Effects of Recirculating BEMF to Coil

[SkyWatcher]

By the way, have you thought of an idea yet to use the coils primary magnetic field, just wondering.
peace love light
Tyson

[gotoluc]

No Tyson, I have not.

Luc

[gotoluc]

Hi everyone,

it's been a while since I've posted. Been busy making some $ and stocking up while I can for the long Canadian winter.

Tyson, user Skywatcher asked me above if I had any ideas to use this effect and I said no but honestly I always had a motor in mind

So I decided to go back to my basic idea and re-tested with a simple yet effective way to see if it has any advantages in a motor.

I made a new video and I think it is simple enough that most anyone can understand. The result are quite interesting comparing a straight DC capacitor discharge to the coil and magnet with no flyback circulation vs flyback re-circulation for the same magnet lift, measured height in the video below.

The results are as followed:

No flyback circulation using a 58uf discharge cap charged at 200V = 1.16 Joules.

With flyback re-circulation using a 58uf discharge cap charged at 84V = 0.205 Joules.

That is close to 1 Joule less for the same height ... can someone please explain what I maybe missing here ... would this not be of benefit to a DC magnet motor???

Link to video: YouTube - Effect of Recirculating BEMF to Coil test 16

Thanks for your time.

Luc

[Inquorate]

One in five

@ gotoluc - that's pretty amazing; with flyback recycling you're getting 500% efficiency compared to without.

That's quite efficient, to say the least.

What's more amazing is one would expect less than 200% percent efficiency increase.

More more more.

[gotoluc]

Hi Inquorate,

thanks for your reply and enthusiasm

I maybe missing something, so I sent a PM to Peter L. asking if he could take a look and maybe explain what is going on or what I'm not considering.

Stay tuned

Luc

[SkyWatcher]

Hi Luc, Nice video. It looks like or probably just sounds like the 200 volt test is pushing the magnet up with greater speed, though It maybe just making more noise because it doesn't have the diode feedback to cushion its fall just making it sound faster, though when visually comparing the two tests it does seem to be moving up at similar velocities. I mean as far as I can see, that would be the only thing that could be overlooked, though it doesn't really appear so. Good work.
peace love light
Tyson

[gotoluc]

Hi Tyson,

thanks for posting your observation

You are correct! I noticed this also that there is more of an impact sound without the flyback re-circulation. I'm thinking that maybe the inductive flyback reversing the polarity of the coil and pulling back on the magnet, kind of like a push pull. This could be the part I'm not considering and a motor could be designed to take advantage of both! as long as the magnet has passed far enough for the next magnet to take advantage of the pulling force.

Maybe all I'm doing is is a push push or pull pull if you reverse the magnet. But the power consumption difference is kind of difficult to understand

I'm no expert!...so I PM one ... hope he is around to comment.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

[SkyWatcher]

Hi Luc, no problem. by the way your numbers sure look very close to the ones I posted in the Anslie heater thread awhile back, my quote "Hi folks, by the way the numbers i crunched as far as gotoluc's #7 video, were wrong since I included the diodes heat output as part of the input. The revised figures are higher at 5.23 COP. For what its worth."
And the joule figures you've shown work out to 5.44 COP. So that looks like a correlation to me. Also as far as the 200 volt test being more noisy, I think its because when the magnet falls back down the diode is in conducting mode and induces current in repulsive mode and that's why it makes less noise. Check the inducing polarities and you'll see.
peace love light
Tyson

[cody]

Great work as usual Luc! I really like it that you are keeping your head on straight and searching for rational answers to these strange phenomena. Sorry i cant give you any Either way, i think its very obvious that the effect looks promising and demands further attention. Ive been playing with it too, hopefully ill have something to show soon Anyways, thank you so much for showing us the effect.

[gotoluc]

That is indeed interesting Tyson that you quoted those numbers.

I would also tend to agree that the diode is cushioning the magnet drop. The other thing is obviously the coil will make a much stronger thump sound when you have close to one extra Joule going in it


@Cody,

thanks for dropping in ... If only people understood the benefit of helping and sharing

It would move us to a higher place

[Harvey]

Hi Luc,

I posted a comment on the video, but will add it here also.

Perhaps the BEMF mode is offering a steeper fall time as we discharge through the coil. If so, then this will offer a stronger magnetic field as it is the 'rate of change' that governs this process. The faster the rate of change the greater the push.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi again Luc, thanks for comments. I have built many electric motors, large Newman type, Bedini, Adams, dual rotor air-core, small attraction motor so I have a pretty good idea whats happening in them. Reason I say this is because if we use this principle in say a Bedini type motor using repulsion, with that diode across the coil when the magnet approaches, it will repel or resist motion due to the same cushioning your seeing in your test. So maybe a solution would be to use a switch to quickly remove the diode from the circuit then reconnect it when ready to pulse the coil. Not sure how practical that switching would be but it would sure help prevent the drag that would occur if a switch out circuit like that could be devised. Let me know what ya think.
peace love light
Tyson
edit: just saw your post Harvey, I fully agree with what you said.

[gotoluc]

Hi Luc,

I posted a comment on the video, but will add it here also.

Perhaps the BEMF mode is offering a steeper fall time as we discharge through the coil. If so, then this will offer a stronger magnetic field as it is the 'rate of change' that governs this process. The faster the rate of change the greater the push.

Sounds like a good explanation to me Harvey!

The main question is, would this not benefit a motor? I would tend to think so ... if it is so, then why has this not been used before

Thanks for posting you comment

Luc

[gotoluc]

Hi again Luc, thanks for comments. I have built many electric motors, large Newman type, Bedini, Adams, dual rotor air-core, small attraction motor so I have a pretty good idea whats happening in them. Reason I say this is because if we use this principle in say a Bedini type motor using repulsion, with that diode across the coil when the magnet approaches, it will repel or resist motion due to the same cushioning your seeing in your test. So maybe a solution would be to use a switch to quickly remove the diode from the circuit then reconnect it when ready to pulse the coil. Not sure how practical that switching would be but it would sure help prevent the drag that would occur if a switch out circuit like that could be devised. Let me know what ya think.
peace love light
Tyson
edit: just saw your post Harvey, I fully agree with what you said.

I agree Tyson that the diode should be switched at the appropriate time. I was even thinking of using a Zero Recovery FWBR switched on exactly after the main switches off to redirect every side of the inductive swings back into the coil and a sensor would automatically close the switch when it has no energy benefit.

Thanks for sharing your ideas

Luc

[gotoluc]

FYI

Here is the PM exchange to date between Peter L. and myself.


[QUOTE=gotoluc]Hi Peter,

could you please have a look at my newest post. Your knowledge in electric motors would help me understand what I maybe missing.

Link: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post68769

Thanks for your time.

Luc


[QUOTE=Peter Lindemann]Luc,

Nice test set-up. Actually, I don't think you are "missing anything". You might try two other tests. 1) take the energy from the flyback, after the diode, and light a small light bulb with it, and measure the magnet jump, and 2) take the energy from the flyback, after the diode, and charge a battery with it, and measure the magnet jump.

Each of these situations offers a slightly different flyback impedance, and may change how high the magnet jumps.

As you can see, adding the flyback diode recirculation, as you have done, increases the efficiency of the system, with regard to how much energy is required to lift the magnet.

By recirculating the "flyback energy" you are simply holding the magnetic field of the coil in place for a longer period of time, at no extra cost. These are empirical results. Simply accept them.

Peter


[QUOTE=gotoluc]Hi Peter,

thanks for looking at the video and replying to my PM with some suggestions.

I have tried many of the variations of tests as you have suggested and found that all remove some of the effect and that the power collected is equal or less then the diminished effect. From all the tests I have done to date I concluded that the Inductive Flyback has much more value being sent back in the coil at 100% then trying to collect it and use it in a way we normally use power.

Thank you for confirming that I have not missed anything.

I'm not sure about it holding the magnetic field longer, since if I hold the magnet down on the coil you can feel many more time the push up compared to no re-circulating. So it appears to strengthen the magnetic field.

If you can think of a test I could do to test which one it is doing (holding the mag field longer) or (strengthening the mag field) please let me know.

Thanks for your time.

Luc