the input.

[Electrotek]

I want to hang my device from some fishing line and see what happens...

This is a good idea, and I would be interested in the outcome. Normally, a pendulum will act as a torque arm when the pendulum is in the plane of rotation. This means that a rotating system will move in the direction the rotation is turning between it's center and the pivot point of the pendulum. This is a torque effect, not thrust. However, there is a torque differential with your device, since gravity is increasing the speed on the right side but decreasing it on the left side. Any movement of the pendulum will have to be analyzed from this perspective.

Another factor to consider is your use of momentary power on the input. This allows the possibility of a dampening effect after the power is switched off. I've found this is an effective way to get propulsion, even with a circular system. However, this dampening motion usually has to be perpendicular to the direction of thrust.

The way to defeat the pendulum's torque arm effect, and it's false positives or false negatives, would be to test your device horizontally. But this would eliminate gravity's input and alter your system. NASA thinks you should use a four point pendulum with a constantly level base, but I haven't done and tests yet to check the validity of this approach, regarding the absence of the torque arm effect.

Still, with the uncertainties involved with the pendulum test, I feel the only way to prove a positive result would be to do an additional test with two counter rotating units mounted radially at opposite edges of a spinning disc. Centrifugal force from the spinning would provide the acceleration field and any lift would prove thrust. In my opinion, this would likely work, using your system with intermittent power input.

[Electrotek]

I have some neo magnets and want to build my own generator, but when it comes to electricity, I am daft . Any good ideas or tips?

About the only thing I know in this area is that the faster the magnet moves, the more power the generator will put out. This is true even if the faster movement occurs only while the magnet is passing the coil.

edit: You might try designing a breakaway spring mechanism similar to what is found inside an automatic center punch. At the break point the constantly increasing input force is converted to a short high powered impulse. When connected to a magnet this will produce an output pulse with a much higher voltage than just moving the magnet with the rotation.

[Electrotek]

The connection points of the sling arm are the weak point in my setup. It runs most efficient for me with the connections on the sling arm a little loose to allow rotation but the opposing connections on the input and output arms are rigid. Without bearings it runs better a little loose, at least until it starts getting too loose. When starting sometimes it will bind and requires assistance to continue, but once its going I think the centrifugal force prevents it.

This point where it binds is the place you can reverse the sling arm's rotation. Just move the arm a little in the opposite direction as the mechanism passes this point. Then when it's running the sling arm will always point in the same direction, producing a different effect.

[Ted Ewert]

Ted: very interesting design, it looks fairly simple, but I am having a hard time visualizing it in motion.

I am familiar with the Milkovic 2 stage oscillator you mentioned earlier and it keeps coming to mind. I want to hang my device from some fishing line and see what happens...I am debating making my own generator with magnets and copper wire after searching for a new meccano motor with no luck today.

Think of your compound pendulum at the rim of a spinning disk. The disc is rotating CW while the pendulum is rotating CCW. The pendulum is fully extended at 90 degrees to the disc's axis of rotation. The centrifugal force acts like gravity and forces the weight out, away from the axis. This produces forward torque in the disc through the drive chain. Thrust is also produced by the centrifugal force of the pendulum in the direction of rotation.
This way two forces that are acting at 90 degrees to each other are both converted into forward torque.
It's a bit of a mind bender at first, but if you think about it a little it will start to make sense.

Cheers,

Ted

[navigator]

Think of your compound pendulum at the rim of a spinning disk. The disc is rotating CW while the pendulum is rotating CCW. The pendulum is fully extended at 90 degrees to the disc's axis of rotation. The centrifugal force acts like gravity and forces the weight out, away from the axis. This produces forward torque in the disc through the drive chain. Thrust is also produced by the centrifugal force of the pendulum in the direction of rotation.
This way two forces that are acting at 90 degrees to each other are both converted into forward torque.
It's a bit of a mind bender at first, but if you think about it a little it will start to make sense.

Cheers,

Ted

That does make alot more sense, I had the disc rotation wrong, although it is a mind bender lol.

For me its easier to understand by replacing the term convert with develop. Because although a device like this is absorbing some positive force/ mechanical energy and using it for a positive in the overall system, you have not dimished the velocity or force of the overall system. If energy is being converted in the overall system what are we gaining by using it?

[Ted Ewert]

You can use develop if you like, its just semantics at this point.
I think "energy" is made manifest from differentials in aetheric pressure. Just as there is pressure and vacuum in gases, the same general phenomenon occurs in the aether.
Physical movement is governed by aetheric laws of inertia, reaction and force. How exactly these properties work on the aetheric level is still a hotly debated subject. Nevertheless, this is where all "energy" originates.
Where does the energy come from to keep the electrons orbiting around their nucleus's forever? The same place planets get their energy to orbit the sun for billions of years.
In Milkovic's two stage oscillator, he is converting centrifugal energy into linear energy. In the process of this conversion, more energy is transfered to the lever than is used to maintain the arc of the pendulum. Where did this "extra" energy come from? It came from the same place all energy comes from: the aether. The only difference with Milkovic's machine is that more energy is developed from the aether than is added by keeping the pendulum swinging.
Milkovic's oscillator, although it is a relatively simple mechanism, contains the secret to free mechanical energy. I'm employing those same principals in the mechanism I illustrated above. All I have really done is to put a pendulum on a continually rotating lever. I have the centrifugal force pointed in the direction of rotation which should add "extra" torque to the mechanism. How much torque is always the 64 dollar question. There are also a hundred other mechanical parameters that can quickly erase any gains.
Nevertheless, it should work in theory based on Milkovic's oscillator.

Cheers,

Ted