Effects of Recirculating BEMF to Coil

[gotoluc]

Wow ... thanks allot for everyone's participation

I will answer all questions I can in my next post. just give ma a bit of time to go over it all once again.

In the meanwhile, have a look at the scope shots our friend wattsup of OU Forum has posted at the topic there to see if any of you can explain why or or how come we don't see any extra activity of the wave form when the inductive collapse is switched to recirculate.

Luc

[gotoluc]

I've been wondering what would happen if we put the collapsing field into a second coil; will the second coil do real work with the 'fluffy' voltage, and how would it look on a scope?

Also it would provide a differential between a shorted coil and one energized with radiant..

Hi Inquorate,

I did test this but the problem is if you connect the diode to another coil the the other end of that coil would need to connected to one side of the first coil to complete the circuit!... so now we have 2 coils working in series and the energy is divided.

One new idea that just came to mind that I haven't tried is to attach the other end of the coil it to earth ground but I will have to use my Isolation transformer on the grid supply side to eliminate a possible coupling with the grid.

I'll add this new test on my list of things to try.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

Luc

[gotoluc]

@Tishatang,

thanks for writing your feeling of what could be going on in the coil once the inductive kickback is recirculated. Very interesting!... thanks also for posting the link at which fig. 19 is at page 6. This should be looked at also

@Tecstatic,

thank you for complimenting my methods of research and sharing
Thank you for also bringing on of my favorite researchers, user name Allcanadian up and posting a link that I have missed. I will definitely add this to my list to check into as my wheels have been grinding on finding the best motor design to best use for this effect.

@petersone,

you definitely know what you are talking about as far as I'm concerned since this is an option that I have built and tested on my project board you see in video test 2. If you look you will see a second potentiometer which is to controls the frequency of the second 555 circuit on the left side of the board to do just as you say. I adjusted the main pulse circuit at 5 khz and used the other to trigger a second mosfet from 3 hz to 40 hz. It makes a nice show of what this would look in a motor action. I found it to peek in shooting the magnet up between 7 to 8 hz. Maybe I'll do a video of it.

@SkyWatcher,

I have done that many times but I forgot to do it on the video. I just tested it now with the same frequency and voltage used in test 2 video and adjusted the pot to increase the duty cycle and at 100ma the magnet just barely starts to vibrate indicating it is starting to lift. I don't want to push my mosfet any more since I have fried too many and don't have enough spares. Also the heatsink becomes hot real fast if it's not recirculating. If I flip the switch at 100ma the magnet raises 1-3/8th of an inch or 35mm and the current drops by about 3 to 4 ma. Ya! that's a big magnet

@Bodkins,

thanks for the positive comments on the reed switch

Great suggestion idea on the single wire cap charging which may help my reed switches to last longer ... a definite thing to try

@Armagdn03,

thanks for your updated evaluation User: poynt99 of OU has posted his scientific evaluation which may or may not interest you: Effects of Recirculating BEMF to Coil

@Hoppy,

very good explanation I like it and it could very well be what is going on.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

@quantumuppercut,

yet another very good explanation hopefully Aaron and or Peter L. can test this and post their explanations or finding.

Thanks for taking the time to share also.

Thank you all for your participation

, and to all

Luc

[cody]

Hi Luc,
Its funny, i had been playing with the same stuff recently. Aaron had eluded to a method of extending magnetic fields of coils by shorting them after they are charged, which is exactly what you are doing with the diode. He was saying it could be done by shorting coils into themselves by connecting two coils in a parallel configuration and you would not need a diode for that, so that may be another experiment you may be interested in. I came to the same conclusion you have, that a diode would short one coil into itself and was trying to setup a nice display to show the effect but you've beaten me to it, nice setup and video You may need to put your current resistor in series with your diode to view the effect on the scope. So i believe this was basically the technique bob teal was using on his motors, for anyone interested in applying this to a motor you may need to add a switch to open the short circuit as to not cause drag on the motor as the magnet passes TDC. And you are 100% correct about using the short pulse duration. Thats my 2 cents.
Great work Luc,
cody

[gotoluc]

Hi Luc,
Its funny, i had been playing with the same stuff recently. Aaron had eluded to a method of extending magnetic fields of coils by shorting them after they are charged, which is exactly what you are doing with the diode. He was saying it could be done by shorting coils into themselves by connecting two coils in a parallel configuration and you would not need a diode for that, so that may be another experiment you may be interested in. I came to the same conclusion you have, that a diode would short one coil into itself and was trying to setup a nice display to show the effect but you've beaten me to it, nice setup and video You may need to put your current resistor in series with your diode to view the effect on the scope. So i believe this was basically the technique bob teal was using on his motors, for anyone interested in applying this to a motor you may need to add a switch to open the short circuit as to not cause drag on the motor as the magnet passes TDC. And you are 100% correct about using the short pulse duration. Thats my 2 cents.
Great work Luc,
cody

Wow cody ... it always amazes me to see how thoughts and ideas move in parallel ... I didn't know that Aaron was working on something similar. I also can see you have been working with this since you are understanding what I'm suggesting very well

Again that you mentioned Bob Teal is ... since he has been on my mind since I first found this effect. I believe his solenoid motor was using a permanent magnet as center plunger and operating on inductive collapsing field energy. I do believe this is why he was using switches as you mention above and that is why I was testing a mechanical switch to better study and understand this effect.

Also, interestingly enough last night I concluded that a solenoid style motor would give the best torque to energy input utilizing this effect.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

[jonnydavro]

Hi Gotuluc and everyone participating in this great thread.
I have built a few Bedini motors which have recirculated the bemf and can confirm that it reduces amp draw,whether it increases the force applied to the rotor magnet,i can't say as i had no means when i made them of measuring rpm's between a standard bedini and a recirculating one.I also used the bemf to power a small electric motor which was acting as the Rotor bearing before returning it to the positive rail.Here are a couple of vids of them including the circuits.
If these are some of the kind of things you guys are cosidering trying i think the benefits of the extra work,reduced amp draw are more beneficial than charging a secondary battery.Regards jonny
YouTube - Twin Rotor Bedini DC Motor
YouTube - DC Bedini Motor running on 3.5mA

[Inquorate]

2nd coil to ground

I've put the coil collapse to ground before, and found it works better going thru a cap or battery. Hopefully I get some time to experiment soon.

Love and light

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, great replies to try and explain this effect. Hi gotoluc, thanks for the info about pulsing without the back feed diode. So it seems then that without recirculation it is taking at least 6 watts just to budge the magnet and even more to levitate it a 1/4", compared to using recirculation which only requires
.6 watts or 600 milliwatts, sweet.
Also with the Bob Teal motor, I was under the impression he did not use permanent magnets in his rotor, although who knows he may have had different models that took advantage of this effect your showing, sweet again
peace love light

[quantumuppercut]

Luc,

I just read your debates on OU forum. He has a point about the high voltage spike being convert to low voltage, high current through the diode. The mini current running the whole coil is being convert to 1 big pulse current. However, the arguement that the energy giving out by the coil can never exceed input is debatable. I believe you can further reduce the amperage drawn as the switch is close, theoratically to zero!(resonant mode), but this take better components and is a technology issue as well as timing mechanism.

[baroutologos]

Question

With regard to BEMF re-circulation, i am urged to ask...
If i am going to utilize my PMDC motor (unite My1016) at a pulsed mode by having a (protection) diode for re-circling (shorting) the BEMF to motor.

Should i expect from this any higher efficiency? Anyone with any experience on that?

Regards,
Baroutologos

[gotoluc]

@jonnydavro,

thank you for your interest and sharing your work. I remember seeing your video that you are using both sides of the coil since this was something I was studying a year or more ago. There is no dough in my mind that my choice is to use both sides of the coil in a motor design for best torque efficiency

Thanks for sharing

@Inquorate,

well I tested routing the diode to another coil and attaching its other end to earth ground and I got nothing. So much for that idea I had.

@SkyWatcher,

it is interesting to see the difference of work done to the magnet between recirculating the inductive kickback or not but this is not the Holy Grail as if I do the same experiment using straight DC I can levitate the magnet at the same height but at a much lower voltage, at somewhere like 3 volts and 300ma which if we calculate Watts energy it come to the same if not less using straight DC since an electronic component circuit has energy losses.

What I am studying and proposing here is there is an interesting effect between an air core coil, a powerful magnet and recirculating the inductive kickback. It is not going to be simple as some may think of adding a diode and we get a more powerful motor. This will require more testing study and understanding before one can start putting a motor together that could work on this principle.

About Bob Teal. I'm only guessing his solenoid motor was using a permanent magnet as core and coils working on inductive kickback. I don't think anyone knows for sure since none could reproduce his results.

@quantumuppercut,

yes! I totally agree with what you are saying. User: poynt99 at the OU Forum has brought forward some real facts about what is going on. As I just said to SkyWatcher above, this is not the Holy Grail as if I do the same experiment using straight DC I can levitate the magnet at the same height but at a much lower voltage, at somewhere like 3 volts and 300ma which if we calculate Watts energy it come to the same if not less using straight DC since an electronic component circuit has energy losses.

What I am studying and proposing here is there is an interesting effect between an air core coil, a powerful magnet and recirculating the inductive kickback. It is not going to be simple as some may think of adding a diode and we get a more powerful motor. This will require more testing study and understanding before one can start putting a motor together that could work on this principle.

Lets see how much the interest in this topic drops now

Resonant mode would be interesting but since motors run at such low frequency I would be surprised we can get an air core coil to resonate.

@baroutologos,

I don't think it will be as simple as you think. You will need to experiment to have a better understanding of how to use this effect.

Luc

Luc

[quantumuppercut]

I don't know man,

So far I see so many OU devices in this forum. Dr. Stiffler SEC, SSG, Rosemary Ainslie circuit, many testing on LC circuit, and this experiment also contain OU fundamental. These are actual devices built my real members in this forum. It is because we do not understand the principle of "what is energy" that prevent us from being uncertain of our devices. It is okay though, it's part of the fun experience. The longer we drag this out, the more content our heart is when it is real. Like Rosemary said, "we're slowly winning".

The term electromagnetic divide into 2 terms : Electric and Magnetic. Each term has a positive and a negative base on the direction they're moving. Electric is momentum, magnetic is kinetic energy, or radiant energy. The total kinetic energy if taking account in both direction will be mv^2. Since magnetic energy is 90 degree perpendicular to electric, there is no direct interfearing to the electrical current. Puting a current into a loop or reverse it is only unity, but the magnetic component can be extract as energy without interuption of the electrical current.

It's a beautiful day outside. I think i'm na go for a walk... and wind my toroid. lol

[Michael John Nunnerley]

the fet has a diode

Hi luc, the fet does have a diode. Look at the cop 17 heater thread, there are posibilities here in an explination, apart that it is a very lively topic

Mike

P S sorry I could not answer your call, we will try again

[gotoluc]

Yes Michael,

I've been reading that topic now but there is something that I don't understand and maybe Armagdn03 can help explain how it can happen since he is the one who through his YouTube video's has tough me how to get a coil in Resonance.

Rosemary Ainslie has posted many times that the heater circuit is most efficient when it goes into Resonance and that is understandable but what I'm not understanding or not seeing yet is how can Resonance be achieved with that circuit since the resonating coil (heater) would need AC pulses to start to resonate. The only thing I can think of is the Inductive collapse collected in the capacitor is going back to the heater coil in the reverse direction of the mosfet pulse when the mosfet is switched off.

I'm not too good at interpreting the working of a circuit by looking at a diagram so I can't tell if this is what is going on here. Can you, Armagdn03 or anyone else who knows for sure please post here to let me know as I could not find anything explaining it this way in the topic.

Thanks

Luc

[Jetijs]

Luc, I just wanted to say thank you for all the work that you have done and shared with others. Keep un this great work!