Effects of Recirculating BEMF to Coil

[gotoluc]

Luc

Great video well presented. In the pulsed setup you had a low brightness bulb and two very hot resistors. In the DC model you had a very bright bulb with not so hot resistors. How does the total heat radiation in the circuit for both setups compare? The heat in the coil should also be taken into account. A comparison of the total circuit energy to heat conversion in both models is essential to reach a firm conclusion.

If the total circuit heat conversion level and therefore energy input for both setups work out similar, an alternative explanation for the lower lamp brightness in the pulsed setup could then be sought.

Hoppy

Hi Hoppy,

thanks for your post.

the new video's I have posted above demonstrates a way to test changes done to the circuit and see if the raise the efficiency or not.

However, I do not have the knowledge or a method I trust to measure total power in compared to out. It is clear as you can see the difference in bulb intensity between using the circuit compared to straight DC.

Hopefully by working together we will be able to come to a method of measurement we can generally agree upon. We maybe witnessing a birth of a new measuring standard.

Lets hope so! since the existing one I have never quite had faith in.

Luc

[gotoluc]

Hi everyone,

a YouTube user posted a comment which explains very well and my reply may also help some.

User: Can101276
I like your unconventional testing, it is crude, however it will alow you to see work being done and see how your changes effect the work performed.

Correct me if im wrong, but what I got out of your experiment was that you can get more work performed with high voltage, high frequency pulses, than with lower frequency, higher duty cycle pulses at the same voltage.
So in dummy speak, more work for same watts!!!
You are on the right track.

My reply:
Yes Can101276, you are understanding this correctly. However there maybe limits as my higher voltage tests over 250vdc the efficiency starts going down but that maybe an electronic component issue causing this. I also see efficiency starting to go down when frequencies over 5KHz are used. This could have something to do with the coil characteristics. More testing will be required to understand this better.

Luc

[morpher44]

lets get all sciency on this

Suppose your coil had several TAPS ... one at 50 turns, one at 75 turns, one at 100 turns, one at 125 turns, etc. etc. etc.
Now from each of these TAPs, bring a diode out and route it back into the
coil.
That will really piss off the magnet. :-)

[gotoluc]

Suppose your coil had several TAPS ... one at 50 turns, one at 75 turns, one at 100 turns, one at 125 turns, etc. etc. etc.
Now from each of these TAPs, bring a diode out and route it back into the
coil.
That will really piss off the magnet. :-)

That is an interesting experiment morpher44.

I'll post it at the OU Forum and see what the guys there think of it.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

[gotoluc]

Hi everyone,

Rosemary was asking me about the circuit used in my test 4 video and I drew it by hand for her and though to also post it here if anyone is interested.

I also just saw her circuit today for the first time! not much difference ... the only difference is in her circuit the flyback is created by the small inductance of a heating element and in mine it is created by a much higher inductance coil.

Luc

[gotoluc]

Posted by wattsup at OU topic:

@gotoluc

I put in some overtime and grabbed each bulb image, saved them at 1200 dpi resolution, blew em up 3fold, then grabbed the whole thing to show. I also summarized your Video6?

This is just a small technicality and would never show any sign of major disparity between what you have shown and the results, etc. But when you say the bulb is the same intensity, you then have to show how the same they are. I could see it by eye but wanted to put it here. We can make our own judgments. The bulb was never as bright as when you put it on straight DC so that is already a winner. But academia will demand more precision even though the end result is obvious.

Hope this helps.

wattsup

Added:

I forgot to mention that these photos would not be possible if your handy cam work was not so precise at each test giving the same angle shot. I must say, the whole video was very well done. An example to all.



http://www.overunity.com/index.php?a...ch=35923;image

[gotoluc]

Hi all,

I just found out that in fact there is a very large difference with my circuit and Rosemary's:



Originally Posted by SkyWatcher

Hi folks, Hi gotoluc, I did not realize that is the way you had the output resistor within circuit gotoluc. I was using Rosemary's circuit which does give more heat because I tried both ways although not sure if the coil field would reduce. Here is a cad pic of the circuit I've been using, which I believe is the same as Rosemary's circuit.


Hi SkyWatcher,

humm... you're right!... I see now there is a very big difference. In Rosemary's circuit the resistor causes resistance during the on pulse, which means it will be heated by the supply energy and then heated by the flyback when it switches off. In mine, I only wanted the flyback to go though the resistor.

Wow SkyWatcher, thanks for bringing my attention back to this since I thought that both circuits were the same.

If I were you I would think about this as you maybe getting more heat in Rosemary's circuit but if you think about it you are paying for it since it comes directly from the power supply during the on cycle.

I chose not to do that since flyback effects is what I've been studying.

Anyways, do what you think is best.

Luc

[Jbignes5]

@ gotoluc

Very interesting indeed. Have you tried the circuit without the magnet? Also have you tried the current setup with one magnet with two instead. One on top levitating and one on bottom being pushed away as well? I thought of these ideas just before bed so they might not be on target but I thought maybe you should try the no magnet and two magnets to see the range of effects you are getting..

[gotoluc]

For your entertainment and or correcting my understanding.

The below was posted by a YouTube user that I had been believing to be an engineer.

Posted by Drevtoobe (1 day ago)
Hey Luc, just a few pointers on measurement techniques for your consideration. For your temperature measurements, everything is relative to the ambient temperature in the room. How hot the resistors are is not about their absolute temperature, it is about their temperature difference from the ambient temperature. All of the information is in the difference temperature. That gives you a sense of how much energy is being dissipated.
One of your big resistors is elevated in the air, and the other one is on your table top. The average experimenter might noght realise that this makes a huge difference in your temperature comparisons between the two resistors. To make the comparison fairer the resistor on the table should also have been elevated in the air.

When you elevate the second resistor, then both electrical resistors with then have a comparable "thermal resistance" to the external environment.

Posted by gotoluc (1 hour ago)
I agree with what you are saying but that is not what is causing the huge differences.

Do you want me to do a video to prove to you how insignificant of a different what you are saying will do?... it will be a pleasure! others will see what a joke this HUGE difference you are imagining this will be.

Luc

Posted by Drevtoobe (6 hours ago)
Luc: Yes, the second resistor is hotter than the first resistor because the first resistor is not showing you all of the energy being supplied by the battery. Look at your schematic, when Q1 switches on, at the beggining, most of the battery energy is being stored in L1, and a smaller amount is being dissipated in R1. When Q1 switches off R1 does nothing and L1 pumps all of it's stored energy into R2, it discharges. You absolutely have to understand this to advance.

Posted by gotoluc (1 hour ago)
Drevtoobe, your arguments are becoming weak! Here are your explanations with my Yes or No replies at the end.

#1, Q1 switches on, Yes!

#2, energy is being stored in L1, Yes!

#3, a smaller amount is being dissipated in R1, No!

#4, When Q1 switches off R1 does nothing, Yes!

#5, L1 pumps all of it's stored energy into R2, Yes and more also.

#3 if all the energy that is stored in L1 is first going through R1 then that amount of energy will be affected by the Resistance of R1 and will heat the resistance of R1. You cannot bypass the energy that is FIRST going though R1 which IS THE SAME Resistance as R2 and dissipate it in R2 and say R2 is heating more because some of that same amount of energy that FIRST went through R1 was able to bypass the resistance of R1. Do you realize how absurd of an argument this is!

#5, are you also considering that when Q1 is switched off and L1 is sending back all its stored energy though R2 which is outputting more heat then R1, the first resistor that SAME AMOUNT OF ENERGY it had to go though (which you believe to be normal) but you are forgetting that some of the energy makes it through R2 and goes BACK in L1 and keeps a one pound magnet levitating! So in fact I'm not even close to dissipating all the energy in R2 that was able to mysteriously slip through R1.

Luc


To everyone: I am open to corrections if I'm not understanding correctly.

[gotoluc]

Very interesting indeed. Have you tried the circuit without the magnet? Also have you tried the current setup with one magnet with two instead. One on top levitating and one on bottom being pushed away as well? I thought of these ideas just before bed so they might not be on target but I thought maybe you should try the no magnet and two magnets to see the range of effects you are getting..

Hi Jbignes5,

thanks for posting.

I have already tried all your suggestions as my research is very focused on studying the effects a permanent magnet has on a coil in different conditions and so far there is no positive effects I have yet seen or measured that come from the influence of magnet/s on a coil.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Luc

[gotoluc]

Okay, here is the new video with all the measurements hopefully

The only thing I thought of after the video is I did not show the temperature of an non heated item in the room. So I measured one and it is at 24 degrees Celsius.

Video Link: YouTube - Effect of Recirculating BEMF to Coil test 7

Luc

[gotoluc]

Okay, here is my last video for the day for your enjoyment purpose only

Let's not say the words please, since we may get visitors

Video Link: YouTube - Effect of Recirculating BEMF to Coil test 8

, and to all

Luc

[poynt99]

Response to video #3 and #6, and in general

Luc,

Finally got this thing finished.

My response to your video #3 and #6 was getting a little long for a post so I put it in a pdf document.

I hope I have covered all that will explain what you are seeing in your circuits and why. I hope also that it will give you a better understanding of these circuits and how in general to test them and design with them.

I'm not perfect, and likely neither is the document. I hope it helps out though, that was the goal.

Feel free to ask for clarification on any part of it all. If I've confused more than enlightened, well sorry about that .

Cheers,
.99

[Jbignes5]

Thats odd

Hi Jbignes5,

thanks for posting.

I have already tried all your suggestions as my research is very focused on studying the effects a permanent magnet has on a coil in different conditions and so far there is no positive effects I have yet seen or measured that come from the influence of magnet/s on a coil.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Luc

That odd because in all of my dealings with magnets and coils is that once introduced into the circuit it has a varrying change on the coils ability to charge correctly. In effect changing the circuits response to the counter creation of the magnetic field compression on one side. As the fields fight the magnetic field counter charges a portion of the coils capacity.
I would have thought that compressing both ends would have made it a more intesifying affect. So if the magnet has no effect on the circuit when it is active, would it have more of an affect when it switches off generating a bigger boost to the Bemf? Like forcing water thru a tube from a bucket with a plunger in it? It should shoot farther. It's actually more like a cars piston, the on period is the firing of the piston and the after blow is the Bemf. More compression should mean more after bang. Am I not thinking right here?

@poynt99 Good job with the pdf. Seeing that he couldn't tell if what he did was accurate for power determination I would think a rerun on the dual magnet system might shed light on some new observations. Or even taking the magnets and apply them from the sides as well to see if additional lift of efficiency could be attained.

[rave154]

Gotoluc,

Facinating thread youve got here, had my eye on it multiple times a day for a while now.

could you post a schematin for the circuit used in test 8, i saw the circuit for test4 but i notice youve got a pot in there for test 8.

if you can post a schematic ill replicate this pronto.....purely for 'entertainment' of course