Effects of Recirculating BEMF to Coil

[ren]

Hi Luc,

I will just add a tidbit that I noted with a pulse charger I was experimenting with. It was a very simple configuration, PWM pulses three power wires of about 50m in length (x3) of THICK wire (bout 2.5mm thick) with the inductive discharge vented through an output diode and sent to the charge battery. It was basically a Bedini circuit, driven by PWM. Coil was formed in a big donut shape.

I was using two 40 amp hour batteries, one of them held its charge well and the other was on the way out. So I used the good one to drive it and charged the second one. I cant be certain if the bad battery effected the configuration, but my results were similar on the front end to yours.

When I upped to frequency to the +7kHz range I noticed that my run battery wasnt seeming to discharge. For over 6 hours I pushed over 2 amps from the run battery and at the end of it I had gone from 12.82 down to 12.80. It would only show this behaviour at higher frequencies. The charge battery would jump up to 13 or 14v almost instantly, but unfortunately just couldnt hold the charge well. Could have been a different story with a good battery.


Regards

[gotoluc]

Hi Ren,

thanks for posting your PWM and coil inductive kickback battery charging experience

I also have done this kind of setup before but both my batteries were in new condition. However, same deal as you, I also had the charge battery over 14 volts but once you test it under load it has no real power

Thanks for sharing

Luc

[Inquorate]

Batteries and how they fail to store and then give up charge effectively

when we charge a battery (with any method) we must use more energy than ends up being stored in it, because we must perform real work when electrical energy is converted into chemical processes.

Then real work is done to change the potential of the chemical energy back into electrical energy..

So, even if we are getting more out than we put in, (and it seems that we are) we are trying to use an inefficient storage method..

Analogy;

We have a leaky tank of water, and we use the potential energy of the water to supply the motive force to operate a system of valves. We 'pump' the water into the ground on a cliff near a beach, and by using frequencies resonant with ocean waves and pressure on the water table (this is just an analogy, I'm not saying this would work), we cause a nearby geyser to give up more water than it took to cause the geyser..

So we build another leaky tank and put the water in it...

Then, we catch the water at it's highest point, and put it in another leaky tank..

By the time the losses from leakage are taken into account, the whole system is under unity; we can't keep the tanks full.

Why not use the energy gain immediately, to run another two systems, and have those running another four systems, etc, until we have enough gain to overcome the inefficiencies of energy storage?

Love and light

[Aaron]

battery impedance

Luc,

Not sure the impedance of your batteries but whatever you're using, the lower the impedance of the batteries, the better the gain.

Have a great trip!

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, In all my tests with pulse charging lead acid batteries, using a capacitor dump worked the best and as Bedini says you have to find the right ratios to get the battery to resonate and cause the battery to almost charge itself. Now I am not sure what method the Renaissance chargers Bedini is selling use, probably a cap dump. Does anyone know. So I would use a cap dump at a few volts over battery voltage.
peace love light

[gotoluc]

when we charge a battery (with any method) we must use more energy than ends up being stored in it, because we must perform real work when electrical energy is converted into chemical processes.

Then real work is done to change the potential of the chemical energy back into electrical energy..

So, even if we are getting more out than we put in, (and it seems that we are) we are trying to use an inefficient storage method..

Analogy;

We have a leaky tank of water, and we use the potential energy of the water to supply the motive force to operate a system of valves. We 'pump' the water into the ground on a cliff near a beach, and by using frequencies resonant with ocean waves and pressure on the water table (this is just an analogy, I'm not saying this would work), we cause a nearby geyser to give up more water than it took to cause the geyser..

So we build another leaky tank and put the water in it...

Then, we catch the water at it's highest point, and put it in another leaky tank..

By the time the losses from leakage are taken into account, the whole system is under unity; we can't keep the tanks full.

Why not use the energy gain immediately, to run another two systems, and have those running another four systems, etc, until we have enough gain to overcome the inefficiencies of energy storage?

Love and light

Hi Inquorate,

yes! very good points ... however, if there is any extra energy it is a small amount and difficult to identify. Also, I'm not aware of a way to extract it (separate it) without creating a load in the process in order to be reused again to possibly create more.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

[gotoluc]

Luc,

Not sure the impedance of your batteries but whatever you're using, the lower the impedance of the batteries, the better the gain.

Have a great trip!

Hi Aaron,

I'm using 12 volt 5 Amp hour sealed lead acid batteries.

I didn't know that a low impedance battery would take a better charge. How do we find the battery's impedance? or even measure it? Is there a battery model that you know to be low impedance that I could use to test this?

Thanks

Luc

[gotoluc]

Hi everyone,

a quick video update of the last test I'm doing before my trip out of the country this Thursday.

This test is using three 12vdc batteries in Series at source and 3 identical batteries in Parallel on the flyback recirculated side.

I find the test to be already demonstrating a good result compared to my previous test using only one 12vdc battery on each side.

It has now been running for 3 hours and the voltage at the series source is at 39.5525 and when I started the test they were at 39.7534. The interesting part is I adjusted the duty cycle to maintain the charge level voltage of the 3 parallel batteries with the attached load (bulb) and it has maintained 12.99vdc for the 3 hour period.

Once you see the video you may understand more: YouTube - Effect of Recirculating BEMF to Coil test 10

Luc

[rave154]

Great video & test GOTO, love the logic.

it makes a lot of sense to have them in parallel on the output side since that super high flyback voltage gets applied to all the batterys no matter how many there are... makes me wonder how it would work with say 10 batterys in parallel on the output side.

one little thought i had,
since it seems beneficial to have more than 1 battery in series on the input..and more than 1 battey in parrallel on the output side.... you could compare your 3-3 test ( 3 on each side ) with the bulb load.....and compare it to 4-2 test..and maybe a 5-1 ( or however many batts you have ) for a given amount of time in each case... the results of voltage on the batts plotted on a graph would make interesting viewing for sure.

since it seems to be the case that the higher the input voltage and therefore the higher the flyback voltage generated from it....would there be any way to increase this flyback voltage even further using the same amount of batts but using a different coil....ignition coil maybe?.. to see if there is a difference in the effect at all, could be interesting to feed that flyback back into the system using an ignition coil / MOT ( if its possible ).

great work

Ahimsa,

David. D

[Raui]

Luc,
When I first saw your video this phenomenon fascinated me so naturally I began to think about it and I came to the conclusion that this is an example of Aaron's 'mixing effect' where you mix the high current low voltage energy coming from your source to your coil and the higher voltage lower current coming from your flyback pulse.

I quickly drew a diagram with photoshop sorry about the crude inductor that looks like a resistor I'm not that great with photoshop so I'm not sure how to curve lines :P



Just a possible explaination.

-Raui

[poynt99]

Luc,
When I first saw your video this phenomenon fascinated me so naturally I began to think about it and I came to the conclusion that this is an example of Aaron's 'mixing effect' where you mix the high current low voltage energy coming from your source to your coil and the higher voltage lower current coming from your flyback pulse.

Just a possible explaination.

-Raui

Guys,

Please don't assume that the voltage from an inductive kickback is a "high" voltage. This is a barrier that all need to get over to improve your understanding of pulsed coils.

Understand this: the voltage level obtained in an inductive kickback is partially determined by how much that kickback output is loaded.

In the case of 3 parallel 12V batteries, this represents a HUGE load (low battery impedance) on the kickback, and this will reduce the kickback voltage to just slightly higher than the average value of those 3 batteries.

The coil is a current source really, and it will "adjust" it's output voltage according to the load in order to maintain an energy balance.

.99

[Raui]

Guys,

Please don't assume that the voltage from an inductive kickback is a "high" voltage. This is a barrier that all need to get over to improve your understanding of pulsed coils.

Understand this: the voltage level obtained in an inductive kickback is partially determined by how much that kickback output is loaded.

In the case of 3 parallel 12V batteries, this represents a HUGE load (low battery impedance) on the kickback, and this will reduce the kickback voltage to just slightly higher than the average value of those 3 batteries.

The coil is a current source really, and it will "adjust" it's output voltage according to the load in order to maintain an energy balance.

.99

That is exactly why I said higher voltage.

-Raui

[gotoluc]

Hi everyone,

last night I made a new video but could not upload it since my internet connection is down. I found a few free wireless spots so I was able to upload it today.

New Video Link: YouTube - Effect of Recirculating BEMF to Coil test 11

After I stopped the circuit and allow the batteries to rest for 2 hour the source series battery voltage recovered to 39.3958

and here are the individual battery voltage

Battery F 13.1249

Battery E 13.0817

Battery G 13.1894

and the voltage of the 3 Batteries in Parallel recovered to 12.99

This is all I can do until I return from my trip after August 8th

Luc

[rave154]

GOTO,

good stuff ( as usual ),

seeing the results is making me think of the "Tesla Switch" for some reason.
switching between 3 batterys in parallel and 3 in seriesd across an inductive load? ( and capturing the flyback to boot )

have a good trip,

Ahimsa,

David. D

[poynt99]

That is exactly why I said higher voltage.

-Raui

The voltage isn't higher. Luc is using a 39V source supply, and the kickback pulse going into the 3 x 12V batteries (that are in parallel) is going to be slightly over 13.2V or so.

So, which is higher, 39V or 13V ?

.99